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November 22, 2017, 02:17:23 pm
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Author Topic: Santa Fe Square on the big surface parking lot in the Blue Dome...  (Read 22617 times)
johrasephoenix
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« on: August 24, 2015, 02:43:29 pm »

I just saw something on Loop Net for "Santa Fe Square", a big mix-used development by Nelson + Stowe on the giant surface parking lot across the street from McNellie's.  Does anyone have any intel on this project?  Is it for real?  It's pre-leasing and Elliot Nelson seems like the kind of guy who actually gets stuff done.  Anyway I can't find anything else except what's posted on LoopNet.  

http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/19354114/E-2nd-Street-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/

Maybe one day Elliot Nelson will take over the First Street Lofts and complete the dern thing.
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swake
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 03:08:03 pm »

I just saw something on Loop Net for "Santa Fe Square", a big mix-used development by Nelson + Stowe on the giant surface parking lot across the street from McNellie's.  Does anyone have any intel on this project?  Is it for real?  It's pre-leasing and Elliot Nelson seems like the kind of guy who actually gets stuff done.  Anyway I can't find anything else except what's posted on LoopNet.  

http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/AB8716BB-3952-469A-965E-A634B8E5900A.pdf

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/19354114/E-2nd-Street-S-Elgin-Ave-Tulsa-OK/

Maybe one day Elliot Nelson will take over the First Street Lofts and complete the dern thing.

Santa Fe Square has been mentioned on here several times, but that PDF has far more info that I have seen before, and several new images.

The Ross Group has now gone in with Sager on the First Street Lofts and they also actually get things done.
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Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 03:12:35 pm »

Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.
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Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 03:14:37 pm »

Hmm.  Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.
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swake
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2015, 03:18:09 pm »

Here are what I think are the new images and details from your PDF:

Total Project 600,000 square feet
291 Apartments
170,000 sq ft of office space
140,000 sq ft of retail space
105 room hotel
1450 structured parking spaces



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swake
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2015, 03:23:47 pm »

Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.

No, it's still there at the bottom of the hotel. It's the Santa Fe Depot, thus the name.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2015, 03:24:02 pm »

OMG! awnings!  I love it!  Grin
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2015, 03:28:45 pm »

Looks like they're tearing down or converting the one existing structure on the property into a hotel? That's a neat old building. I hope they keep it.

Looks like they are perhaps turning that into the lobby/entrance/restaurant etc. area for the hotel part behind?  Would add some class and history to whatever hotel decided to do that.
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
saintnicster
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2015, 03:56:45 pm »

OMG! awnings!  I love it!  Grin

Don't worry, they'll run out of money and not include them Sad (like the trees that were in the rendering for GreenArch)
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 04:45:37 pm »

Hmm.  Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.

I agree. I wish the apartments would face Greenwood too and have the parking in the middle of the complex. It's cheaper to build it this way however as the parking construction would be more expensive being wrapped with added fire code restrictions, etc.

Looks like they at least intend to make the parking look nice and will have retail on the street level up until Greenwood which will keep it from feeling like a parking garage when you walk past at street level.

Here are what I think are the new images and details from your PDF:

Total Project 600,000 square feet
291 Apartments
170,000 sq ft of office space
140,000 sq ft of retail space
105 room hotel
1450 structured parking spaces


I wish there would have been more consideration put into the fact this is mixed-use and that not all of these uses will be active at the same time. The parking ratio is very high considering the amount of sq. ft. for each. This is about a 2.5 ratio to 1,000 sq. ft. which is barely lower than most suburban developments. I don't think downtown needs this much parking and I don't think this development needs this much parking.

They could shave the parking in half and be perfectly fine.

Retail is about 80,000 sq. ft. = 3.0 ratio is 240 spaces needed (lets assume you want to keep this allotment the entire day)
Office is 170,000 sq. ft. = 3.0 ratio would be 510 parking spaces needed during business hours weekdays.
Multifamily is 291 apartment = 1.5 ratio (this is what the Cosmopolitan is being constructed at on Riverside/Denver) is 436 spaces needed during evenings/post work hours.
Hotel = 105 rooms, 1 per room is 105 spaces (lets assume you want to keep this allotment for the entire day too)

Max parking needed at one time during the day is office with 510 spaces. Adding the retail is now 750 total spaces. Add the hotel and the total is now 855 spaces.

They are overbuilding parking by about 600 spaces. Which at $25k a space is $15 million. I wouldn't be surprised if this parking garage is over 40% empty the vast majority of the time.
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SXSW
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 04:53:08 pm »

Hmm.  Greenwood Ave gets no love. Just parking garage facing it.

I saw that and agree Greenwood should have retail fronting it over 1st and 2nd.  Overall a great project though and hope low oil prices don't derail it.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2015, 05:25:18 pm »

The more structured parking the merrier! It drives down the demand for surface parking. Perhaps he is planning for long term development in the area. In that he owns business dependent on street parking, it might be in Nelson's interest to make sure there is ample parking moving forward.

Every time I see this development, I get more excited.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 07:27:36 pm »

The parking is surely for more than the development but for the entire district and for ball games, etc.  It will pay for itself I assume.  This would be a game changer if it gets done and if its consistent with the renderings and doesn't end up as an ugly structure nothing like the renderings like the Cimarex tower.
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2015, 09:15:21 pm »

I guess I just don't see the parking problem that everyone else does downtown... maybe I'm crazy.

I do get it's probably the sense that if you build more parking it will spur added development around the district, but and large infill project is going to have parking on site. It will not use this garage and build 200 apartments 3 blocks away. Just not going to happen.

The PAC site will also have a 600 spot parking garage.

You have the City of Tulsa parking garage - which I don't get why it hasn't been renovated to allow for public parking on weekends and nights.

You have the 2 separate parking garages at 4th and Cincinnati that could be operated 24/7 for much cheaper than over building this garage.

These are all in just of close proximity to "encourage" infill development as well. Personally, I'd rather see the parking garage cut in half and add another 50-60 apartments. That would provide way more return than a parking structure ever could. Parking is a revenue loser for any developer, especially at those ratios.

Also, this won't drive down demand for surface lots unless the parking in the garage is cheaper than the surface lots or streets. I've never had a problem finding street parking on the weekends, and why would I pay $5 to park in this garage when I can park for free on the street? Or why would I pay that much when I could pay a few dollars for one of the surface parking lots?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 09:17:18 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
TheArtist
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2015, 03:14:38 am »

It does seem quite reasonable to have less parking with this development.  Don't forget we are also amping up the downtown trolley which will allow for more parking options in other parts of downtown.  And very importantly, the main "driver" for retail and desirability in general for downtown is... people walking around.  Pedestrian lively streets should be the biggest attraction we are shooting for.

I'll tell the story again of how when Walt Disney was showing a reporter around the underway Disney Land and Walt Said "And just wait till the biggest attraction gets here."  The reporter asked "Whats that going to be?"  Walt replied "The people!"     Walt knew what he was talking about, and it's still true today.   Let's not become a smaller lamer version of Dallas with it's parking at every development and nobody out walking. 
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"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
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