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DTowner
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2015, 08:44:03 am »

Anyone here actually walk the streets and businesses at third and Peoria? It isn't the Pearl you're imagining.

Isn't that the point of the concern - the risk that locating Iron Gate here will ensure that the area stays in its current condition rather than improving along with the southern section.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2015, 08:55:13 am »

Isn't that the point of the concern - the risk that locating Iron Gate here will ensure that the area stays in its current condition rather than improving along with the southern section.
Fair enough but the area has little in common with sixth and Peoria and the Kendall area. It sits next to the tracks and across from a machine shop and tons of commercial industrial within a half mile.
Converting it to gentrified hoods will be more difficult because of that. The same arguments were made by White City residents when a transitional home was proposed and they were unfounded. Also the current location hasn't diminished downtown development but moving it to the Moss ghetto likely impedes improvement nearby.
This isn't a terrible location to me.
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swake
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2015, 09:34:51 am »

Fair enough but the area has little in common with sixth and Peoria and the Kendall area. It sits next to the tracks and across from a machine shop and tons of commercial industrial within a half mile.
Converting it to gentrified hoods will be more difficult because of that. The same arguments were made by White City residents when a transitional home was proposed and they were unfounded. Also the current location hasn't diminished downtown development but moving it to the Moss ghetto likely impedes improvement nearby.
This isn't a terrible location to me.

It's three blocks to 6th and Peoria.

And I do think Iron Gate has been an impediment to development and is part of the reason why the Towercade and Tulsa Club buildings have been so difficult to develop. Both buildings should have been two of the first buildings to be converted to residential downtown and they remain empty with no plans in sight. Iron Gate being next door certainly is part of the reason so much damage has been done to the Tulsa Club by homeless people.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2015, 09:41:30 am »

It's three blocks to 6th and Peoria.

And I do think Iron Gate has been an impediment to development and is part of the reason why the Towercade and Tulsa Club buildings have been so difficult to develop. Both buildings should have been two of the first buildings to be converted to residential downtown and they remain empty with no plans in sight. Iron Gate being next door certainly is part of the reason so much damage has been done to the Tulsa Club by homeless people.
Like said. Walk that three blocks I all directions. These aren't empty commercial bldngs.
Blaming poor, addicted and mentally unstable is easy to do and like Cannon says hard on the conscience. In this case adding to the density of those groups by locating them across from the dairy is more damaging than near 244 and Peoria. Btw I am no fan of Sager or the machine shop but I am of Iron Gate.
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rdj
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2015, 09:51:56 am »

Please tell me which property you'd like them to buy that is near the existing "social services corridor" in the NW corner of the IDL.

It doesn't mater where they go, it's going to be a fight.

Aquaman makes a great point that this is not in the "heart of the Pearl" but rather on the fringe in an area that is heavily industrial.  According to the measurement tool on Google Maps the Day Center is approx. 1,200 ft from The Tavern.  Iron Gate will be approx. 1,700 ft from The Phoenix.  Yet, the Brady District seems to be doing just fine.

Also, don't forget this is the same neighborhood group that strongly opposed a new QT at 11th & Utica.  So, maybe we should rename The Pearl, The NIMBY District.
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swake
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2015, 09:58:29 am »

Iím not anti-Iron Gate but I do want it to have no reason to exist.

I am an advocate for the mentally ill and homeless to not need Iron Gate. We need to build housing to get them off the street and have on site services like mental and health care, education, drug treatment and social services on site. Itís cheaper and more humane than leaving them on the street.

As for the poor, we need to increase food stamp benefits and remove sales taxes from groceries to make food more available and cheaper.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2015, 11:39:41 am »

The QT at 11th and Peoria, and the associated street closing, was an absolute slap to the face to the Pearl District Association, the small area plan, and the proposed form based code. It is an homage to cooker cutter design. My box will fit wherever I say it will fit, zoning exemptions and all!

I bike down 3rd street in this area from time to time. It is an industrial/commercial area with little curb appeal. But it is moving in the right direction:

Hodges Bend is about a 5 minute walk away. Garden Diva. Church Studios. Nightingale theater. The Pearl Gallery. The Muslim Community Center. There's neat stuff in this area and the long term plan is to tie this area into the neat stuff at the hart of the Pearl District.  There is plenty of lots and buildings that can be built on or renovated. There are plenty of old houses mixed in that can be fixed up. The area is ripe for redevelopment in my opinion.

Unfortunately, Iron Gate's location will create a highway between the Day Center (area) and the new Iron Gate. A 30 minute walk past the heart of the Brady, the Blue Dome, and Hodges Bend. Again, the sad truth is that people buying $850,000 houses (and paying taxes on $850k houses) don't want a highway to a food pantry going by their new homes. Nor do business owners or developers.


I'm sure Story Wrecker would be happy to part with a surface lot or a tin shack for the right price, right across from the Day Center for the Homeless, the Salvation Army, John 3:16, the camping sites under the IDL bridge behind David L. Moss, near the library, etc. That sliver of the Brady is already doomed from a development standpoint.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2015, 12:08:32 pm »

That's pretty disappointing. We abhor the arrival of mcmansions and walled off residential in my century old hood . They want nothing to do with us or our children or our public schools. We are lesser citizens in their eyes. Lots of nice quad apts and homes were ripped out of the Cherry street area too in exchange for half million dollar residents. Yet both these areas are stiil rife with iron gate undesirables. Most big cities are.

The path to Iron Gate starts at the river and the Moss area. They panhandle, stumble and socialize on that path, eat sober up and head back to liquor stores or QT then party and repeat. Moving that terminus another mile or so will stretch their resolve.
Just some observations but do you really think it wise to concentrate this population in one area and thereby execute its chances for rebirth? And do you really think the new location by the tracks would have kept those cool new tenants like Garden Diva or Church Studios from locating nearby? I don't.
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takemebacktotulsa
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« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2015, 12:16:44 pm »

And I do think Iron Gate has been an impediment to development and is part of the reason why the Towercade and Tulsa Club buildings have been so difficult to develop. Both buildings should have been two of the first buildings to be converted to residential downtown and they remain empty with no plans in sight. Iron Gate being next door certainly is part of the reason so much damage has been done to the Tulsa Club by homeless people.

But, one of the first buildings that was converted to residential (the philtower) is literally next door to the Tulsa Club...
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Townsend
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« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2015, 12:52:35 pm »

Years ago I contacted Iron Gate.

I asked that they ask their guests to approach downtown workers (my wife) in a less menacing manner asking for/demanding money.

(The company she worked for eventually moved out of downtown)

I also asked if there was a way they could use less Styrofoam containers when handing out the food.  (the containers littered the area for blocks)

I was accidentally kept on the email thread that followed and saw the responses by Irongate personnel and the church. 

From then on, I have no reason to support Irongate or the church.
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2015, 01:22:01 pm »

It doesn't mater where they go, it's going to be a fight.

Probably, but if the proposed site didn't require action by the Board of Adjustment, then it would be a different kind of fight.

Aquaman makes a great point that this is not in the "heart of the Pearl" but rather on the fringe in an area that is heavily industrial.  According to the measurement tool on Google Maps the Day Center is approx. 1,200 ft from The Tavern.  Iron Gate will be approx. 1,700 ft from The Phoenix.  Yet, the Brady District seems to be doing just fine.

A valid point --- I used the measurement tool on Google Maps.  The Day Center is approx. 1,700 ft from The Tavern (not 1,200 ft, but still about the same distance the proposed Iron Gate site is from The Phoenix); 1,100 ft from the Brady Theater; 1,300 ft from the Ward Building (Bar 46 / Coney Island / Sisserou's).

Also, don't forget this is the same neighborhood group that strongly opposed a new QT at 11th & Utica.  So, maybe we should rename The Pearl, The NIMBY District.

I haven't forgotten.  But there were others outside the Pearl District neighborhood group who strongly opposed the 11th & Utica QT.

The reasons I was opposed:

1. The PUD required the closing of a public street so QT could have a larger parking lot.

2. Although the new QT store design was described as pedestrian friendly, it's less friendly for pedestrians than the old store was.  It's farther from the street with a larger expanse of paving for pedestrians to cross.

3. The TMAPC and City Council largely ignored the Comp Plan for the district.  Phil Lakin should have recused himself from the matter, but he didn't.  It was one of the most ridiculous Council meetings I've seen.  After all the discussion about conflicts of interest, harlots, chopping babies in half, etc. --- only four of the councilors voted to uphold the plan and the public planning process.  So the Pearl District and the City lost another public street, thanks to five Councilors.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2015, 02:16:07 pm »

I get the feeling that the daily "homeless parades" through downtown's entertainment districts are vastly overstated.  If there is ever a need to help people get from the day center to Iron Gate, I'm sure some philanthropists can arrange a bus or other form of help, especially on very hot or cold days.  Iron Gate also isn't limited to the homeless.  There are many poor people in town that use their services and it will be more accessible at the new location it seems.  Also, as has been mentioned, it's on the fringe of the Pearl District, by the tracks, in an industrial area, and I don't see it negatively affecting the development of 11th and 6th street corridors.  If it comes down to the idea that poor people are bad for business, well that's just not a right way to think.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2015, 02:54:44 pm »

If it comes down to the idea that poor people are bad for business, well that's just not a right way to think.

I'm not arguing that it is right. I'm arguing that it is accurate.

How much of a discount would they have to give you to live next to a soup kitchen or homeless shelter? 25%, 50%? I don't care if it is Iron Gate, the downtown Salvation Army, the Day Center for the Homeless... by being located in an area they do not help the development of that area. They are, in fact, bad for business. They are bad for image. Helping homeless people, and disadvantaged people in general, is good for humanity. Good for our society. It's good for the overall economy in the long run. But having sketchy looking people come and go is bad for business in the area.

Note that the people who have commented who had to interact with the crowd universally have reported negative experiences. It isn't the hundreds who are down on their luck and need temporary assistance that caused those people to be uncomfortable. MOST of the people coming and going are no threat at all, most don't even look like a threat. But we are talking hundreds of people. From ~7:30 to about 11, the area would be one that most people would avoid.

The day center serves about 900 meals a day. 25% (their number) of the people they serve are homeless.  80% are male.  Statistically, 1/3 of area homeless have untreated serious mental illness. So that's 60 adult males with serious untreated mental illness coming, hanging around, and going - every day.

Not only is that an indictment of the mental health (and economic) plight of Oklahoma, but it is simply not something anyone wants in their neighborhood. It is simply a fact. I'm not asking for anyone to agree that homeless people, sketchy looking people, mentally ill people, or any patron of Iron Gate is a bad person (that aren't and it isn't). I'm not asking anyone to belittle the mission of Iron Gate. I'm just saying, as a practical matter, that NIMBY applies in this scenario for a reason.

(ALSO, for full disclosure, I have ZERO stake in this game. No property, work, or business in any of the considered or mentioned locations.)
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2015, 03:28:02 pm »

I'm not arguing that it is right. I'm arguing that it is accurate.

How much of a discount would they have to give you to live next to a soup kitchen or homeless shelter? 25%, 50%? I don't care if it is Iron Gate, the downtown Salvation Army, the Day Center for the Homeless... by being located in an area they do not help the development of that area. They are, in fact, bad for business. They are bad for image. Helping homeless people, and disadvantaged people in general, is good for humanity. Good for our society. It's good for the overall economy in the long run. But having sketchy looking people come and go is bad for business in the area.

I agree. 

I worked and walked in the vicinity of Iron Gate for several years.  I never had a terribly negative experience, just a few instances of people yelling at me and my stepping around nasty messes.

This issue will be decided by three or four people. Tori Snyder has recused herself.  Michael Tidwell recused himself, too, but he is leaving the Board, so the case will be heard by his replacement, Tom Flanagan, I'm assuming. 

Iron Gate needs three affirmative votes for the special exception.  I don't attend Board of Adjustment meetings very often, but if there's another huge crowd of opponents, then I think the BOA will be reluctant to approve the special exception.
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rdj
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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2015, 08:33:06 am »

Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that Iron Gate only serves mentally-ill and homeless?  I've been told by people that have volunteered there that a fair number of downtown works use their grocery services on a regular basis.

All it takes is one volunteer shift at a homeless shelter or social service agency to realize that many of those using social services look just like you.  Many aren't homeless.  Many work and have a roof over their head but their hourly wage just doesn't stretch far enough.

As an aside, Peoria isn't void of social service agencies.  The Family & Children's Services HQ sits on the front of the Central Park development and the Native American agency is just to the north of FCS.  Both have what many on this forum would describe as "undesirables" visiting throughout every day.  The reality is that FCS serves 1 in 6 Tulsans every year, proving my point that all walks of life need a social service agency at some point so don't be so quick to label all the clients of Iron Gate as mentally-ill homeless degenerates.
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