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October 20, 2018, 03:18:29 pm
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Author Topic: More Mass shootings  (Read 27420 times)
swake
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« Reply #255 on: February 23, 2018, 04:11:48 pm »

Now it's coming out that it wasn't just the onsite deputy that didn't go into the building. The next three deputies also stayed outside and pointed guns at the building from their cars.

It wasn't until city police showed up that anyone went inside.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #256 on: February 23, 2018, 04:26:21 pm »

Now it's coming out that it wasn't just the onsite deputy that didn't go into the building. The next three deputies also stayed outside and pointed guns at the building from their cars.

It wasn't until city police showed up that anyone went inside.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html




Sounds about right.


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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Conan71
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« Reply #257 on: February 23, 2018, 04:35:23 pm »

I'm not saying right or wrong, but is it possible doors were locked and they couldn't get in?  My personal belief is if you took the oath to protect others that means going into the line of fire.  Whether or not I could have done it, I can't say because I've not been put in that situation.  None of us know our true values or what our actions would be until we are faced with the actual situation.  I believe there's a bit more information needed before I'm going to pass judgement and call these guys cowards.
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
erfalf
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« Reply #258 on: February 23, 2018, 08:19:38 pm »

It might be a bit worse that one chicken security guard.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/23/four-sheriffs-deputies-hid-during-florida-school-shooting/

I take no responsibility if the Post is dead wrong, but I did hear from CNN as well (which I certainly won't vouch for).
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patric
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« Reply #259 on: February 23, 2018, 08:44:00 pm »

I believe there's a bit more information needed before I'm going to pass judgement and call these guys cowards.

It wont come voluntarily.

Israel said surveillance footage of Peterson captured during the massacre may never be released.
http://www.businessinsider.com/scot-peterson-sro-parkland-shooting-resignation-reaction-2018-2
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
swake
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« Reply #260 on: February 23, 2018, 10:29:09 pm »

I'm not saying right or wrong, but is it possible doors were locked and they couldn't get in?  My personal belief is if you took the oath to protect others that means going into the line of fire.  Whether or not I could have done it, I can't say because I've not been put in that situation.  None of us know our true values or what our actions would be until we are faced with the actual situation.  I believe there's a bit more information needed before I'm going to pass judgement and call these guys cowards.

One cop does it, that could be a bravery issue. Four? That's training.

And I've really been thinking that all these cop shootings are mostly due to all these "training" companies that teach cops how to deal with active shooters and other scenarios and scare the crap out of the cops thinking that they are constantly in more danger than they really are. Combine that with the innate and some active racism and you have our overall problem with cops killing people and why it skews to killing minorities and the mentally ill.

The female cop that killed the guy on PCP in north Tulsa was convinced he was going to reach in his car and get a gun and kill her because his window was down and he wasn't following orders. It was her training that convinced her she was in danger before she ever had a hint of a weapon. A weapon that was never present.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 10:35:47 pm by swake » Logged
patric
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« Reply #261 on: February 27, 2018, 05:52:48 pm »

One cop does it, that could be a bravery issue. Four? That's training.

And I've really been thinking that all these cop shootings are mostly due to all these "training" companies that teach cops how to deal with active shooters and other scenarios and scare the crap out of the cops thinking that they are constantly in more danger than they really are. Combine that with the innate and some active racism and you have our overall problem with cops killing people and why it skews to killing minorities and the mentally ill.

The female cop that killed the guy on PCP in north Tulsa was convinced he was going to reach in his car and get a gun and kill her because his window was down and he wasn't following orders. It was her training that convinced her she was in danger before she ever had a hint of a weapon. A weapon that was never present.

So more than a week later the deputy's union decided on a story they want to be the narrative:  That the deputy hid outside because he thought the shots were coming from outside.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
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« Reply #262 on: February 27, 2018, 06:04:38 pm »

So more than a week later the deputy's union decided on a story they want to be the narrative:  That the deputy hid outside because he thought the shots were coming from outside.

That story is asinine.  Guy is outside school.  Hears shots.  Kids are running out of school, etc.  Yeah,  shots aren't coming from outside.   I really, really, try to see both sides of arguments and appreciate opposing views, etc.  But I am livid at this guy.  He needs to go down.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #263 on: February 28, 2018, 08:52:10 am »

Makes sense.  The officer thought the shots were coming from somewhere else, so he diligently went to investigate the other location where he thought the shots were coming from.  It makes sense why they want to release the video to vindicate the department.

Wait, they don't want to release the video?  That's strange...

I don't know the truth of the matter in this instance, but here are two truths:

1) An officer has about a 50% chance of being shot themselves if they confront an active shooter; and

2) Not all officer's are heroes.

I know we've been told officers are highly trained and effective, and they are.  But they hit their targets as little as 18% of the time when they have to shoot at people.  And that's pretty high compared to actual combat statistics, so I'm not bashing officers.  This isn't the target range, bullets flying in the real world it's stressful, targets move, and stuff happens.  Particularly if the other guy is shooting back.

Also, there is a story line that all soldiers, firefighters, and police officers are heroes.  While many are and the line of work certainly is conducive to heroics, it's simply not true that they are all heroes.  There are jerks, cowards, and even villains among those professions as there are in any other.  I doubt this shatters anyone's worldview, but our common rhetoric has led some to adapt the montra as a truth.  So respect them for sure, but don't expect them all to be heroes.  That's a special term even among challenging professions that serve the public.

All that to say - I would love to jump to conclusions and judge the hell out of the people who failed to protect children when in the best position to do so.  Particularly when they took a job and swore an oath to do just that.   I really think if I were in a similar situation I would automatically react by trying to help (and later stop and think "oh my God, that was so dangerous").

But I have never been in that situation. So my scorn is reserved.  If an officer really coward instead of aiding someone, then they deserve our scorn.  But it's bluster to say "I would have charged in and saved the day" if you've never been in that position.
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erfalf
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« Reply #264 on: February 28, 2018, 10:15:57 am »

I'm even more hesitant to excoriate this guy when I here from multiple sources that there was a stand down order due to the sheriff's department not being equipped with body cameras. Something isn't adding up in a lot of different areas. The officer in particular is refuting the sheriff's interpretation of what happened. I know that doesn't mean it happened his way, but at least he is taking a stand, that to me says at least something. He says he was in another building (which I'm sure could be documented). Whether or not he should have gone outside, I don't know. But I would dare say by the time he did reach the shooter, too many would have died.

The sheriff was incredibly quick to throw this guy under the bus. A sheriff that has let his political aspirations guide his decision making in the past. Again, I'll reserve judgement at this time in regards to this one single officer who was responsible for a high school roughly the size of Jenks high school (one of the larger in the state that is).
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Ed W
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« Reply #265 on: February 28, 2018, 10:42:50 am »

You know there was radio traffic during that 4 minutes. Those deputies did not act on their own initiative, instead communicating with a supervisor for instructions. There's a tape...somewhere.

After Columbine, the police there changed their policy of stopping to determine the location and number of shooters before making entry. Delay costs lives. I would expect that not all departments made the change.
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Ed

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patric
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« Reply #266 on: February 28, 2018, 11:10:23 am »

Makes sense.  The officer thought the shots were coming from somewhere else, so he diligently went to investigate the other location where he thought the shots were coming from.  It makes sense why they want to release the video to vindicate the department.

Wait, they don't want to release the video?  That's strange...

I don't know the truth of the matter in this instance, but here are two truths:

1) An officer has about a 50% chance of being shot themselves if they confront an active shooter; and

2) Not all officer's are heroes.

I know we've been told officers are highly trained and effective, and they are.  But they hit their targets as little as 18% of the time when they have to shoot at people.  And that's pretty high compared to actual combat statistics, so I'm not bashing officers.  This isn't the target range, bullets flying in the real world it's stressful, targets move, and stuff happens.  Particularly if the other guy is shooting back.

Also, there is a story line that all soldiers, firefighters, and police officers are heroes.  While many are and the line of work certainly is conducive to heroics, it's simply not true that they are all heroes.  There are jerks, cowards, and even villains among those professions as there are in any other.  I doubt this shatters anyone's worldview, but our common rhetoric has led some to adapt the montra as a truth.  So respect them for sure, but don't expect them all to be heroes.  That's a special term even among challenging professions that serve the public.

Pop culture has spent decades showing police officers acting cool under gunfire, an image starkly at odds with dash-cam and cellphone videos that show police officers panicking and killing civilians.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2018/02/26/trumps-gross-action-star-fantasy-is-the-last-thing-school-shooting-victims-need/

As for Columbine being the reference teaching tool, they dug police bullets out of kids there, too.

Stop hiding the surveillance video of the Parkland shooting
https://nypost.com/2018/02/27/stop-hiding-the-surveillance-video-of-the-parkland-shooting/
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erfalf
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« Reply #267 on: February 28, 2018, 11:31:03 am »

Pop culture has spent decades showing police officers acting cool under gunfire, an image starkly at odds with dash-cam and cellphone videos that show police officers panicking and killing civilians.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2018/02/26/trumps-gross-action-star-fantasy-is-the-last-thing-school-shooting-victims-need/

As for Columbine being the reference teaching tool, they dug police bullets out of kids there, too.

Stop hiding the surveillance video of the Parkland shooting
https://nypost.com/2018/02/27/stop-hiding-the-surveillance-video-of-the-parkland-shooting/

I have a deep seeded fear that if that video is released, the focus on guns is going to disappear pretty quick. That anger and disgust may be getting re-routed in record time.

I only fear it because I tend to think the best of people, that when called to act they would do the right thing.

But many this sheriff just wreaks of CYA so bad. Particularly curious is his change of tune on "good guys with guns".

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/06/09/brevard-county-sheriff-wayne-ivey-is-incredibly-wrong-about-good-guys-with-guns
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 11:34:04 am by erfalf » Logged

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« Reply #268 on: February 28, 2018, 12:27:55 pm »

I'm not saying right or wrong, but is it possible doors were locked and they couldn't get in?  My personal belief is if you took the oath to protect others that means going into the line of fire.  Whether or not I could have done it, I can't say because I've not been put in that situation.  None of us know our true values or what our actions would be until we are faced with the actual situation.  I believe there's a bit more information needed before I'm going to pass judgement and call these guys cowards.

Here's the oath
“I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of constable with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality,and that I will uphold fundamental human rights and accord equal respect to all people, according to law.”

There's nothing about protecting others.  
The supreme court has ruled that "protecting" isn't something police are required to do
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
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Townsend
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« Reply #269 on: February 28, 2018, 12:33:52 pm »

Here's the oath
“I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of constable with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality,and that I will uphold fundamental human rights and accord equal respect to all people, according to law.”

There's nothing about protecting others.  
The supreme court has ruled that "protecting" isn't something police are required to do
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

I worked with BA and Tulsa Cops years ago and a BA cop told me "to protect and serve" "...ain't on our cars."
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