Iron Gate

[AquaMan]

It's called living in a city.  If you want complete isolation from homeless, move to an affluent suburb in a big city that shields its citizens from reality.  Otherwise, this is life.

Absolutely. And its not a totally bad thing either to see life different than your own occasionally. Nothing is more fearful to me than walled in, antiseptic looking developments where all the roofs are the same and the only pecking order is determined by how many garage doors you have!

We could lessen the impact of an Oklahoma style recession (cycling oil, moralistic leaders, poor education outcomes) by investing in treatments centers, rehabilitation centers etc. But we are too scared that it is just their own lack of ambition and will power that put them on the streets rather than victims of economic climate change. So, it is life in Oklahoma.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Absolutely. And its not a totally bad thing either to see life different than your own occasionally. Nothing is more fearful to me than walled in, antiseptic looking developments where all the roofs are the same and the only pecking order is determined by how many garage doors you have!

We could lessen the impact of an Oklahoma style recession (cycling oil, moralistic leaders, poor education outcomes) by investing in treatments centers, rehabilitation centers etc. But we are too scared that it is just their own lack of ambition and will power that put them on the streets rather than victims of economic climate change. So, it is life in Oklahoma.

Actually, the bigger issue is that just like the NIMBY principle, you have the NOOMP (not out of my pocket) thinking as well. Everybody wants better treatment facilities for the homeless and the mentally ill, but no one wants to pay for it with out of pocket/tax funds and expects the gov't to take care of it. The last time they did there was such an uproar, deservedly so, because of the shabby, criminal and inhumane negligence at the facilities the public demanded reform, and the gov't just pulled the plug.

To get some of these people help, you have to get a court order and make sure you're not violating their civil rights, and basically with the lack of funds it's just a revolving door of sending them in and giving them the minimum level and sending them back out. (wash/rinse,/repeat, wash/rinse/repeat)

[AquaMan]

Actually, the bigger issue is that just like the NIMBY principle, you have the NOOMP (not out of my pocket) thinking as well. Everybody wants better treatment facilities for the homeless and the mentally ill, but no one wants to pay for it with out of pocket/tax funds and expects the gov't to take care of it. The last time they did there was such an uproar, deservedly so, because of the shabby, criminal and inhumane negligence at the facilities the public demanded reform, and the gov't just pulled the plug.

To get some of these people help, you have to get a court order and make sure you're not violating their civil rights, and basically with the lack of funds it's just a revolving door of sending them in and giving them the minimum level and sending them back out. (wash/rinse,/repeat, wash/rinse/repeat)

Can't say I disagree. Its a good description of what happened and what's happening. I'd like to see some optimism and some tactics as to what we can do to combat the problem. I don't think we even want to pay for those studies either. Perhaps the Filipino method came from the same process.
 

[heironymouspasparagus]

Can't say I disagree. Its a good description of what happened and what's happening. I'd like to see some optimism and some tactics as to what we can do to combat the problem. I don't think we even want to pay for those studies either. Perhaps the Filipino method came from the same process.
 

Eugenics.

Soylent Green.

[AquaMan]

Carousel.

[TheArtist]

Quick question... Why do they have to go through the board of adjustments in the first place?  I thought you could put most anything anywhere downtown and thats the way, as Ponder put it, the property owners want it.

As per where it is now versus the new location.  I would rather it move to the new location which is more "away" from my business.

For instance, I would open earlier on Saturdays (Currently open at 10 but had considered 9) but do not for on the times that I have opened early to give it a try, since I am next to 5th street which the Iron Gate is on, there is a lot of negative traffic still happening.  People screaming swear words at the top of their lungs as they walk alone down the street, or fighting with each other, and more of them come into the store at that time and more likely with a friend in tow which I have found leads them to be far more brazen, argumentative, destructive or confrontational.  Even opening around 10 they are still around so I try to keep a low profile and not attract attention.

I really wish we had more mental health services.  Why don't the churches help with that? And where are all the "We want lower taxes and less government doing things" people stepping in to take care of this problem.  We have the low over all taxes so they must now have lots of free money and or time to give to help.

[cannon_fodder]

Quick question... Why do they have to go through the board of adjustments in the first place?  I thought you could put most anything anywhere downtown and thats the way, as Ponder put it, the property owners want it.

A soup kitchen/food pantry or considered "government services" and it is not allowed by right within the CBD. See Tusla Zoning Code 15.020, available here, at page 48. They require a special exception "because of potential adverse affect, but which if as to its relationship to the surrounding area may be permitted." Basically, they are supposed to see "the anticipated impacts of the use on the surrounding area, specifically the abutting businesses." In short, NIMBY applies by law.

That is from the BOA case report, available here:
http://www.cityoftulsa-boa.org/Documents/Agendas/10-25-2016/BOA-22152.pdf

Per the zoning code, they can locate in CO as a matter of right, or nearly anywhere else by special exception. I couldn't point to one place in Tulsa that is CO zoning, not sure it really exists yet.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I really wish we had more mental health services.  Why don't the churches help with that? And where are all the "We want lower taxes and less government doing things" people stepping in to take care of this problem.  We have the low over all taxes so they must now have lots of free money and or time to give to help.

Sadly, we probably won't get more.  It is the huge problem that goes across so many lines in our society, affecting literally everyone, but always pushed into a corner to try to not notice.

Many of the churches I see are doing some of what they could be doing.  Too often I see a focus on being the Church "about" Jesus Christ rather than the Church "of" Jesus Christ.  And big TV megachurches.... well, they are what they are....

Salvation Army is the single biggest, most notable exception to this I have found - my preferred organization as I have harped on repeatedly.  (I know there are others because I have friends who talk about their organizations.)  I have attended services a few times and God bless them, but it was soooo boring I couldn't stay awake!  There has to be a 'balance' between message and entertainment...  But the "of" part they do - there is none better!  Anywhere in the world!!

But even SA cannot cover more than a fraction of what is needed.  The hypocrisy behind the Big Lie told by the RWRE - in this case the Right Wing Religious Extremists - is that they really DON'T care about solutions to societal issues.  They want their tax incentives/cuts/breaks.  They want more power/control.  Because IF they were truly behind what they profess about "compassionate conservatism" they would understand (which they do, but don't want to admit) that a governmental entity is the only thing we have in place to address the scope of these kind of problems.  

And it really is even more amazing how much they fight against programs to help with this type of thing AT THE SAME TIME working SOOOOO hard to turn us into a theocracy!!  10 Commandments on the Capital grounds type of thing...  Push their prayers onto all the children in schools....  So, since their church is unable/unwilling to give enough help to make serious improvements now, what will happen when their church IS our government??  Well, the problems will become even worse.



To everyone else, sorry about this thread drift.

[AquaMan]

I don't mind your drift. The frustration with the inaction and hypocrisy related to the homeless issue is becoming widespread. The idea of Iron Gate is to feed the hungry without judgment as Jesus instructed. The goal of the Salvation Army is to not only feed them but nurture their souls, show them the way give them structure and shelter.

I met two young men at Guthrie Green Wednesday night from the SA program and was much impressed with their attitude, their ethic and their manners. They are ready to make changes in their lives and are now seeing a different world. It was encouraging. I don't get that impression from those getting food from Iron Gate but they have a different mission. They are like the very first phase of the process.

Perhaps some new leadership in government after this election will start the wheels rolling again.

[DTowner]

Sadly, we probably won't get more.  It is the huge problem that goes across so many lines in our society, affecting literally everyone, but always pushed into a corner to try to not notice.

Many of the churches I see are doing some of what they could be doing.  Too often I see a focus on being the Church "about" Jesus Christ rather than the Church "of" Jesus Christ.  And big TV megachurches.... well, they are what they are....

Salvation Army is the single biggest, most notable exception to this I have found - my preferred organization as I have harped on repeatedly.  (I know there are others because I have friends who talk about their organizations.)  I have attended services a few times and God bless them, but it was soooo boring I couldn't stay awake!  There has to be a 'balance' between message and entertainment...  But the "of" part they do - there is none better!  Anywhere in the world!!

But even SA cannot cover more than a fraction of what is needed.  The hypocrisy behind the Big Lie told by the RWRE - in this case the Right Wing Religious Extremists - is that they really DON'T care about solutions to societal issues.  They want their tax incentives/cuts/breaks.  They want more power/control.  Because IF they were truly behind what they profess about "compassionate conservatism" they would understand (which they do, but don't want to admit) that a governmental entity is the only thing we have in place to address the scope of these kind of problems.  

And it really is even more amazing how much they fight against programs to help with this type of thing AT THE SAME TIME working SOOOOO hard to turn us into a theocracy!!  10 Commandments on the Capital grounds type of thing...  Push their prayers onto all the children in schools....  So, since their church is unable/unwilling to give enough help to make serious improvements now, what will happen when their church IS our government??  Well, the problems will become even worse.



To everyone else, sorry about this thread drift.

It must be nice to live in a world with such clarity and all of society’s ills and failures can be laid at the feet of Republicans, conservatives and Christians, and especially conservative Christian Republicans.

In the past few years I’ve traveled to New York City, Washington DC, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, Las Vegas, and New Orleans and each of those cities has far worse problems of homelessness and mentally ill transients than Tulsa.  Each of those cities is and has been for a long time under Democratic control and are in states lead almost exclusively by Democrats.  It seems to me liberals and Democrats don’t have any more idea how to solve this problem than do Republicans or Christians.

Organizations like Iron Gate do noble work in providing food to the hungry.  Someone stated they do so in a “nonjudgmental way.”  However, there is a fine line between providing food in a nonjudgmental way and enabling the continuation of the dreary and marginalized life so many of these folks live.  Providing food to the hungry is easy, attacking the reasons for the hunger is hard.  Because of this, I don’t begrudge Iron Gate for taking the path it does, but it is also why I support organizations like The Salvation Army and John 3:16 Mission that do more than just provide physical sustenance, but try to change the conditions causing the problem.

As for the location, I think it would be better to locate Iron Gate on the edge of downtown rather than where it is now (if it has to be located downtown).  However, sandwiching it between a highway on and off ramp does not make a lot of sense to me.  This location seems to have a real risk of danger to its clients and a risk of creating significant traffic problems for commuters.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

From my own experience living in Phoenix and working with the church that I attended with my ex, while we did things like providing meals near homeless shelters a few times a year, Thanksgiving/Christmas/Valentines and a couple of others, we had no way of providing a leg up to the people we fed. There was fellowship and praying for those that needed help, but other than giving a hot meal, clothes, a spiritual message or feeling, we couldn't do anything else. It made us feel good to make a difference, but it was only a few hours on a very few days and we knew that we couldn't do more.

My ex when she was going to University of Phoenix to get her Bachelor of Business wrote a paper about setting up essentially a recovery center where the homeless could register and get help and have a safe place to stay, to give them  a chance to improve themselves. It was a center that would issue an ID to the person as a resident there, and provide them with an address, help them build a resume, help them clean up for interviews. and give them counseling on personal issues, and help them move forward with their lives. It had strict guidelines that they had to abide by if they truly wanted to move forward, and the places would give them a stable environment to get mail, and have a stable point of contact.

While working with Salvation Army and other types of organizations it would need further funding, and one that I thought of was a progressive tax (yeah, I know, don't tax me for someone else) that could be an extra $150.00/year for those making $50k to $60k a year, and then incrementally above that. The thing is it would have to be a legislation tax without any pork, riders, provisions, exceptions, inclusions, exclusions, by the way, I need, my constituents need, just by chance, oh by the way, crap involved. And as for providing mental and physical health, a required residency of graduates to work with senior doctors as part of their progression.

Am I asking too much? 

[AquaMan]

From my own experience living in Phoenix and working with the church that I attended with my ex, while we did things like providing meals near homeless shelters a few times a year, Thanksgiving/Christmas/Valentines and a couple of others, we had no way of providing a leg up to the people we fed. There was fellowship and praying for those that needed help, but other than giving a hot meal, clothes, a spiritual message or feeling, we couldn't do anything else. It made us feel good to make a difference, but it was only a few hours on a very few days and we knew that we couldn't do more.

My ex when she was going to University of Phoenix to get her Bachelor of Business wrote a paper about setting up essentially a recovery center where the homeless could register and get help and have a safe place to stay, to give them  a chance to improve themselves. It was a center that would issue an ID to the person as a resident there, and provide them with an address, help them build a resume, help them clean up for interviews. and give them counseling on personal issues, and help them move forward with their lives. It had strict guidelines that they had to abide by if they truly wanted to move forward, and the places would give them a stable environment to get mail, and have a stable point of contact.

While working with Salvation Army and other types of organizations it would need further funding, and one that I thought of was a progressive tax (yeah, I know, don't tax me for someone else) that could be an extra $150.00/year for those making $50k to $60k a year, and then incrementally above that. The thing is it would have to be a legislation tax without any pork, riders, provisions, exceptions, inclusions, exclusions, by the way, I need, my constituents need, just by chance, oh by the way, crap involved. And as for providing mental and physical health, a required residency of graduates to work with senior doctors as part of their progression.

Am I asking too much? 

No, you're not. If only we had legislators and a governor who possessed the knowledge and wisdom of posters on this thread. Seriously, your plan seems workable. Salvation Army seems to be on that track, but being non-profit, religious affiliated it by nature cannot achieve what a broader tax funded program could achieve. Perhaps operated by the states instead of the lowly respected Federal govt. I could see a multi religion input being included as long as it was open to any legitimate religion (that is problematic of course). Drugs are doing extreme damage to our nation and ignoring it is going to be very costly.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It must be nice to live in a world with such clarity and all of society’s ills and failures can be laid at the feet of Republicans, conservatives and Christians, and especially conservative Christian Republicans.

In the past few years I’ve traveled to New York City, Washington DC, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, Las Vegas, and New Orleans and each of those cities has far worse problems of homelessness and mentally ill transients than Tulsa.  Each of those cities is and has been for a long time under Democratic control and are in states lead almost exclusively by Democrats.  It seems to me liberals and Democrats don’t have any more idea how to solve this problem than do Republicans or Christians.

Organizations like Iron Gate do noble work in providing food to the hungry.  Someone stated they do so in a “nonjudgmental way.”  However, there is a fine line between providing food in a nonjudgmental way and enabling the continuation of the dreary and marginalized life so many of these folks live.  Providing food to the hungry is easy, attacking the reasons for the hunger is hard.  Because of this, I don’t begrudge Iron Gate for taking the path it does, but it is also why I support organizations like The Salvation Army and John 3:16 Mission that do more than just provide physical sustenance, but try to change the conditions causing the problem.

As for the location, I think it would be better to locate Iron Gate on the edge of downtown rather than where it is now (if it has to be located downtown).  However, sandwiching it between a highway on and off ramp does not make a lot of sense to me.  This location seems to have a real risk of danger to its clients and a risk of creating significant traffic problems for commuters.

Yeah, it is.  Since it is the RWRE who are actively campaigning the most against these efforts, it IS easy to see and distinguish.  And if you hadn't noticed, the SA is as apolitical as an organization can be given it's major funding sources - which means it is a fairly conservative organization.  And it IS Christian.  Which is more than can be said for many of the RWRE who "wrap themselves in the shroud" and spew their plaintive bleats.  The extremist right wing is neither Christian nor Republican.  And they certainly are not what would be considered 'conservatives' - they are reactionary extremists!  They have taken over what is now the Hijacked Republican Party.  As I have gone on about before.  Dwight Eisenhower was a conservative.  Barry Goldwater was a reactionary extremist.   Page Belcher was a conservative.  Jim Inhofe is a reactionary extremist.  John McCain and Mitt Romney, even with their flaws, are conservatives.  Paul Ryan, Ted Cruz, Trump are reactionary extremists.

As for Dems not having a clue - well I absolutely agree with you there!  The big difference being they are actively trying to do something to fix problems while the extremist right wing is actively trying to do something to make the problems worse.  As can be seen by 40% of the country enamored with Trump.   Which is in direct contradiction to pretty much everything the 'red lettered' section of the Holy Bible has to say....it's a shame some of them don't read some of what the guy they invoke so often actually said....!!  And work harder to try to live by it.

I have NO complaint at all about Iron Gate - anything that people do to try to make other lives better is a good thing.  I am biased toward the Salvation Army and Neighbor for Neighbor due to long associations with both - from the 60's - they are my "go to" charities.  And you wouldn't even be hearing that if we knew each other - Matthew 6.    Doesn't mean I am against the others.  I have not and will probably never be one of their "whales" - not likely to ever be wealthy enough for that, but hey, I might win the lottery sometime -  but try to help any way I can.

[AquaMan]

Considering the newest proposed location is so near to Central Park and the Townhomes there, I'm surprised there isn't a tremendous backlash against it. Central Park is my favorite right now because it is so pretty, so unused by outsiders to the area and only slightly attended by homeless. The ones there are pretty considerate and hang near the north side of the park.

But if Iron Gate brings its constituency, I foresee that park starting to look like River parks between 11th and 19th. Which is why I stopped running that area. They were hard core drunks, often stumbling around, arguing with each other, occupying all the good spots and leaving their clothes, beer cans, cigarettes behind them. Proximity to the river hides some of them. God help them, but if given a choice, I see too much of that every day. I just want to run a path and relax in natures beauty.

Please don't judge me, I am just noting reality. Central Park will change.

[rebound]

But if Iron Gate brings its constituency, I foresee that park starting to look like River parks between 11th and 19th. Which is why I stopped running that area. They were hard core drunks, often stumbling around, arguing with each other, occupying all the good spots and leaving their clothes, beer cans, cigarettes behind them. Proximity to the river hides some of them. God help them, but if given a choice, I see too much of that every day. I just want to run a path and relax in natures beauty.

Oh, you are so right on this piece.  I am not sure how/when the momentum started on that section of trail, but it is ridiculous.   Early this Spring it wasn't too bad, but lately it has been overrun.   I bike early in the morning mostly, and multiple times this Summer there people had made campsites in the middle of the bike lanes.  I had to veer over to the running side to go around them.  Even biking, there were a few encounters that were "less than courteous".  I would definitely avoid that area, particularly early and late, if I were a runner.