A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 22, 2019, 05:32:29 am
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Earthquake Insurance - should those using injection wells pay?  (Read 6175 times)
Townsend
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12194



« on: October 21, 2015, 11:44:07 am »

Insurers Asked to Send Clarifying Notice of Quake Coverage

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/insurers-asked-send-clarifying-notice-quake-coverage

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Oklahoma's insurance commissioner is asking insurance companies to send customers a notice to clarify whether their policies cover earthquake damage caused by things like mining or oil and gas exploration.

Commissioner John D. Doak said Tuesday insurers have 45 days to issue the notices to policyholders and insurance agents.

Doak says historically, earthquake insurance has excluded earth movement resulting from human activities such as mining, explosives and oil and gas exploration.

The Oklahoma Geological Survey has determined that the majority of the quakes in Oklahoma are more than likely the result of wastewater injection into disposal wells.

Doak says some companies have amended policy forms to cover damage from wastewater injection, while others have waived the man-made exclusion. He says a third group still excludes quakes induced by wastewater injection.
Logged
carltonplace
Historic Artifact
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4586



WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 02:03:53 pm »

Messy. So how does the insurance company prove whether a quake was force majeure or man made?
if they can determine it is man made then does the policy holder sue the injection company when their claim is denied?
Logged
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 29229



« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2015, 02:34:55 pm »

Messy. So how does the insurance company prove whether a quake was force majeure or man made?
if they can determine it is man made then does the policy holder sue the injection company when their claim is denied?

That’s pretty much how it would go.

I’m guessing the burden of proof on you to prove it was man-made will be tougher than the burden of proof on the insurance companies.

If the policy excludes man made causes, then earthquake insurance in Oklahoma is useless.
Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
dbacksfan 2.0
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1498


« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2015, 03:20:20 pm »

Or if you are the Tulsa World you force everyone out and try to have the building condemned.
Logged
Townsend
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12194



« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2015, 03:27:06 pm »

Or if you are the Tulsa World you force everyone out and try to have the building condemned.

So most of North Central Oklahoma will be forcibly abandoned and condemned.
Logged
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12494



« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2015, 08:53:36 am »

So most of North Central Oklahoma will be forcibly abandoned and condemned.



Like Picher, OK.

Logged

"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
carltonplace
Historic Artifact
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4586



WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 10:36:35 am »

That’s pretty much how it would go.

I’m guessing the burden of proof on you to prove it was man-made will be tougher than the burden of proof on the insurance companies.

If the policy excludes man made causes, then earthquake insurance in Oklahoma is useless.

Well Frack!
Logged
cannon_fodder
All around good guy.
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 9379



« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 08:11:29 am »

The way it has gone in Guthrie is that an earthquake happens damage is done (usually masonry, occasionally foundation) and an insurance claim is filed. The insurance company determines that the quake was man made and denies the claim. An attorney is involved and a claim is made against a group of frackers (actually high pressure injection wells, but for the common nomenclature...). The frackers deny the claim and a lawsuit is filed.

The frackers claim:
1) You can't sue us in Court, you have to complain to the Corp Commission,
2) The Corp Commision doesn't have the power to act on complaints,
3) There is no link between fracking  and earthquakes,
4) If there is, there is no link between THIS earthquake and fracking,
5) If there is, you can't prove it was OUR well that caused the problem,
6) If you can, you can't prove what portion of the blame falls on us, other wells, or natural phenomenon,
 

They then paper the crap out of the Plaintiff's and the case gets dragged out, creating a situation where you have as much money in the legal fight as you have in damage to your home. Lawsuit is dropped.

Rinse. Repeat.

On the side, lobby state government to cover up the link (which they did for 5 years), pass laws granting immunity or preferential litigation rights to frackers, and generally try to screw people.  Also, lobby to remove county and local regulation of wells while also lobbying against centralized "big government."

Oklahoma made international news this summer when the Supreme Court held oil companies can be sued for earthquake damage:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/01/us/oklahoma-court-rules-homeowners-can-sue-oil-companies-over-quakes.html

to date, I'm not aware of any homeowner being paid by oil companies for earthquake damage.

(incidentally, this is the exact same pattern of behavior seen out east for destroyed wells. When wells started catching on fire and/or being tainted with drilling chemicals, the same argument were used)
Logged

- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12494



« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 02:02:26 pm »

The way it has gone in Guthrie is that an earthquake happens damage is done (usually masonry, occasionally foundation) and an insurance claim is filed. The insurance company determines that the quake was man made and denies the claim. An attorney is involved and a claim is made against a group of frackers (actually high pressure injection wells, but for the common nomenclature...). The frackers deny the claim and a lawsuit is filed.

The frackers claim:
1) You can't sue us in Court, you have to complain to the Corp Commission,
2) The Corp Commision doesn't have the power to act on complaints,
3) There is no link between fracking  and earthquakes,
4) If there is, there is no link between THIS earthquake and fracking,
5) If there is, you can't prove it was OUR well that caused the problem,
6) If you can, you can't prove what portion of the blame falls on us, other wells, or natural phenomenon,
 

They then paper the crap out of the Plaintiff's and the case gets dragged out, creating a situation where you have as much money in the legal fight as you have in damage to your home. Lawsuit is dropped.

Rinse. Repeat.

On the side, lobby state government to cover up the link (which they did for 5 years), pass laws granting immunity or preferential litigation rights to frackers, and generally try to screw people.  Also, lobby to remove county and local regulation of wells while also lobbying against centralized "big government."

Oklahoma made international news this summer when the Supreme Court held oil companies can be sued for earthquake damage:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/01/us/oklahoma-court-rules-homeowners-can-sue-oil-companies-over-quakes.html

to date, I'm not aware of any homeowner being paid by oil companies for earthquake damage.

(incidentally, this is the exact same pattern of behavior seen out east for destroyed wells. When wells started catching on fire and/or being tainted with drilling chemicals, the same argument were used)


Similar action with old abandoned oil wells in this state.  There is lots of propaganda being spewed by OERB about what a wonderful cleanup they are doing and testimonials from happy landowners who have had cleanups done.  I personally know 3 who aren't quite that happy.  They are on the waiting list - one for the last 9 years - and when ask about how long it's gonna be, the stock answer is that it could be 10 years.... So 10 - 9 might lead one to think that there may be only one year left to wait....  Wrong guess!!   Must be that Common Core Math, 'cause they are still told it will likely be 5 to 10 years!

And that is just for the surface stuff - old equipment etc.  Corporation Commission is supposed to be the lead for subsurface stuff, like remediation of old leaky pipelines and maybe casings, etc.  They say the OERB has to do their thing first before they can do their job.   

Just a good thing nothing is actually burning, huh?

Can anyone spell "runaround" ??


Logged

"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Townsend
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12194



« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2015, 11:24:16 am »

It's all going to be okay!!!  We've put our best teams on this...

Senate Panel Sets Hearing on Oklahoma Earthquakes

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/senate-panel-sets-hearing-oklahoma-earthquakes

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Seismologists and oil and gas industry regulators are scheduled to testify about a dramatic rise in the number of earthquakes in Oklahoma.

The Senate Energy Committee has scheduled a hearing on Friday to study the increase in seismic activity.

Among those scheduled to testify are Secretary of Energy and Environment Michael Teague and the Dr. Jeremy Boak with the Oklahoma Geological Survey. Officials with the Oklahoma Corporation Commission also are expected to speak.

Growing scientific evidence suggests the sharp rise in earthquakes in Oklahoma is linked to the injection of wastewater from oil and gas drilling deep into the earth.

In response, the Corporation Commission has developed a plan covering hundreds of disposal wells to examine if they are injecting too deep into the ground.
Logged
Townsend
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12194



« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 12:37:26 pm »

“Oklahoma Earthquakes: Bombshell Doc Reveals Big Oil’s Tight Grip on Politicians and Scientists”

https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/

Quote
Al Jazeera America’s documentary on Oklahoma’s oil and gas industry-linked earthquake surge airs Dec. 13. The doc includes an unfettered interview with former state seismologist Austin Holland on his last day at the Oklahoma Geological Survey, during which he details industry pressure and conflicts of interest by state officials tasked with studying the shaking.
Logged
carltonplace
Historic Artifact
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4586



WWW
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 07:46:44 am »

“Oklahoma Earthquakes: Bombshell Doc Reveals Big Oil’s Tight Grip on Politicians and Scientists”

https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/


I'm shocked! This shakes my belief in State Politicians to the very core. I'm either trembling with anger or there is another earthquake going on.

Of course the state is complicit and of course they chose big oil over the safety of the citizens.
Logged
cannon_fodder
All around good guy.
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 9379



« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 08:12:57 am »

Hey... we now have more measurable earthquakes than anywhere else in the world!!

We're #1 We're #1 We're #1

http://ecowatch.com/2015/11/16/oklahoma-most-earthquakes-fracking/

(side note: heard on the radio this morning that a new health survey puts us at #50)
Logged

- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.
swake
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7745



« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 08:34:33 am »

Hey... we now have more measurable earthquakes than anywhere else in the world!!

We're #1 We're #1 We're #1

http://ecowatch.com/2015/11/16/oklahoma-most-earthquakes-fracking/

(side note: heard on the radio this morning that a new health survey puts us at #50)

We are also #1 in cuts to public education since 2008, almost 25%!
Logged
carltonplace
Historic Artifact
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4586



WWW
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2015, 09:40:38 am »

We are also #1 in cuts to public education since 2008, almost 25%!

Yet we keep electing officials that seem to have contempt for us.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org