Downtown Development Overview

[BKDotCom]

I thought (based on posts on here), a lady owned that vacant warehouse who was intent on never selling and only using it for storage. Apparently she hated downtown or something. I cannot understand that mindset: "No, I will never sell this storage building for tremendous life-changing profit because I have a grudge against anything good happening in the heart of my city"

Maybe she is outrageously rich and doesn't care about the money, only stopping downtown development. She also owns 401 W 1st which is right across from the BOK center and while sandwiched in by Sheriff/government/industrial things, could potentially be a neat converted warehouse and brick-facade building.   

Does she also own the corner at 71st & Garnett?

[erfalf]

This sort of reminds me of The West Village in Dallas. Not the style by any means, but the function. This will be the centerpiece of the neighborhood. Tons of residential. If only a fraction of what has happened in the West Village happens here, it will easily be viewed as the most consequential new development this state has seen in decades.

[rebound]

I thought (based on posts on here), a lady owned that vacant warehouse who was intent on never selling and only using it for storage. Apparently she hated downtown or something. I cannot understand that mindset: "No, I will never sell this storage building for tremendous life-changing profit because I have a grudge against anything good happening in the heart of my city"

Maybe she is outrageously rich and doesn't care about the money, only stopping downtown development. She also owns 401 W 1st which is right across from the BOK center and while sandwiched in by Sheriff/government/industrial things, could potentially be a neat converted warehouse and brick-facade building.   

Based on some internet snooping, it looks like she died last August.  All her properties are owned by a trust.  She has/had two daughters, so I assume one of them, or both, would control those now. 

[erfalf]

Does she also own the corner at 71st & Garnett?

Haha

That corner, and until recently the one at Sheridan & 71st have always blown my mind. My mind has pictured a person that is just holding out for the big pay day that was so unrealistic they would never sell. Or siblings squabbling over inheritance.

[SXSW]

This sort of reminds me of The West Village in Dallas. Not the style by any means, but the function. This will be the centerpiece of the neighborhood. Tons of residential. If only a fraction of what has happened in the West Village happens here, it will easily be viewed as the most consequential new development this state has seen in decades.

And the good thing is it has a local development group and construction team behind it.  Unlike the Annex (other than Ross Group is the GC if/when it gets going).  Obviously I hope both are well under construction this time next year, just the sight of two (or three) tower cranes in the Blue Dome will be a sight to see.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Does she also own the corner at 71st & Garnett?

I have completely phased that corner out of my mind for years, knowing it wasn't anything consequential and just industrial buildings, but didn't think about the fact that it looks like someone lives there and that it's such a ridiculous hold out. I bet some company would've paid $500-$1m for that corner at some point but maybe they wanted $2m+ or just don't want to move.

That corner is an interesting plot. Theres a "swoop" along the corner that's about a quarter acre and cuts off the entire larger plot with garages/house. The frontage is owned by Wallace Family Trust (Stated market value of "$100" and only $2 tax/year!). The garages/house are owned by "Garnett Corporation".

I bet it would be pricey to demolish and rebuild those garages somewhere else. I'm guessing they got an offer or two and it wasn't worth the hassle of moving, repurchasing and redoing everything they have. An old garage/workshop can be nearly impossible to replace frugally, with decades of use and customization/add ons that don't add any value to the property but can be very expensive to move or replace. The stated market value is $1m. I'm guessing it's just not profitable for a company to buy, demolish and build a small shopping strip or single-chain restaurant and you have to buy both lots and the Trust probably wants a big pay day. Funny they don't even have room to build anything there and have parking.

Interestingly, both plots are still zoned agriculture.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I have completely phased that corner out of my mind for years, knowing it wasn't anything consequential and just industrial buildings, but didn't think about the fact that it looks like someone lives there and that it's such a ridiculous hold out. I bet some company would've paid $500-$1m for that corner at some point but maybe they wanted $2m+ or just don't want to move.

That corner is an interesting plot. Theres a "swoop" along the corner that's about a quarter acre and cuts off the entire larger plot with garages/house. The frontage is owned by Wallace Family Trust (Stated market value of "$100" and only $2 tax/year!). The garages/house are owned by "Garnett Corporation".

I bet it would be pricey to demolish and rebuild those garages somewhere else. I'm guessing they got an offer or two and it wasn't worth the hassle of moving, repurchasing and redoing everything they have. An old garage/workshop can be nearly impossible to replace frugally, with decades of use and customization/add ons that don't add any value to the property but can be very expensive to move or replace. The stated market value is $1m. I'm guessing it's just not profitable for a company to buy, demolish and build a small shopping strip or single-chain restaurant and you have to buy both lots and the Trust probably wants a big pay day. Funny they don't even have room to build anything there and have parking.

Interestingly, both plots are still zoned agriculture.

I think those are the last surviving buildings from Alsuma - small town that was at that corner.  Used to be a machinist company that made specialty custom flanges like used on pipelines.  Haven't seen much activity lately, since mostly only get by on the weekends, but someone still has some steel blanks for making flanges.  The old guy must be dead by now, cause he was old in the 60's when I visited with him a few times - friend of mine's Dad had a construction company with a warehouse in Alsuma - just a little to the east of the flange guy.  Near where Salvation Army is now.


What's ridiculous about them "holding out" is not their attitude, but the people who marvel that someone would want to stay where they have been for a long time.  Maybe they just feel comfortable and the place suits their work style and business level and they just don't want the hassle of picking up and moving their entire operation just because some outsider thinks they should be solely motivated by the money they could get.  Perhaps they don't like the idea of growth for growth's sake.  Perhaps they have an elaborate counterfeiting operation going that might be exposed to light of day if they were to move.   Or maybe they just want to be left alone to keep it and pursue their own interests without caring about catering to other's opinions about what they should do with their property.   I guess it could be that they don't want to see "progress" of the type being done in the area - cheap, cheesy, temporary strip center development where a place moves in, operates until the 'fad' wears off, then leaves an empty building that becomes just another hollowed out eyesore.   Think Toy's-R-Us strip center on 21st across from old Eastland Mall.  Or Eastland Mall for most of the time that building has been in existence.   Or the stuff to the west of Woodland Hills Mall.



I guess I am a little surprised someone hasn't talked about what a waste Pumpkin Town is one mile north of there.  Just think of all the little strip center shops waiting to go bankrupt could be fit in there!!

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I think those are the last surviving buildings from Alsuma - small town that was at that corner.  Used to be a machinist company that made specialty custom flanges like used on pipelines.  Haven't seen much activity lately, since mostly only get by on the weekends, but someone still has some steel blanks for making flanges.  The old guy must be dead by now, cause he was old in the 60's when I visited with him a few times - friend of mine's Dad had a construction company with a warehouse in Alsuma - just a little to the east of the flange guy.  Near where Salvation Army is now.


What's ridiculous about them "holding out" is not their attitude, but the people who marvel that someone would want to stay where they have been for a long time.  Maybe they just feel comfortable and the place suits their work style and business level and they just don't want the hassle of picking up and moving their entire operation just because some outsider thinks they should be solely motivated by the money they could get.  Perhaps they don't like the idea of growth for growth's sake.  Perhaps they have an elaborate counterfeiting operation going that might be exposed to light of day if they were to move.   Or maybe they just want to be left alone to keep it and pursue their own interests without caring about catering to other's opinions about what they should do with their property.   I guess it could be that they don't want to see "progress" of the type being done in the area - cheap, cheesy, temporary strip center development where a place moves in, operates until the 'fad' wears off, then leaves an empty building that becomes just another hollowed out eyesore.   Think Toy's-R-Us strip center on 21st across from old Eastland Mall.  Or Eastland Mall for most of the time that building has been in existence.   Or the stuff to the west of Woodland Hills Mall.



I guess I am a little surprised someone hasn't talked about what a waste Pumpkin Town is one mile north of there.  Just think of all the little strip center shops waiting to go bankrupt could be fit in there!!

I'm with you on hating that type of cheap cheesy development and all for owners doing what they want so long as it's not hurting the community, especially when selling results in just another chain/generic strip going in. I hate urban sprawl.

It's the warehouse we were talking about above, across from El Guapos that gets me. Their actions are inconsiderate, unproductive and are hurting the rehab of downtown Tulsa. That is their right, sure, but it seems like not selling is an intentional action that is done out of spite rather than care or purpose. The building is a bit of an eye sore and is no doubt a waste of opportunity for someone. They'd easily get a million plus for that property that they probably owe nothing on and is sitting there unused. It's their property, their choice, but that doesn't stop it from being shameful. It hurts walkability downtown and the neat vibe of the Blue Dome dies right there, with no good link to the Brady district.


Everyone has the right to be inconsiderate, selfish, spiteful people, but fortunately most people have better manners than that.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I'm with you on hating that type of cheap cheesy development and all for owners doing what they want so long as it's not hurting the community, especially when selling results in just another chain/generic strip going in. I hate urban sprawl.

It's the warehouse we were talking about above, across from El Guapos that gets me. Their actions are inconsiderate, unproductive and are hurting the rehab of downtown Tulsa. That is their right, sure, but it seems like not selling is an intentional action that is done out of spite rather than care or purpose. The building is a bit of an eye sore and is no doubt a waste of opportunity for someone. They'd easily get a million plus for that property that they probably owe nothing on and is sitting there unused. It's their property, their choice, but that doesn't stop it from being shameful. It hurts walkability downtown and the neat vibe of the Blue Dome dies right there, with no good link to the Brady district.


Everyone has the right to be inconsiderate, selfish, spiteful people, but fortunately most people have better manners than that.

I guess I take more of a Mike and Frank (American Pickers) view of it - there is an old building that has been boarded up for decades that may contain who knows what treasures.  No doubt it seems like ancient history to you, but it wasn't that long ago to me that many of those old buildings just got torn down and replaced by low or no character 'stuff' - growth for growth's sake.  

The owner no doubt had very good reason to leave it alone - first being, that if she sold it, then she gets a big tax bill for no good reason.  On the order of 15-20% capital gains. When/if the kid's trust inherits, at today's cost basis, very likely to have no tax consequence at all, unless the total estate is worth over about $10 million or so, which still provides a buffer even if worth more.  Intentional act to try to preserve the estate.  Selfish?  Shameful?  Yeah - trying to keep as much going to the kids as possible - how dare they think of family first over our societal sensibilities??   Also, very smart.


If you were in that situation, would you have the better manners of costing yourself $150,000+ unnecessarily, just so people could feel better about themselves??

[erfalf]

I'm with you on hating that type of cheap cheesy development and all for owners doing what they want so long as it's not hurting the community, especially when selling results in just another chain/generic strip going in. I hate urban sprawl.

It's the warehouse we were talking about above, across from El Guapos that gets me. Their actions are inconsiderate, unproductive and are hurting the rehab of downtown Tulsa. That is their right, sure, but it seems like not selling is an intentional action that is done out of spite rather than care or purpose. The building is a bit of an eye sore and is no doubt a waste of opportunity for someone. They'd easily get a million plus for that property that they probably owe nothing on and is sitting there unused. It's their property, their choice, but that doesn't stop it from being shameful. It hurts walkability downtown and the neat vibe of the Blue Dome dies right there, with no good link to the Brady district.


Everyone has the right to be inconsiderate, selfish, spiteful people, but fortunately most people have better manners than that.

Is there someone to keep their property taxes down, because you would think at some point the taxes would get so high as to demand cash flow, or just homestead it.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I guess I take more of a Mike and Frank (American Pickers) view of it - there is an old building that has been boarded up for decades that may contain who knows what treasures.  No doubt it seems like ancient history to you, but it wasn't that long ago to me that many of those old buildings just got torn down and replaced by low or no character 'stuff' - growth for growth's sake.  

The owner no doubt had very good reason to leave it alone - first being, that if she sold it, then she gets a big tax bill for no good reason.  On the order of 15-20% capital gains. When/if the kid's trust inherits, at today's cost basis, very likely to have no tax consequence at all, unless the total estate is worth over about $10 million or so, which still provides a buffer even if worth more.  Intentional act to try to preserve the estate.  Selfish?  Shameful?  Yeah - trying to keep as much going to the kids as possible - how dare they think of family first over our societal sensibilities??   Also, very smart.


If you were in that situation, would you have the better manners of costing yourself $150,000+ unnecessarily, just so people could feel better about themselves??

How do you know that's what she was doing? How do you know her kids inherit it? Her "kids" are likely older adults. The $1 million or so value would still be under the estate tax value anyways. Regardless, keeping an old potentially gorgeous structure like that boarded up for decades and refusing to sell it because you hate downtown is disgraceful. If it was purely tax reasons, I can understand that, it just selfish. But if it comes from pure hate of the revival of downtown, it is pretty low.

I see you subscribe to the "Screw you, I got mine" ideology... Forget about society and the common good.


This entire forum is focused on discussing what others are doing with their money and resources and how the government/citizens should react. If everyone should do what's best for their own wallets and forget about common good, civic duty or pride in what the city is accomplishing together, then we should do away with this entire forum. With that attitude, everyone should be able to do whatever they want with any property. Screw everyone else, just do whatever you want and especially screw those who discuss what other people and corporations do with their money.  How dare you say I should build mixed use or put parking in back! How dare you say I shouldn't put a 4-lane driveway mcmansion in Maple Ridge!

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

If you hate a certain area and keep property there vacant/un-restored for the sole purpose of hurting the area, that is spiteful, arrogant and selfish, especially when many others have tried to buy it from you to restore. If you're holding up renovation of a key public area just so you can skirt paying taxes on the actual property value (and essentially pass those taxes to your heirs), then you
 just might be selfish.

Let's hope the property is in hands of someone who will either have it restored it or sell it. It could be a $5/$10 million dollar building and be a priceless link from Oneok Field/Brady to the Blue Dome.

[heironymouspasparagus]

How do you know that's what she was doing? How do you know her kids inherit it? Her "kids" are likely older adults. The $1 million or so value would still be under the estate tax value anyways. Regardless, keeping an old potentially gorgeous structure like that boarded up for decades and refusing to sell it because you hate downtown is disgraceful. If it was purely tax reasons, I can understand that, it just selfish. But if it comes from pure hate of the revival of downtown, it is pretty low.

I see you subscribe to the "Screw you, I got mine" ideology... Forget about society and the common good.


This entire forum is focused on discussing what others are doing with their money and resources and how the government/citizens should react. If everyone should do what's best for their own wallets and forget about common good, civic duty or pride in what the city is accomplishing together, then we should do away with this entire forum. With that attitude, everyone should be able to do whatever they want with any property. Screw everyone else, just do whatever you want and especially screw those who discuss what other people and corporations do with their money.  How dare you say I should build mixed use or put parking in back! How dare you say I shouldn't put a 4-lane driveway mcmansion in Maple Ridge!

Really??   Did you even read what I wrote?   Or just reading to reply?  Your first paragraph....geez...    First, as for her kids - I only know what I read in this thread - that she has two daughters and a family trust.  Don't know if even that is true, but if it is or isn't, there will be an estate and people or entity she wants it to go to.   And because they would probably be older adults, you seem to think that they don't deserve to benefit from the estate...

Maybe they will, maybe they won't inherit, but either  way, AS I SAID and you did not pay attention to, the most likely reason for not selling was to avoid capital gains tax from the sale before she died - to keep that extra 15-20% intact with the estate.   Inheritance doesn't enter into this until after death.   (We will keep it simple this time and not even go into tax consequences after the death, since you didn't pay any attention to what I said about that either.)


Like I asked, and you ignored, "If you were in that situation, would you have the better manners of costing yourself $150,000+ unnecessarily, just so people - strangers - could feel better about themselves??"   ( I bet the answer is no.  Don't lie now...!!)

Maybe you will answer a very simple yes or no question this time...??

Or would you be just as selfish so you would save the estate $150,000+ and make sure your heirs got it??

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Really??   Did you even read what I wrote?   Or just reading to reply?  Your first paragraph....geez...    First, as for her kids - I only know what I read in this thread - that she has two daughters and a family trust.  Don't know if even that is true, but if it is or isn't, there will be an estate and people or entity she wants it to go to.   And because they would probably be older adults, you seem to think that they don't deserve to benefit from the estate...

Maybe they will, maybe they won't inherit, but either  way, AS I SAID and you did not pay attention to, the most likely reason for not selling was to avoid capital gains tax from the sale before she died - to keep that extra 15-20% intact with the estate.   Inheritance doesn't enter into this until after death.   (We will keep it simple this time and not even go into tax consequences after the death, since you didn't pay any attention to what I said about that either.)


Like I asked, and you ignored, "If you were in that situation, would you have the better manners of costing yourself $150,000+ unnecessarily, just so people - strangers - could feel better about themselves??"   ( I bet the answer is no.  Don't lie now...!!)

Maybe you will answer a very simple yes or no question this time...??

Or would you be just as selfish so you would save the estate $150,000+ and make sure your heirs got it??

The tax is insignificant compared to the value of the land. If it were mine, I would renovate it and actually use it rather than sit on it for decades with no use (Or at least lease it. There are ways to lease a building and share or even have them pay for renovation costs). If I couldn't renovate it, I would sell it as soon as I determined that, especially with the market the way that it has been the last few years. I know I would get top dollar for it and that the small tax hit now would be worth it in the long run because the gains from that money invested would likely outweigh the tax. Furthermore, if my kids can't take care of themselves without a huge inheritance, I've failed.

There's a civic duty when you own property, especially in such a publicly used area. Make/keep it nice or sell/rent it to someone who can. It has nothing to do with strangers feeling good about themselves. I've done many things with my properties that didn't necessarily make sense financially but were better for the neighborhood/area.

Once again I see you subscribe to the "Screw you, I got mine" ideology... Forget about society and the common good. Luckily we have people like George Kaiser who donate their entire estate to charity to partially make up for people like you.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The tax is insignificant compared to the value of the land. If it were mine, I would renovate it and actually use it rather than sit on it for decades with no use (Or at least lease it. There are ways to lease a building and share or even have them pay for renovation costs). If I couldn't renovate it, I would sell it as soon as I determined that, especially with the market the way that it has been the last few years. I know I would get top dollar for it and that the small tax hit now would be worth it in the long run because the gains from that money invested would likely outweigh the tax. Furthermore, if my kids can't take care of themselves without a huge inheritance, I've failed.

There's a civic duty when you own property, especially in such a publicly used area. Make/keep it nice or sell/rent it to someone who can. It has nothing to do with strangers feeling good about themselves. I've done many things with my properties that didn't necessarily make sense financially but were better for the neighborhood/area.

Once again I see you subscribe to the "Screw you, I got mine" ideology... Forget about society and the common good. Luckily we have people like George Kaiser who donate their entire estate to charity to partially make up for people like you.

You still aren't  understanding what I am saying - come back when you are 50+ and are looking at estate planning.  Or find a financially comfortable old person you know to talk to about how to do financial planning for seniors.  Maybe they can explain to you the ramifications of this scenario.

If you have so much that a couple hundred thousand don't mean that much to you, that's great!   More power to you!   You are a 1%'er!!   The other 99% of us aren't there yet.