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September 15, 2019, 12:14:46 pm
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Author Topic: Downtown Development Overview  (Read 318690 times)
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« Reply #1470 on: September 06, 2019, 04:08:59 pm »

Besides Yeti, everything there that was there 5+ years ago is still there: Sound Pony, Cains and a rotating food truck or two. Plus now there's Inner Circle which was an excellent addition that used up an empty lot. What else has slipped away?

Soon the OKPop museum will be there along with the huge GKFF project to the west. Seems like a huge boost for the area. Hunt Club is still there. I know prices will probably go up, but it doesn't seem like tons of stuff is going, just new additions slowly.

The big wild cards along Main are at the Cameron intersection.  You have the LA King property on the east side that the Hanson brothers want to develop into a brewery/studio.  And then the empty lots on the west side where the Tulsa Parking Authority intends to build a parking garage on the south portion.  No development plans currently for the grassy lot to the north. 
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« Reply #1471 on: September 06, 2019, 05:32:23 pm »

The big wild cards along Main are at the Cameron intersection.  You have the LA King property on the east side that the Hanson brothers want to develop into a brewery/studio.  And then the empty lots on the west side where the Tulsa Parking Authority intends to build a parking garage on the south portion.  No development plans currently for the grassy lot to the north. 

The Hanson brewery is delayed because it's the staging/crane area for Davenport Lofts.

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/downtown-hanson-family-construction-delayed-again/
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« Reply #1472 on: September 09, 2019, 07:00:36 am »

Besides Yeti, everything there that was there 5+ years ago is still there: Sound Pony, Cains and a rotating food truck or two. Plus now there's Inner Circle which was an excellent addition that used up an empty lot. What else has slipped away?

Soon the OKPop museum will be there along with the huge GKFF project to the west. Seems like a huge boost for the area. Hunt Club is still there. I know prices will probably go up, but it doesn't seem like tons of stuff is going, just new additions slowly.

Of course they are still there. Nothing has opened yet. Slowly new places come in and the old places are pushed out. Thankfully we still have Kendall Whittier, which has a local feel like Downtown used to have.
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« Reply #1473 on: September 09, 2019, 10:02:47 am »

Of course they are still there. Nothing has opened yet. Slowly new places come in and the old places are pushed out. Thankfully we still have Kendall Whittier, which has a local feel like Downtown used to have.

By "local feel", do you mean "grungy" or "limited"?   Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the Whittier Square area, and love Calaveras.  But there is, what, one actual bar?  (Heirloom is two blocks West, but if you count that, then you have to count most of the Arts District and not just the Cains area...) 

 
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« Reply #1474 on: September 09, 2019, 12:13:23 pm »

By "local feel", do you mean "grungy" or "limited"?   Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the Whittier Square area, and love Calaveras.  But there is, what, one actual bar?  (Heirloom is two blocks West, but if you count that, then you have to count most of the Arts District and not just the Cains area...) 

 


Have you been to the Whittier District recently? There's an amazing new bar 473 which might be among the nicest/most interesting bars in Tulsa. It looks like something that belongs on South Congress in Austin. It's a block from Calaveras.

From Fair Fellow Coffee on the corner, there's a new bar (Whittier Bar), and along there is a stretch of 5-6 new retail places and a design shop, all in nice newly renovated places. Going back the other way, towards the west from Calaveras there's about half a dozen newer shops along with some that have been around a while.
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« Reply #1475 on: September 09, 2019, 12:22:19 pm »

Of course they are still there. Nothing has opened yet. Slowly new places come in and the old places are pushed out. Thankfully we still have Kendall Whittier, which has a local feel like Downtown used to have.

I like both. They both have a completely different make up.

Almost everything in the Tulsa Arts District is local: Living Arts, Dos Bandidos, TU Art Gallery, AHHA, 108 Contemporary, Philbrook Downtown, every single bar, Caz's Chowhouse, Laffa, Amelias, New restaurant at Guthrie Green, Cains, Inner Circle/Sound Pony/Hunt Club, Ok Joes, Violin shop, Prairie Brewpub, Mainline, Gypsy, Chimera, Tavern, Bull in the Alley, Valkyrie, Phryme, Glacier, Que Gusto, Lone Wolf, Magic City, Duet, Made, Guitar House of Tulsa, Elgin Park, etc etc...

How could it possibly get any more local than that? And most of those places have been open for ~4+ years.
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« Reply #1476 on: September 09, 2019, 01:11:41 pm »


Have you been to the Whittier District recently? There's an amazing new bar 473 which might be among the nicest/most interesting bars in Tulsa. It looks like something that belongs on South Congress in Austin. It's a block from Calaveras.

From Fair Fellow Coffee on the corner, there's a new bar (Whittier Bar), and along there is a stretch of 5-6 new retail places and a design shop, all in nice newly renovated places. Going back the other way, towards the west from Calaveras there's about half a dozen newer shops along with some that have been around a while.

I forgot about 473.  Was there a week or so ago.  Solid place.  (Although, it lends itself to outside.  I'll be curious to see how well it manages the winter.)  My "one bar" was the Whittier, which is also cool.  But, that's just two.  My point wasn't to trash Whittier Square area, in fact when we were there recently my thoughts were that this area is getting ready to boom.  But right now, there can't be too much comparison between WS and TAD, as they are fundamentally different size areas.

Interesting aside.  I agree with your comment on 473 fitting in on SoCo in Austin.  But that area has changed greatly in the last few years and a lot of the old places aren't there anymore.  Gentrification (in Austin, or Tulsa) does change things.  But at least the Continental Club is still there, and my brother in law's house (two blocks off SoCo) has about quadrupled in value since he bought, so they got that going for them.  Which is nice... 
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« Reply #1477 on: September 09, 2019, 04:43:51 pm »

I love 473, have been there 3-4 times now; the Whittier bar is meh. I also agree that Kindle Whittier area is just waiting to boom. My ultimate pipedream of that area has a true speakeasy in that building neighboring 473 (to the east, across the street), a green space replacing the lot in front of Ziegler Picture Frames, a locally sourced bodega, and a late night eatery and/or a regular course of food trucks.
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« Reply #1478 on: September 10, 2019, 09:07:45 am »

I forgot about 473.  Was there a week or so ago.  Solid place.  (Although, it lends itself to outside.  I'll be curious to see how well it manages the winter.)  My "one bar" was the Whittier, which is also cool.  But, that's just two.  My point wasn't to trash Whittier Square area, in fact when we were there recently my thoughts were that this area is getting ready to boom.  But right now, there can't be too much comparison between WS and TAD, as they are fundamentally different size areas.

Interesting aside.  I agree with your comment on 473 fitting in on SoCo in Austin.  But that area has changed greatly in the last few years and a lot of the old places aren't there anymore.  Gentrification (in Austin, or Tulsa) does change things.  But at least the Continental Club is still there, and my brother in law's house (two blocks off SoCo) has about quadrupled in value since he bought, so they got that going for them.  Which is nice... 

No doubt gentrification tends to do that. I pointed out that almost every single place in the Arts District is local which is almost unheard of in those types of districts around the country. One big part is that retail landlords can't really charge an arm and a leg because the market for retail isn't white hot (tons of vacancies downtown overall). Another big part is that GKFF is the biggest part of the Arts District boom and they specifically brought in locally owned places so the area is a concentrated display of Tulsa's arts and businesses.

So I don't see gentrification ruining much of what the Arts District is because it was a bunch of non-profits working together to build it up and they're still some of the major land lords. The other 2 major land lords have had a vested interest in keeping the character of the area (and keeping places like Caz's there). The main one, David Sharp, kicked out a liquor store decades ago and lost out on all of that rent just to help improve the area (https://www.newson6.com/story/20929692/the-man-who-owns-downtown-tulsa). Who knows what the future holds, but the direction of the District seems it has been on a great path and so we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

If the Arts District hasn't been kicking businesses out during the last few years with the real estate market as hot as ever, I don't forsee the area ever becoming like Austin in that regard where prices are so outlandish that they'll push out the local places or demolish all old buildings to build skyscrapers (already did that in Tulsa decades ago!). Tulsa has areas like Whittier, Pearl, Deco District, 11th-Lewis, etc where businesses can move and still get affordable rent or real estate and so that boosts the competition so land lords downtown can't successfully overcharge too much. Austin is pretty crowded and far more saturated. It's more of a landowners market. I'm guessing the continuing O&G downturn plus the next recession will do far more to close local places in the Arts District. That'll put a lot of pressure on GKFF to keep museums going and be forgiving of tenants.

Now Tulsa downtown housing is another thing, but even that is getting a bit more reasonable with more competition now.
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« Reply #1479 on: September 13, 2019, 06:55:56 am »

Not a high end steak house. Empire Pizza from OKC. If it has to be a restaurant that is a way better fit.
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« Reply #1480 on: September 13, 2019, 09:33:55 am »

Not a high end steak house. Empire Pizza from OKC. If it has to be a restaurant that is a way better fit.

Why? A better fit because there's already a dozen pizza places downtown? Can people not get more creative than that?
There's even a pizza food truck right across the street there at Inner Circle most the time, Okie Goodness. So many mediocre concepts in crowded markets. And people wonder how most restaurants fail within a year. It seems Joe Mammas was surprised and bitter at closing down so quickly, despite shutting down for 3+ years and then entering an already-saturated market in a new spot that was far worse than the original location.



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It's like how many pizza places can downtown support? Apparently 2 less than when Joe Mammas and Hey Mambo had it at its peak, which was around 12.  So I guess ~8-10.

Sorry Empire, downtown reached its max pizza places. Better be prepared to make outstanding pizza at a great price to force someone else out of business or shutter within a couple years.
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« Reply #1481 on: September 13, 2019, 09:45:58 am »

Why? A better fit because there's already a dozen pizza places downtown? Can people not get more creative than that?

I said it was a *better* fit for that location than a high end steak house.  Roll Eyes A restaurant is not my choice for the old Yeti.

And what dozen pizza places are there Downtown? What pizza is there in the TAD? Elgin Park and Huh Do they stay open late?

Food trucks are unpredictable with timing and service. Have you been to Empire? It is consistently rated a top pizza place.
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« Reply #1482 on: September 13, 2019, 12:42:42 pm »

I said it was a *better* fit for that location than a high end steak house.  Roll Eyes A restaurant is not my choice for the old Yeti.

And what dozen pizza places are there Downtown? What pizza is there in the TAD? Elgin Park and Huh Do they stay open late?

Food trucks are unpredictable with timing and service. Have you been to Empire? It is consistently rated a top pizza place.

You're right that it's better fit for that spot than a steak house (how would customers at a sit down place like the loud music next door on both sides). Just that there's so many types of food downtown is lacking, but pizza is not one of them (Indian food place, better Chinese food open for dinner, Tulsa-based simple/cheap burger chain like Freddies).

I've listed them all before but yes there are 9+ pizza places downtown. Naples Flatbread and Amelia's both have other food also, but pizza is one of the primary things. Elgin Park, Bohemian, Okie Goodness, Andollini's Sliced are all dedicated pizza places and are really good. Then there's the chains (Papa Johns, Mazzios & Dominos). Also, there's another dozen in the areas directly outside of downtown (Cherry St and Pearl).

It peaked at 12 with Joe Mammas and another place open. This will make it back up to 10 again.
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« Reply #1483 on: September 13, 2019, 01:27:00 pm »

You're right that it's better fit for that spot than a steak house (how would customers at a sit down place like the loud music next door on both sides). Just that there's so many types of food downtown is lacking, but pizza is not one of them (Indian food place, better Chinese food open for dinner, Tulsa-based simple/cheap burger chain like Freddies).

I've listed them all before but yes there are 9+ pizza places downtown. Naples Flatbread and Amelia's both have other food also, but pizza is one of the primary things. Elgin Park, Bohemian, Okie Goodness, Andollini's Sliced are all dedicated pizza places and are really good. Then there's the chains (Papa Johns, Mazzios & Dominos). Also, there's another dozen in the areas directly outside of downtown (Cherry St and Pearl).

It peaked at 12 with Joe Mammas and another place open. This will make it back up to 10 again.

Downtown/midtown definitely has a need for a good Indian place.
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« Reply #1484 on: September 13, 2019, 03:11:23 pm »

Downtown/midtown definitely has a need for a good Indian place.

I agree. I hate driving through the traffic to get to Desi Wok and Himalayas is just a bit further than we drive on a normal basis so we just rarely remember it exists. A good Indian place near 15th or downtown would thrive.
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