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November 19, 2017, 12:01:50 pm
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Author Topic: Here's a radical thought: Tear down 1 Williams Tower  (Read 5675 times)
davideinstein
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2016, 03:34:50 pm »

Yes, it is out of place. It broke up the grid and made a hated super block. So did the BOk Center, Drillers Stadium, Convention Center, and the University of Tulsa. Not to mention the interruption caused by Expo Square, the shopping malls, movie theaters, and etc. Tear them all down! DOWN I SAY!

Again, lets do the math:

Buy the building: $100,000,000
Tear it down: $25-75,000,000 (Call it $50mil)
Build the roads and landscape: $25,000,000  (obviously more if we are replacing the Boston bridge)
and now we are going to replace 1,000,000 square feet of office space: ~$240,000,000 (One Place Tower cost $120mil to build and is ~275,000 square feet of office space, but included retail and parking. To try to keep the number as low as possible lets pretend we double the cost and get almost 4 times the space)

Okay, so the total cost of extended Boston Avenue two blocks is now $415,000,000.. People that now want to go from the Marriott to the Brady District now save themselves a two block detour. Each Jimmy John's rider saves a minute and half on his bike. And on our maps, the grid is one step closer to being restored.

$415,000,000.00 for two blocks of road.

OR... we could install a light rail system that goes around that gap at a cost of $20,000,000 a mile. That gets us about the same light rail system as Boston, Phoenix, Houston, New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Seattle...  

If we wanted to start a subway system we could build a line from Boston Avenue Methodist Church to Guthrie Green for $160,000,000 ($100mil/km). Another 3K to the University of Tulsa down 6th or 11th and we would certainly burn the budget. But hey... we'd have a subway.

Now, a subway is a dumb idea. Not because it wouldn't be neat, interesting, or somewhat useful. But it is a terrible use of resources.

It is a joke with the bike drivers, but that's not where my opinion came from. It comes from how I think the street life of the roads south of 3rd would flourish if it was all connected. I don't think people understand that concept. TheArtist just posted that he would move yet he has questioned many of times how to increase business to compete with the Brady. This is how you do that for street level retailers.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2016, 06:09:00 pm »

It is a joke with the bike drivers, but that's not where my opinion came from. It comes from how I think the street life of the roads south of 3rd would flourish if it was all connected. I don't think people understand that concept. TheArtist just posted that he would move yet he has questioned many of times how to increase business to compete with the Brady. This is how you do that for street level retailers.

I still think there would be too much of a "Pedestrian Lively" gap down Boston Ave.  320 S. Boston acts as a gap, so does the PAC and hotel and the parking garage across from the Union Depot, then there is the bridge.  I think it would be better to fill in the lot on the corner across from the 320, then get a good Pedestrian Lively development in the PAC lot.  And or continue down 5th and connect down to the Blue Dome from there with some good Pedestrian Lively development.  Or anchor in a good chunk of Pedestrian Lively development in the Deco District so that it too is a destination and get us some good downtown transit. 

The most important thing is that we have 3-4 contiguous blocks of uninterrupted retail/restaurant somewhere. Then you have enough to create a destination spot.   Transit could then connect that area with other areas like the Blue Dome or Brady Arts, and or having some pedestrian friendly connections would be just as good. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 06:16:09 pm by TheArtist » Logged

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PonderInc
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« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2016, 09:48:12 am »

The Williams tower defines the Tulsa skyline.  It's fully occupied, class A office space.  This one building generates over $1 million in property taxes every year, which helps fund Tulsa Public Schools.  It serves as the headquarters for several major Tulsa corporations.  (Williams, WPX, BOK, Magellen, law firms, etc.)  And it's significant both architecturally and culturally because it's the surviving sibling to the Twin Towers in NYC.

The Williams tower itself doesn't cut off Brady from the rest of downtown.  The elevated bridges and the RR tracks do that.  In the old days, buildings lined the bridges, which helped connect the sides.  In the modern world, a better solution might be to replace the bridges with underpasses. This would create new spaces where buildings could abut the RR right-of-way with short pedestrian tunnels or skybridges for crossing the tracks.

Regardless... End of topic.

Next.
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Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2016, 01:03:42 pm »

There is nothing along the street of the building that gives enhancement to anything around it. Go to CityPlex and see how morbid it looks.

Now that's true. But the solution is to put some stuff on on street level, not tear the complex down.
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rdj
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2016, 08:41:25 am »

I somehow missed this thread until today.  I had to go back to the dates and see if it was an April Fool's joke.  Wow.
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2016, 10:53:01 am »

PAC and the hotel are within the grid.


I don't know if you realize this or not but... that monstrosity blocking people from walking...  has these weird things called doors...

I think you can walk in the building using them on one side and walkout using those on the other side. Now, I don't know how you get back through because the doors may only let people in or out depending on which side of the building they are on but you can get through building going at least one way using them so you don't have to walk a block out of your way.
They are locked after 6 or 7PM too but they are open at 6AM.
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swake
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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2016, 12:35:55 pm »


I don't know if you realize this or not but... that monstrosity blocking people from walking...  has these weird things called doors...

I think you can walk in the building using them on one side and walkout using those on the other side. Now, I don't know how you get back through because the doors may only let people in or out depending on which side of the building they are on but you can get through building going at least one way using them so you don't have to walk a block out of your way.
They are locked after 6 or 7PM too but they are open at 6AM.

I've walked through there many times, but you can't ride a bike through the building. I think that's the real issue. It's certainly not driving because the bridge on the other side doesn't allow you to drive across.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2016, 01:21:34 pm »

I think you can walk in the building using them on one side and walkout using those on the other side. Now, I don't know how you get back through...

Nope. You can go in and out from all entrances and exits except to City Hall (which seems ironic).  You can enter or exit from the 1st street entrance immediately onto Boston. From the one on Main. Or from the sky bridge from the new parking garage On 1st. Or from the sky walk from the park off of 2nd. Or from the hotel off of 2nd. Or from the ground floor entrance off of second.

I've taken many a meandering path through that building to and from the Brady District over lunch. My favorite for people not familiar with downtown enters on the ground floor from 1st and Boston, goes up a level, over, then out across the sky bridge to the hotel. Then down to the parking garage, to the tunnel to 320 S. Boston, across to the Kennedy, across to Mid Con, then up and over to the Marriott, into the Philtower, and pop out on Boston (you used to be able to go to the basement and over to Philcade, then back up and down the hall to the IBM building). They are so disoriented. The best part was you actually go past my old building doing that... but it made me chuckle.  Grin
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2016, 01:24:36 pm »

Because JJ's delivery riders can't deliver there because of their own policy.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.1517551,-95.9888166/36.1598312,-95.9944839/@36.1550032,-95.9954036,16z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!4m1!3e1?hl=en
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2016, 02:50:48 pm »

Nope. You can go in and out from all entrances and exits except to City Hall (which seems ironic).  You can enter or exit from the 1st street entrance immediately onto Boston. From the one on Main. Or from the sky bridge from the new parking garage On 1st. Or from the sky walk from the park off of 2nd. Or from the hotel off of 2nd. Or from the ground floor entrance off of second.

I've taken many a meandering path through that building to and from the Brady District over lunch. My favorite for people not familiar with downtown enters on the ground floor from 1st and Boston, goes up a level, over, then out across the sky bridge to the hotel. Then down to the parking garage, to the tunnel to 320 S. Boston, across to the Kennedy, across to Mid Con, then up and over to the Marriott, into the Philtower, and pop out on Boston (you used to be able to go to the basement and over to Philcade, then back up and down the hall to the IBM building). They are so disoriented. The best part was you actually go past my old building doing that... but it made me chuckle.  Grin

I was just kidding on the doors opening both ways ;o)
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2016, 08:50:55 am »

I was just kidding on the doors opening both ways ;o)

First, my sarcasm-o-meter is sometimes broken. I admit that.

Second, sadly, there are some corporate buildings that do function that way. Try cutting through OneOK sometime. I worked in that building back in the day and was showing it to a friend as we walked by (he asked if it was stone inside too). The guards freaked out - instead of politely explaining the policy (no badge, no entry) and asking that I go back from whence I came, they acted like I intentionally peed in their coffee while smiling and talking smack about their mothers. Two guys over lunch wearing suits and ties looking at a building... clearly a grave threat.
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« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2016, 12:04:23 am »

Boston will forever end at 3rd.  But Main could be reconnected from 1st to 3rd.  It would take demolishing part of the Williams annex building and the Hyatt.  If the Hyatt tower was in the way I would say it wasn't doable but it's the meetings space on the west side of the tower.  If that could be rebuilt on the east side then you could extend Main along Boulder Plaza.
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johrasephoenix
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« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2016, 08:29:10 am »

If you just made Cincinnati and Boulder 2-way streets it would do a lot to help.  Right now if you're cruising down Boston, the CBD's coolest street, and you want to get over to the Brady, you've got to go way the heck out of your way to get over there. 
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2016, 10:07:35 am »


If you just made Cincinnati and Boulder 2-way streets it would do a lot to help.  Right now if you're cruising down Boston, the CBD's coolest street, and you want to get over to the Brady, you've got to go way the heck out of your way to get over there.
 

Boston to 3rd;
turn left on 3rd;
west on 3rd (2 blocks) to Boulder;
turn right on Boulder;
north on Boulder (5 blocks) to the Brady Theater.

Seven blocks is seven blocks.  The cruising distance to get over there would not be any shorter with Boston or Main re-opened, or with Boulder as a 2-way street. 

However, with a 2-way Boulder, the cruising distance back from the Brady Theater to 3rd and Boston could be shortened from nine blocks to seven.  The walking distance would be seven blocks, regardless.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2016, 10:15:20 am »

Boston will forever end at 3rd.  But Main could be reconnected from 1st to 3rd.  It would take demolishing part of the Williams annex building and the Hyatt.  If the Hyatt tower was in the way I would say it wasn't doable but it's the meetings space on the west side of the tower.  If that could be rebuilt on the east side then you could extend Main along Boulder Plaza.

To rebuild the meeting space on the east side you would take out the green space. You would also have to redo the parking structure that is under the green space. You could then reconstruct what you just tore down and reinforce the foundation of the hotel as it needs to drop ~20 feet in elevation to connect to 2nd.

Then you can demolish a few hundred thousand square feet of a fully occupied Williams building (including the cafeteria, data center, gym and sky bridge to the hotel) and extend the road a further block to hook up at 1st.

The result would save a one block detour.   Someone else can figure the price on that, safe bet it is in this format $X00,000,000.00 (solve for X).


Stopped future super blocks should be a no-brainer. If there are super blocks that have a path that can be a road, or are underutilized, or can be tunneled under...lets talk. But why do we keep discussing tearing down structures portions of downtown that are dense, heavily utilized, and would cost hundreds of millions of dollars? The cost benefit is dubious, and the chance of ever getting funding or public support is zero.
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