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November 17, 2017, 10:35:09 pm
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Author Topic: More Mass shootings  (Read 11856 times)
swake
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« Reply #195 on: October 10, 2017, 11:57:05 am »


You are trying very hard to come around to the right way to look at this, but just can't see to quite get over that last little step to enlightenment - gun deaths ARE a symptom - NOT the cause!

You bring up suicides and how less successful they would be without guns, but the reality is MUCH different.  Conan posted a link about Japan's suicides - huge problem.  They have MORE per year than we have gun suicides (21,000+ in 2016) and they have essentially no guns in the country comparatively.  We have about 19,000+.  They have 125 million people - or about 1/3 our population.  So they have 10% more successful suicides by actual count with 1/3 the people - guns aren't the problem nor the solution.   To paraphrase a Jurassic Park comment - death finds a way!


We do an abysmal job of addressing mental health issues in this country, and not likely to change.  The big lie behind all the gun regulation clown show is that IF the gun regulators were truly concerned about real people and real problems, they would be working to address the big problem - NOT just try to treat a symptom.

But they aren't - they have an anti-gun agenda and are full steam ahead regardless of reality.






Different cultures commit suicide at different rates. Japan's culture is not the same as ours.
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TeeDub
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« Reply #196 on: October 10, 2017, 12:42:18 pm »

Different cultures commit suicide at different rates. Japan's culture is not the same as ours.

Here is a list of suicides per 100,000 population.   Strangely, the US is only barely in the top 20.

Lame.   I would have thought with all our guns we would have been way higher.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #197 on: October 10, 2017, 01:23:35 pm »

This is from the study I linked to:
Fatality rate by suicide method:
Gun – 82.5%
Drowning – 65.9%
Hanging – 61.4%
Poison by gas – 41.5%
Jump – 34.5%
Poison Ingestion – 1.5%
Cut/pierce – 1.2%
Other – 8%

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/

I am guessing that eating at Taco Bell is part of the 8% other.
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Conan71
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« Reply #198 on: October 10, 2017, 05:18:12 pm »




We do an abysmal job of addressing mental health issues in this country, and not likely to change.  The big lie behind all the gun regulation clown show is that IF the gun regulators were truly concerned about real people and real problems, they would be working to address the big problem - NOT just try to treat a symptom.

But they aren't - they have an anti-gun agenda and are full steam ahead regardless of reality.



DING! DING! DING!
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Conan71
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« Reply #199 on: October 10, 2017, 05:19:33 pm »

Different cultures commit suicide at different rates. Japan's culture is not the same as ours.

It's still very much a result of mental illness, regardless the method or culture.  Normal, happy, well-adjusted people don't just simply commit suicide.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #200 on: October 11, 2017, 09:33:37 am »

Different cultures commit suicide at different rates. Japan's culture is not the same as ours.


Suicide is NOT a cultural thing.  If it were, by definition, that culture would not exist.  It has definite, identifiable, often times treatable, causes that are grossly ignored here.  Japan has struggled with it for many years and that 21,000 number represents the lowest number for a long time.  The whole point - again - is that guns are irrelevant to that discussion and death finds a way regardless.  And at a much higher rate there with NO guns than here with plenty of guns.

And the anti-gunners are still trying to pull their BullSh$t Drunkard's Search approach on the US!  They need to just go sit down and color.



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« Reply #201 on: October 11, 2017, 10:00:56 am »

We do know it.

33,000 deaths a year. ten times the number of Americans killed by terrorists ever. Each year. More Americans have died from gun violence this decade than all the wars in the last 100 years. It's fracking problem.

Talk about sticking your damn head in the sand.



Had to come back to this for a minute...since we are just spewing 'stuff' around.

Jim Jones killed more than 900 with a pitcher of KoolAid.  We gotta outlaw both pitchers AND KoolAid now.

Portugese Priests started the tradition, continued by official US policy, of spreading blankets and smallpox to the First Nations people here - killing in the vicinity of 100 million.  Guns were the tiniest bit of that, killing only thousands - we had to have a much more efficient method to clear out the "debris"...    I suspect Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot were green with envy of our efficiency...   We gotta outlaw blankets now.

Hundreds killed by US Cavalry and "settlers" at Wounded Knee, Canyon Del Muerto (1805), Battle of Tallushatchee,  Yontoket Massacre, Washita River.  And many more.   But I guess maybe you have at least one point - all of these and more were done with guns, so maybe the US Cavalry and any "settlers", aka land thieves, should be outlawed from having guns!

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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« Reply #202 on: October 11, 2017, 12:16:40 pm »


Had to come back to this for a minute...since we are just spewing 'stuff' around.

Jim Jones killed more than 900 with a pitcher of KoolAid.  We gotta outlaw both pitchers AND KoolAid now.

Portugese Priests started the tradition, continued by official US policy, of spreading blankets and smallpox to the First Nations people here - killing in the vicinity of 100 million.  Guns were the tiniest bit of that, killing only thousands - we had to have a much more efficient method to clear out the "debris"...    I suspect Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot were green with envy of our efficiency...   We gotta outlaw blankets now.

Hundreds killed by US Cavalry and "settlers" at Wounded Knee, Canyon Del Muerto (1805), Battle of Tallushatchee,  Yontoket Massacre, Washita River.  And many more.   But I guess maybe you have at least one point - all of these and more were done with guns, so maybe the US Cavalry and any "settlers", aka land thieves, should be outlawed from having guns!

Not taking a side on the overall topic, as I think the point is moot as long as the current Supreme Court makeup stands.

But, the arguments here aren't logical:

"Jim Jones killed more than 900 with a pitcher of KoolAid.  We gotta outlaw both pitchers AND KoolAid now."

It wasn't pitchers or KoolAid, it was the cyanide mixed in.  And cyanide is a very controlled substance.  So, that reference would suggest that guns could be more agressively controlled.

"Portugese Priests started the tradition, continued by official US policy, of spreading blankets and smallpox to the First Nations people here.."

Again, not the blankets, but the SmallPox.  And since the SmallPox virus is one of the most controlled viruses in the world, this again would argue for more control of guns.

"Hundreds killed by US Cavalry and "settlers" at Wounded Knee..."

This is a general diatribe against the way the US prosecuted the Indian Wars, and related.  And this is a very valid topic, but is not directly related to individual ownership of guns, particularly given that this discussion is directed mostly to "person to person" deaths.  (i.e., not military or related activities.)





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erfalf
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« Reply #203 on: October 11, 2017, 01:58:53 pm »

Not taking a side on the overall topic, as I think the point is moot as long as the current Supreme Court makeup stands.

But, the arguments here aren't logical:

"Jim Jones killed more than 900 with a pitcher of KoolAid.  We gotta outlaw both pitchers AND KoolAid now."

It wasn't pitchers or KoolAid, it was the cyanide mixed in.  And cyanide is a very controlled substance.  So, that reference would suggest that guns could be more agressively controlled.

"Portugese Priests started the tradition, continued by official US policy, of spreading blankets and smallpox to the First Nations people here.."

Again, not the blankets, but the SmallPox.  And since the SmallPox virus is one of the most controlled viruses in the world, this again would argue for more control of guns.

"Hundreds killed by US Cavalry and "settlers" at Wounded Knee..."

This is a general diatribe against the way the US prosecuted the Indian Wars, and related.  And this is a very valid topic, but is not directly related to individual ownership of guns, particularly given that this discussion is directed mostly to "person to person" deaths.  (i.e., not military or related activities.)

I think you may have missed the point. Death is what was brought. The kool aid, blankets, and yes, the guns, are just the tools for the messenger. A gun never killed anyone, neither did kool aid, or blankets.
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swake
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« Reply #204 on: October 11, 2017, 02:25:09 pm »

I think you may have missed the point. Death is what was brought. The kool aid, blankets, and yes, the guns, are just the tools for the messenger. A gun never killed anyone, neither did kool aid, or blankets.

The why regulate those methods at all?
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erfalf
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« Reply #205 on: October 11, 2017, 03:22:33 pm »

The why regulate those methods at all?

The better question is (that no one seems to be able to answer) is what regulations could have stopped the event from happening?
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swake
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« Reply #206 on: October 11, 2017, 03:36:38 pm »

The better question is (that no one seems to be able to answer) is what regulations could have stopped the event from happening?

So that's my point, let's study that. End the ban on CDC studies.
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« Reply #207 on: October 11, 2017, 04:02:28 pm »

I think you may have missed the point. Death is what was brought. The kool aid, blankets, and yes, the guns, are just the tools for the messenger. A gun never killed anyone, neither did kool aid, or blankets.

So it's the bullets then, not the guns?  (Kidding, and I'm not for banning bullets.)

No, I didn't miss the point.  Nor was I discussing the greater point, but rather the validity of the arguments as they apply to gun control.   Specifically to KoolAid and blankets, the attempt was/is to go to the absurd and suggest that KoolAid and Blankets are responsible for those deaths, and should be regulated.  But that is obviously not the case.  Cyanide and SmallPox are the actual instruments of death in those examples, and both those substances are highly regulated.  So, that angle would actually be arguing FOR regulation, not against, because those two instruments of death ARE regulated.

Which was kind of my jab above about bullets.  Technically guns themselves don't kill, unless used as a club. Instead, they are simply a delivery mechanism for the bullets.  That analogy would be more applicable to the KoolAid or the Blanket.  So, let's ban the bullets.  (Sarcasm)

But, as I said,  I think this discussion is moot.  Nothing of substance is going to happen (for good or bad) until the makeup of the current SCOTUS changes. 
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TeeDub
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« Reply #208 on: October 11, 2017, 07:44:39 pm »

So that's my point, let's study that. End the ban on CDC studies.

Not that I really care, but have any CDC studies on hanging, drowning, or overdoses ever taught us anything?    I don't know what a study will prove, nor can I understand wanting to spend taxpayer dollars on it.

Can you cite any CDC study on suicide that showed practical, positive results?

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swake
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« Reply #209 on: October 11, 2017, 07:54:38 pm »

Not that I really care, but have any CDC studies on hanging, drowning, or overdoses ever taught us anything?    I don't know what a study will prove, nor can I understand wanting to spend taxpayer dollars on it.

Can you cite any CDC study on suicide that showed practical, positive results?



https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/index.html
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