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July 18, 2024, 11:28:50 am
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Author Topic: Downtown Development Overview  (Read 1135623 times)
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« Reply #840 on: October 14, 2016, 11:47:07 am »

Yes, I believe so. The concrete slab definitely reaches the entire block.

That's good I wasn't sure when they were first doing site work.  That will create a nice street wall along Denver with the YMCA lofts and along 5th.  Is that surface parking along Boulder to 6th and is it shared by the YMCA and the hotel?

5th from Detroit to Boulder is one of my favorite streets downtown.  It still has a couple gaps and retail vacancies but is more "complete" than most downtown streets.  Would love to someday see the Arvest and the parking lots next to it redeveloped into something that better fits the character of the surrounding buildings.
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swake
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« Reply #841 on: October 14, 2016, 11:49:16 am »

That's good I wasn't sure when they were first doing site work.  That will create a nice street wall along Denver with the YMCA lofts and along 5th.  Is that surface parking along Boulder to 6th and is it shared by the YMCA and the hotel?

5th from Detroit to Boulder is one of my favorite streets downtown.  It still has a couple gaps and retail vacancies but is more "complete" than most downtown streets.  Would love to someday see the Arvest and the parking lots next to it redeveloped into something that better fits the character of the surrounding buildings.

I thought the parking for the YMCA lofts was going to be in the basement.
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #842 on: October 25, 2016, 08:01:12 am »

So the Residence Inn along Denver is a 3-4 foot of foundation then a wall above it.  Why are Tulsa developers so loathe to include street level retail space in their buildings?  We talk a lot about walkability on this board and there are groups that meet that are into that sort of thing but the developers won't do it.  Very frustrating.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #843 on: October 25, 2016, 08:03:51 am »

Simply put, the market rate for street level retail hasn't yet hit the level that it makes the hassle of tenants worth it to many developers unless they share our vision, plan for the future, or think that it adds something else to their development.
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« Reply #844 on: October 25, 2016, 08:13:58 am »

Simply put, the market rate for street level retail hasn't yet hit the level that it makes the hassle of tenants worth it to many developers unless they share our vision, plan for the future, or think that it adds something else to their development.

Is the perception that it never will hit that level, or do developers not think past the next ten seconds?
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johrasephoenix
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« Reply #845 on: October 25, 2016, 09:10:48 am »

It's because they can't rent the first floor retail space currently and there's currently a ton of retail vacancy.  Look at the American Residential apartments downtown - Tribune, Metro at Brady, the Edge at East Village - none of them have first floor retail.  The Metro kind of smartly has work/live office loft things on the first floor that kind of mimic the transparency of retail but aren't real storefronts (except for that one on the corner). 

The reality is that the economics of small footprint retail is brutal without tons of foot traffic, which downtown currently does not have.  The new Meridia and TransOK buildings have first floor retail and let's see if they can find tenants.

That said, it can definitely be done.  Elliot Nelson and the Hodges Bend folks have shown that if you have a great product you can attract customers anywhere. The GKFF properties have put in amazing tenants. 

To me, the big problem is that downtown can currently support first floor retail tenants when you land something visionary that becomes a destination like Antoinette's or Elote.  But there's not that many of those to go around.  Hopefully all those apartments going up will get us to where we can support things like a corner falafel shop or 7-11 that aren't city-wide destinations but a place for folks to snag a Diet Dr Pepper.  That's how we get to a point where developers start adding ground floor retail as the default.
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johrasephoenix
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« Reply #846 on: October 25, 2016, 09:17:43 am »

Also - design problem that was briefly discussed by ULI.

Retail is currently not supported by the market downtown, but it will be in the next decade or so.  Once it is, retail generates a lot more income for landlords than the housing above it (and infinitely more than just lobby space that some developments currently have).  

How can we design first floor spaces that can easily change uses 10 years down the road?  Maybe today the first floor is a small office or apartment, but 15 years out when the market changes it can easily be converted into retail space.  That way we avoid the "VACANT - FOR RENT" signs that currently make walking in some parts of downtown so depressing while the market absorbs vacant inventory.

My biggest, wettest dream for all of Tulsa is that one day Boston Avenue will be the city's retail/entertainment/lifestyle destination from the Williams Tower to 6th street, maybe even by the time my grandkids die from the tower to the Boston Avenue Methodist Church.  I love all the other downtown districts but Boston Avenue is the only place in Oklahoma with the opportunity to be truly magnificent, like a smaller version of Michigan Avenue in Chicago or Copley Square in Boston.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 09:19:37 am by johrasephoenix » Logged
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« Reply #847 on: October 25, 2016, 12:48:02 pm »

I share your same vision for Boston Ave as a retail district from 3rd to 6th and eventually further south.  I would add Main St as well.  A good mix of retail and restaurants, especially ones open in the evenings and not just for the lunch crowd. 

As for entertainment we already have that covered in the Blue Dome and Brady, and events at the BOK.  I would love to see a similar "strip" of bars/restaurants form along Elgin from 1st to 6th extending over to Detroit between 1st and 3rd, in the Blue Dome and continue to build up Main from Archer to Cain's in the Brady.

Regarding the Residence Inn at least one retail space should've been put in at the corner of 5th & Boulder.  If Boulder is ever a streetcar route it will need more mixed uses since it has currently very few.
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erfalf
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« Reply #848 on: October 25, 2016, 01:28:34 pm »

My biggest, wettest dream for all of Tulsa is that one day Boston Avenue will be the city's retail/entertainment/lifestyle destination from the Williams Tower to 6th street, maybe even by the time my grandkids die from the tower to the Boston Avenue Methodist Church.  I love all the other downtown districts but Boston Avenue is the only place in Oklahoma with the opportunity to be truly magnificent, like a smaller version of Michigan Avenue in Chicago or Copley Square in Boston.

I see Boston Avenue being much more like State Street in Chicago. More historic, not nearly as touristy. Besides Boston Avenue is the epicenter of the business district as well.

https://goo.gl/maps/ZGcAkip1C292


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DowntownDan
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« Reply #849 on: October 25, 2016, 02:08:27 pm »

But where will everyone park?  Won't someone please think of the parking!!
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #850 on: October 25, 2016, 02:26:14 pm »

But where will everyone park?  Won't someone please think of the parking!!

They have these multi-story buildings called publc parking garages.

https://goo.gl/maps/5t5X1e4Kcun
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #851 on: October 25, 2016, 02:42:17 pm »

They have these multi-story buildings called publc parking garages.

https://goo.gl/maps/5t5X1e4Kcun

Doesn't count.  Tulsans need to see an ocean of surface parking to feel comfortable.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #852 on: October 26, 2016, 08:42:00 am »

I wish everyone would realize that there is a parking problem! In a respectable retail area no more than 1/3rd of parking should usually be used, and no more than 75% should be used at the busiest moment of the entire year. Preferably never getting about 50%. That's science.

And there is a solution. With just a few modifications and some targeted demolitions, we could add ample parking around the core of Boston Avenue to make it a real shopping destination for the area. People from Jenks to Collinsville would feel comfortable coming downtown, finding a parking space, and shopping in our beautiful, dense, walkable, urban city core. I took the liberty of commission a top notch architect to create the following detailed plans and rendering:

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« Reply #853 on: October 26, 2016, 09:26:54 am »

^ What's funny is that is exactly how most new "town center" retail developments are built.  One urban strip with big parking lots on both sides.  Boston already is like that south of 8th, hopefully that area eventually fills in but it's probably 5-10 years from happening.
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Conan71
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« Reply #854 on: October 26, 2016, 10:06:06 am »

^ What's funny is that is exactly how most new "town center" retail developments are built.  One urban strip with big parking lots on both sides.  Boston already is like that south of 8th, hopefully that area eventually fills in but it's probably 5-10 years from happening.

Exactly what Simon Properties wanted to do to Turkey Mountain.
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