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September 29, 2023, 03:00:27 pm
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Author Topic: Downtown Development Overview  (Read 967224 times)
DTowner
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« Reply #615 on: May 06, 2016, 02:56:18 pm »

I think there have been a lot of economic incentives and issues that contributed to a lot of Tulsa’s significantly underutilized buildings becoming surface parking lots over the years - the stadium assessment was simply one more.

And, for what it’s worth, I never liked the idea of the stadium trust controlling the land around ONEOK Field.
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #616 on: May 06, 2016, 03:27:07 pm »


I think there have been a lot of economic incentives and issues that contributed to a lot of Tulsa’s significantly underutilized buildings becoming surface parking lots over the years - the stadium assessment was simply one more.


True, there have been factors and incentives for many years (other than the stadium assessment) resulting in downtown parking lots.  However, I tried to respond to johrasephoenix's following post:


The current incentive structure has favored surface parking lots over preservation for decades.  That should have been changed a long time ago.


The current parking lot incentive structure has not been in place for even one single decade, yet.  My point is that the situation could have been improved in 2009 --- BUT --- Kathy Taylor and the City Council, in their haste, made it worse (because the current assessments are not tied to relative value derived from the existence of the ballpark).  And the City Council and Kathy Taylor approved the parking lot incentive assessment for another thirty years.

I'm not buying the "unintended consequence" line.  If a government wants more of something (such as buildings), then the associated taxes/fees/assessments should be lowered, not raised.

If a government wants less of something (surface parking lots, for example), then the associated taxes/fees/assessments should be higher, not lower.

Kathy Taylor and the City Council were cautioned about their ill-advised stadium assessment scheme and the likely consequences.  The warnings and the arguments didn't matter to them.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 03:39:32 pm by Bamboo World » Logged
johrasephoenix
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« Reply #617 on: May 06, 2016, 05:22:27 pm »

Great points, all.  It's worth reading the saga of Chicago's truly enormous Old Main Post Office, one of the greatest development opportunities in Chicago's booming downtown.  British developer Bill Davies bought it in 2009 for $24m and then sat on it with lots of proposals that came to nothing.  Mayor Emmanual started leaning on the developer hard, eventually threatening legal action to seize the property if Bill Davies didn't do something with it (calling it a civic embarrassment).  The political heat got to the point that it "motivated" Bill Davies to sell to 601W, a big boy developer out of NYC with the resources to put the Post Office back into play. 

There's lots of philosophic arguments to be made on either side.  But at the end of the day Chicago is getting an art deco glory restored.

But apparently its beside the point in OK so no use arguing about it. 

Something else Chicago did while I was there is publish a public list of the city's worst and most notorious slumlords.  The city nailed them for every code violation and went after them hard for every fine and tax dollar.  If a slumlord saw the error of their ways and fixed the problem, they got taken off the list and everything went back to normal.  It was mostly for the worst exploiters of the Section 8 system but it was applicable across the city.  I imagine someone like CJ Moroney would be in the top 5 of Tulsa's list.

Sorry for all the Chicago examples.  It's where I lived most recently and the city I know second best after Tulsa. 
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johrasephoenix
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« Reply #618 on: May 06, 2016, 05:52:20 pm »

Also - I really value the opportunity to throw around big picture ideas about how to make downtown better.  Even though people have very different political / philosophical / value positions on how to get there, everyone loves Tulsa's urban core and we all want to see it restored.

Just sayin'.  
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Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #619 on: May 07, 2016, 05:20:05 am »

Also - I really value the opportunity to throw around big picture ideas about how to make downtown better.  Even though people have very different political / philosophical / value positions on how to get there, everyone loves Tulsa's urban core and we all want to see it restored.

Just sayin'.  

Hear, hear for that!
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davideinstein
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« Reply #620 on: May 07, 2016, 09:37:17 am »

Also - I really value the opportunity to throw around big picture ideas about how to make downtown better.  Even though people have very different political / philosophical / value positions on how to get there, everyone loves Tulsa's urban core and we all want to see it restored.

Just sayin'.  

#TulsaSoccerStadium and we could potentially finance it via the $26M in net assets from the Stadium Trust.
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rdj
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« Reply #621 on: May 09, 2016, 09:16:44 am »

Riding past OneOK field last night it occurred to me: In the 7 years since the City/TDA took control of land for and around the stadium, I don't think any of the City owned land has been developed for anything other than reconciliation park. Rusty Crane opened. Redevelopment of the old bar across from the stadium is ongoing. The new apartments were built. A lot has gone on in the Brady, but I don't think any of the land that was transfer to the City/TDA as part of the stadium deal has been developed at all.

Is that accurate?


I don't think Tulsa Stadium Trust has any land left other than the ballpark itself.  They sold a piece to the Gates Building group (Marshal Brewpub & KSQ), they sold the land at Archer & Elgin for "The View", the land at Archer & Detroit to Patel and I believe that is at they had.  The remainder was owned by TDA or Greenwood Chamber.

The original intention was for a single developer to come in and develop all of the land.  The hope was the developer that completed the KC Power & Light district among other similar developments in Baltimore and Louisville.  While popular with many David Cordish's developments reek of faux urbanism to me.  His group passed after a site visit to Tulsa, but the hope was still there for that to happen.
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Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #622 on: May 09, 2016, 09:23:46 am »

While popular with many David Cordish's developments reek of faux urbanism to me.

I had to look him and his development up just now. And you're completely right. Ew.
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johrasephoenix
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« Reply #623 on: May 09, 2016, 09:53:45 am »

Yeah - developments like that feel great in the short term because you get the goods all at once.

In the long term, though, that faux-ness and propensity for Buffalo Wild Wings like storefronts kills it.  The slow, incremental urbanism we're seeing in downtown Tulsa is agonizingly slow for us mere mortals but in the long term the product is much, much better. 

Kind of sucks for us but our grandkids will think its awesome if they even recognize it.  Much like how I think of an area with buildings from 1915-1935 as a cohesive "district" but for the generation that built it there must have been all kinds of gaps and empty spaces that just bugged the crap out of people on the 1925 version of Tulsa Now. 
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Conan71
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« Reply #624 on: May 09, 2016, 10:19:11 am »

^^That’s funny everyone else got that too.  KC P&L, while a nice development, has always felt too contrived to me.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #625 on: May 09, 2016, 11:31:15 am »

Yeah - developments like that feel great in the short term because you get the goods all at once.

In the long term, though, that faux-ness and propensity for Buffalo Wild Wings like storefronts kills it.  The slow, incremental urbanism we're seeing in downtown Tulsa is agonizingly slow for us mere mortals but in the long term the product is much, much better.  

Kind of sucks for us but our grandkids will think its awesome if they even recognize it.  Much like how I think of an area with buildings from 1915-1935 as a cohesive "district" but for the generation that built it there must have been all kinds of gaps and empty spaces that just bugged the crap out of people on the 1925 version of Tulsa Now.  


Plus teardowns and probably a few fires that eliminated a building, with another taking it's place.

2nd and Main.  circa 1894.

http://www.tulsaokhistory.com/photogallery/2ndandmain1.jpg



http://www.tulsaokhistory.com/photogallery/hallstore.jpg


Some very cool pictures there.  Dawson - old coal mine!  About Pine and Harvard -ish.


« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 11:32:58 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

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patric
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« Reply #626 on: May 09, 2016, 01:47:08 pm »

Some places still use gas lights for the effect which is incredibly inefficient. Acorn lights are similar to that. They create a certain atmosphere which is worth the extra cost in some areas if it can make the place more of an experience...

Seriously though, TU before and after acorn lights was completely different. It turned from just a campus into more of an intriguing little village. I started going there just to see it and experience the atmosphere whereas even when I was a student and for a while after, I had no interest in walking or bicycling around campus, especially at night (I would bike around Renaissance/Florence Park all the time because I like seeing those neighborhoods). The campus was a more sterile boring atmosphere before the fancy lights.

There is simply no comparison between gas Acorn lights and the current-day high-intensity faux Acorns, other than its "dayform" (i.e., not on in the daytime) aesthetic.

Trying to judge a streetlight without seeing how it performs at night is a flawed, yet too-often done practice of past city planning.
Gas-lighted streets a century ago were no where near the intensity we have today, and while those levels would be suitable now for many residential areas, we demand more to improve safety, convenience, nighttime utility and visual acuity of public areas like entertainment districts and sports fields.

Trying to make the optics of a fixture meant for an incandescent gas flame corral the welding-arc brightness of a Metal Halide lamp (or blue-rich LEDs) is never going to work, especially if your plan is to "outrun the glare" by making the light source brighter and brighter.

Once you understand Acorns were meant for moderate-intensity ambiance, they can be really attractive, but if you try to use them as the sole means to throw a few dozen footcandles of light on a street, you become the electric utility's best customer.

Caps on top?  They dont do squat for glare, especially if the dome is frosted or refractive (scatter light). 

My position is to re-fit the Acorns with warm-white sources analogous to the color and intensity of gas or early electric incandescent, and do the work of actual street lighting with shielded, high-mounted luminaires.
You maintain the dayform aesthetic and have warm, inviting well-lit streets at night.
 
Its like having your cake and eating it, too.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #627 on: May 11, 2016, 09:57:19 am »

Not "development or new business" but still a cool addition to downtown: https://www.facebook.com/steve.liggett.52/posts/10156912133085427
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #628 on: May 12, 2016, 08:06:11 am »

Update on the OKPOP museum (added emphasis for key points):

Quote
Tulsa architect to lead OKPOP design team

A team led by local architect Chris Lilly has been tentatively chosen to design and ultimately build the Oklahoma Museum of Popular Culture in Tulsa, state officials said Wednesday.
The decision is contingent upon final contract negotiations between the state and the design team. State officials hope to break ground on OKPOP, as the museum will be known, in the fall of 2017 and open in 2019.
“Every member of the team is A-list,” said Oklahoma Historical Association Director Bob Blackburn.
Lilly, who has been involved in several Brady Arts District projects, including the Woody Guthrie Center, Guthrie Green and Zarrow Arts Center, will be architect of record for OKPOP.
The primary designer, however, will be Overland Partners of San Antonio. That firm’s projects include the Chickasaw Cultural Center in Sulphur and several wings and buildings for the San Antonio Museum of Art.
Also signed on are Tulsa structural engineer Tom Wallace and international consulting firm Arup, whose clients have included the Sydney Opera House and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Headquarters.
Arup’s expertise includes acoustics, something OKPOP Director Jeff Moore said is important to this project.
“We plan to have an in-house studio for recording some of the music we’ll be curating,” he said.
Blackburn and Moore said no conceptual drawings have been presented because the design will be a collaboration among the team, the Oklahoma Historical Society and its financial supporters, which include the George Kaiser Family Foundation.
The design also depends to some extent on location — which, contrary to previous indications, apparently has not been settled.
“We are looking at several pieces of land in (Tulsa),” Blackburn said. “The location is so important, because this museum has to be self-supporting.”
Blackburn said the parcel at Archer Street and Boston Avenue identified a year ago as the museum’s future home is still a possibility but is not the only one.

He and Moore said a decision will have to be made this summer.
Most importantly, Moore and Blackburn said, the design must capture the essence of OKPOP as a “Crossroads of Creativity. … The (Oklahoma History Center) is very traditional in its design,” said Blackburn. “This celebrates creativity. The design has got to be creative.”

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/tulsa-architect-to-lead-okpop-design-team/article_30319384-541b-5614-a37a-ca684623515b.html
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swake
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« Reply #629 on: May 12, 2016, 08:19:06 am »

I don't understand this. BOk donated the land already, the financial plan was that it was to have a parking garage at that location that would generate revenue to help support the museum. The location has great symmetry with the other museums and arts centers right there. What's up?   
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