A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 17, 2019, 10:09:06 am
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Can Oklahoma learn from Kansas  (Read 22521 times)
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 29287



« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2016, 09:59:42 am »

So while Rome was burning and Nero was fiddling around:

-School consolidation has been shot down

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capitol_report/school-consolidation-bill-shut-down-in-committee-after-opponents-swarm/article_9ff7fb36-f142-51bd-b528-27fdfc25c929.html

-A bill requiring anti-abortion curriculum is advancing in the house, it also authorizes state-funded PSA’s.

Quote
for the purpose of achieving an abortion-free society.”
The bill is called the “Humanity of the Unborn Child Act,” and Coody said its intention is to instruct teenagers that life begins at conception.

Life beginning at conception is a concept up to religious interpretation (primarily Christian), so that is basically advancing one religion over others, or lack thereof.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capitol_report/bill-that-would-require-anti-abortion-school-curriculum-advances-in/article_3ae38786-0b0b-5dfc-ad1c-ac816edf3fe2.html

-School vouchers passed committee

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/education/school-vouchers-eke-through-oklahoma-house-committee/article_1d2cc1bc-8c5d-5bc7-b80e-db7c7e63b974.html

And, of course, four new bills have been introduced to bring the Ten Commandments back to the Capitol grounds.

Good work, OK Legislature!
Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
AquaMan
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4043


Just Cruz'n


« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2016, 10:16:41 am »

Watched Oklahoma Horizon on OETA this weekend. Always impressed with their even handed approach to Oklahoma issues. The more learned, experienced legislators are all over this shortage with analysis of the budget problems and insightful solutions. Then there are the idealogues that merely pass off the shortage as growing pains in our process of weening ourselves from high taxation and Federal intervention. And of course they prevail.

It was pointed out that the legislature is aware of Kansas' problems but note that they merely weened themselves too quickly. Oklahoma on the other hand intent on spreading the pain out over a ten year period. So, there ain't no learning going on. Its slow motion bankruptcy.

Of note is this sobering fact. About 40% of Oklahoma's budget is dependent on matching funds from Federal programs. They intend to let those funds go to other states so we can be....self sustaining. So, our federal taxes are helping other states but we have the moral high ground. The view isn't so good from the moral high ground.

Logged

onward...through the fog
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12564



« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2016, 11:48:26 am »


Of note is this sobering fact. About 40% of Oklahoma's budget is dependent on matching funds from Federal programs. They intend to let those funds go to other states so we can be....self sustaining. So, our federal taxes are helping other states but we have the moral high ground. The view isn't so good from the moral high ground.



That high "moral" (immoral) ground is from the bottom of a $1 billion hole.




Today's Oklahoma legislative minute....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg&list=RDInRDF_0lfHk&index=25

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 11:49:58 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 29287



« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2016, 01:22:34 pm »

Watched Oklahoma Horizon on OETA this weekend. Always impressed with their even handed approach to Oklahoma issues. The more learned, experienced legislators are all over this shortage with analysis of the budget problems and insightful solutions. Then there are the idealogues that merely pass off the shortage as growing pains in our process of weening ourselves from high taxation and Federal intervention. And of course they prevail.

It was pointed out that the legislature is aware of Kansas' problems but note that they merely weened themselves too quickly. Oklahoma on the other hand intent on spreading the pain out over a ten year period. So, there ain't no learning going on. Its slow motion bankruptcy.

Of note is this sobering fact. About 40% of Oklahoma's budget is dependent on matching funds from Federal programs. They intend to let those funds go to other states so we can be....self sustaining. So, our federal taxes are helping other states but we have the moral high ground. The view isn't so good from the moral high ground.



So basically, they figure Oklahoma should be a 100% donor state.  Got it.

Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
Hoss
I'm a Daft Punk
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 11238


I might be moving to Montana soon...


WWW
« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2016, 02:46:21 pm »

So basically, they figure Oklahoma should be a 100% donor state.  Got it.



Isn't that really wealth redistribution?  And by proxy communism?

 Shocked
Logged

Libertarianism is a system of beliefs for people who think adolescence is the epitome of human achievement.

Global warming isn't real because it was cold today.  Also great news: world famine is over because I just ate - Stephen Colbert.

Somebody find Guido an ambulance to chase...
dbacksfan 2.0
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1498


« Reply #110 on: February 16, 2016, 03:32:21 pm »

Isn't that really wealth redistribution?  And by proxy communism?

 Shocked

Da! And dis is your new government home.




See? Everybody same now commrade.  Wink
Logged
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 29287



« Reply #111 on: February 16, 2016, 03:50:02 pm »

Isn't that really wealth redistribution?  And by proxy communism?

 Shocked

You have to remember, most of the legislators were educated in, well, Oklahoma shcools.  Need I say more?
Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12564



« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2016, 03:56:15 pm »

You have to remember, most of the legislators were educated in, well, Oklahoma shcools.  Need I say more?


Or worse yet - home schooled.

Logged

"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 29287



« Reply #113 on: February 16, 2016, 04:16:05 pm »


Or worse yet - home schooled.



They couldn’t have all been schooled at Sally Kern’s house.
Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
swake
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7795



« Reply #114 on: February 16, 2016, 04:57:37 pm »

They couldn’t have all been schooled at Sally Kern’s house.

Interesting fact. Sally's husband, Steve Kern is not just a pastor at a large Baptist church in OKC but is also a PROFESSOR at Hillsdale Freewill Baptist College in Moore.
Logged
cannon_fodder
All around good guy.
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 9379



« Reply #115 on: February 16, 2016, 05:12:00 pm »

Ideologically, Oklahoma has made it very clear that we oppose abortion. I doubt there is anyone in the nation, let alone in the Great State of Oklahoma, who does not understand this.  The point has been made, the horse that made the point died, we then beat that horse for a decade, and now we are riding that pulp off into the sunset. Lets all just agree: abortion is not a desired outcome and it is in our interest to try and reduce the abortion rate.

Before we get to that sunset, there is a fork in the road.

One direction continues on the direction we have been going for fifty years. It is subject to much contentious litigation which it loses more often than not, at great expense. Statistically, it has little or no impact on "unwanted" pregnancies and little impact on the abortion rate. But it allows legislatures to pander to constituents.

The other fork leads down a path that actually addresses the underlining problem. It has been shown to reduce "unwanted" pregnancies (including the teen birth rate) and significantly reduce the abortion rate. It correlates extremely well with increased health initiative in many ancillary areas and reduces dependency on medicaid and other social welfare programs. In other words, it actually addresses the problem, has the desired result, and saves the state money. But it involves instituting science based curriculum and actually address sexual health with people who are statistically likely to be having sex (there are no gays in Iran, and teenagers in Oklahoma don't have sex).

There is a third option: to put on some rubber boats, stand in the pulp of the dead horse and pretend that we are riding off towards the sunset while we do nothing. And option #3 might actually be more productive than the option we will probably go with. Commence wasting money and obtaining no results.  (please note, I am not trying to take any moral stand whatsoever on abortion, merely that there are proven methods that have been shown to reach our desired goal of reducing the abortion rate and cutting back on "welfare moms." Both goals I agree with.)
- - -


Re the budget hole:  
A) Oklahoma is a poor state. We have always been a poor state.  In 2014, the peak of the oil boom, Oklahoma was #41 for median household income (only a 17% poverty rate!). In 2000, before the boom started, we were 47th. Now, given that most of the states we passed are not oil producing states (Tennessee, Alabama, KY, etc.) - do you think we are likely to move out of the bottom 10 or slump back down?  My money is we slump back down to the bottom 5. We are a poor state, getting poorer.

B) Nationally, the best correlation to earnings is education. There are notable exceptions for people who find an opportunity, work hard, and see it through - but by far the best statistical method to increase earnings is to increase education.

C) There is also a painfully clear correlation between taxes and governmental revenue. When taxes go up, revenue goes up. And vica versa. All subject to the unknown diminishing returns of the Laffer curve.   Study after study and various analysis , as well as quick and basic math - bear this out.  If we cut tax revenue by 10%, we need the economy to grow by more than 11% to recoup the same tax revenue we lost. And that simply doesn't happen (we recoup less than 1/3rd of the lost revenue). If we want to cut taxes for other reasons, FINE... but don't pretend you are growing the economy.

D) It is also clear that inefficient government and/or too much tax revenue is not the issue. With a solid republican majority in the house, senate, and governors mansion we have carefully set budget priorities. Yet we remain with failing infrastructure, school funding near the bottom of the barrel,  and a massive and growing budget gap. So either our Republican leadership is grafting all the funds, spending it unwisely, or there 'taint enough money.

E) Finally, Oklahoma suffers from an image problem that appears to be costing us economically: we struggle to maintain or attract high quality jobs. Our primary economic selling points are:
- "have oil in the ground;"
- "our citizens are wiling to work with bare minimum rights and for low wages;" and
- "we will pay you to come here either with direct kickbacks, or deferring taxes such that someone else will pay your way."  


Our solutions from our benevolent legislative overlords are:

A) We may be a poor state, but we don't need that money from the hippies in Oregon, California, New York, Maryland and Connecticut. Keep your federal dollars!

B) Educated people may statically make more money, live longer, happier and healthier lives, and cause less societal issues (require less welfare, commit less crimes, etc.) - but we don't need no education. In fact, we can continue to cut education and save them dollars for the casino. Chaaaa Ching!

C) Sure, economics might easily show that lowering taxes will not increase revenue. But we reject your reality and substitute our own. We're rich suckers! More tax cuts all around!

D) "We are out of money because government sucks and everyone who has been running it is corrupt and incompetent. Now reelect me or my anointed successor, Scott Pruitt . What we need is more of the same." (note, i don't care what letter is next to your name. Its funny when your policies have failed and you call them failures, and then insist on doubling down. See, e.g. on the other side, Clinton on the "don't inhale" war on drugs)

E) Image problem schmimage problem. Other than Dollar Thrifty, Citgo, and Hilti - try to name a single fortune 500 company that has moved their HQ away from Tulsa in the last 30 20 10 6 years! Plus, we've added a thousand minimum wage Macy's jobs, the Direct TV call center, and another thousand jobs at Tulsa Hills. We don't have no stinking image problem! We are a pro sports state! What we need is more legislation that is derided by the people in the educated states that are hoarding all the good jobs. That'll do it!


So as you can see, we don't really have any problems.
- - -
Logged

- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.
cannon_fodder
All around good guy.
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 9379



« Reply #116 on: February 16, 2016, 05:54:01 pm »

Anyone who is surprised by the direction our political leaders are trying to take education just hasn't been pay attention. IT IS THE OKLAHOMA GOP PLATFORM. Here it is. Killing off public education is all but a stated goal. It reads closer to a church statement of beliefs, but without the love and forgiveness.  Ironically, this is a lesson we did NOT learn from Kansas when they repeatedly get beat down on the introducing religion via education lesson.

Quick, where is this quote from:
Quote
Our Great Fathers based our Constitution, Jihad for Independence, rights of men, and laws on the Koran and on traditional Sharia Law, as well as Muslim ethics and values. We believe these documents are the basis for law, order, and behavior of all but the infidel.


Actually, I barely changed the real quote from the OK GOP Platform:
Quote
Our Founding Fathers based our Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and laws on the Bible and on traditional Judeo-Christian ethics and values. We believe these documents are the basis for law, order, and behavior.
Can you imagine the outrage at the first sentence?

It goes on and on about advocating the exact thing we all pretend to be surprised by: the "homosexual agenda," making "sodomy" illegal, drug testing welfare recipients, religious freedom to discriminate laws...everything that the media has made fun of and the Facebook Memes have mocked is right there in the platform. Including all of Sally Kern's hate. She isn't an outlier, it's the platform.

Anyway... back on education. Here is what they have to say about education, and I am not using mock quotes:

Quote
II. EDUCATION

Preamble:

We acknowledge our dependence upon Almighty God and ask His blessings upon our students and their parents, teachers, and nation.

That's the first sentence in education. Starting off strong by invoking God in the first sentence on educational curriculum more than the founding fathers did in the entire Constitution...

Quote
It is the right and responsibility of parents (hereafter to mean parents and/or legal guardians) to direct their children’s upbringing and education whether public, private, charter, or home school without interference, regulation, or penalty from the government. The primary goal of public schools should be to teach proficiency in the basic subjects of phonics-based reading, written and oral communication, mathematics, sciences, history, founding documents, Godly heritage of our nation, critical thinking skills, basic morals, and civics. Locally elected school boards should have the authority to determine and implement all public school curricula, policies, and procedures for their districts. We demand excellence and accountability from all tax-funded institutions of education in Oklahoma. The federal government has no constitutional role in education; furthermore, we support the creation of a free-market education system, including the use of vouchers and/or tax credits. We believe Oklahoma students are among the best and brightest and deserve a quality education.

If that isn't clear enough of an intention statement, lets clarify...

Quote
1. The traditional family unit, consisting of a (husband) man, (wife) woman, and child(ren) is the foundation of our social structure. The Oklahoma Department of Education and the various Boards of
Regents should uphold and teach this definition of traditional family at all levels of public and higher education.

Quote
8. The Ten Commandments should never be barred from view in public schools as a means of moral guidance along with our national motto "In God We Trust" and the Bill of Rights. Public  schools shall not prohibit the teaching of the Judeo-Christian worldview upon which our country was founded.

Quote
B. Curriculum
1. The heritage of the United States of America should be taught in public schools and include representative government, limited government, the lives and beliefs of the Founders, influence of the
Bible and religion on our laws and principles, and the concept of free enterprise.

Do you think they really want Thomas Jefferson's views on religion taught? Let alone Franklin's?

Quote
2. Where evolution is taught, intelligent design and competing origin theories must be taught as well.

No, that's not how science class works. "Physicists, astronomers, and geologists might be right - but it is also possible that the Flying Spaghetti Monster touched us all with His Noodly Appendage and the world became his meatball." Please don't teach my kid that. He's messed up enough as it is. If I want to teach him my religious perspective on how the world was born, I will. Also, pesky matter of the US Constitution forbidding this type of thing for the last couple of generations.

It gets so bad I just have to paste the whole thing:

Quote
3. Local school boards should exercise their right to choose curriculum and textbooks, including the Bible as a literature or history text, without state limitations.
4. Parents must maintain the right and responsibility to educate their children regarding sexuality and sexual conduct. Neither classroom instruction nor school-based health services shall usurp parental
rights to educate their children.
5. We oppose the portrayal of homosexual or promiscuous behavior in a positive light in public schools.
6. Multiculturalism that promotes cultural segregation should not be taught. We respect different cultures and support teaching our commonalities as U. S. citizens.

Not a "historical text," which I would support so long as they are reading a variety of world religious texts (wait, is that multiculturalism?). But they want to use it as a history text. Catholics do not believe the Bible is a literal history lesson, Catholicism is not a fundamentalist religion while some other Christian sects are. Which is one problem trying to have the government teach religion.

- - - - -

I am a fan of private education and I am a fan of religious education. I want to Catholic schools and received a top notch education.  My son went to a Catholic school and they did a great job. But I chose, and my parents before me chose to send the kids to a religious school. And those schools met Federal and State standards for education, in addition to teaching us religious beliefs.  Hijacking the government to teach your religious beliefs to everyone is what they do in Muslim countries in which we claim to hate their religious intolerance.  If you want to have your kid receive a religious education or some other form of education, then pay for it like I am.

Calling for the teaching of your beliefs by the government and doing it in the name of freedom is called hypocrisy. My religious leaders and I will teach my child what I choose to teach him regarding religion, not you. In exchange, I will stand up and insist the government doesn't try to dictate what your religious leaders teach your kids in your place of worship.  If we do it any other way, then the "majority religion" rules and forces their edicts on you - which is why some Pilgrims left England 400 years ago.
Logged

- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 29287



« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2016, 07:42:40 pm »

- which is why some Pilgrims left England 400 years ago.

I just re-named my beloved Bronco “Mayflower”.

Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
swake
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7795



« Reply #118 on: February 16, 2016, 08:07:53 pm »

I think Cannon has crushed all the grooves now.

Excellent work.
Logged
dbacksfan 2.0
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1498


« Reply #119 on: February 16, 2016, 09:06:32 pm »

Post of the year CF! Very well done!
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org