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November 19, 2017, 12:01:46 pm
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Author Topic: How to encourage economically feasible development, not sprawl  (Read 4415 times)
AquaMan
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2015, 09:14:52 am »

Winning is good.  Smiley

The reasons that Tulsa used to be so pedestrian friendly, self sustaining, low traffic and convenient was because the original developers were serving the needs of the time with the ingredients they had to work with. And made good money doing it. It wasn't regulating that gave us all that stuff it was self interest.

The regulations were merely guidance and were influenced by the very people involved. Just like today. So, it follows that sprawl was inevitable.  Even though poor public policy, it grew from customer need and money driven myopia. No amount of disincentives would have stopped it.

Soon, it will not be so profitable and we'll boomerang back or start to decay. Truth is it has already begun. Areas I used to see as elite, well designed, well served and great for resale are now approaching negative on all those characteristics. 51st-81st, Riverside to Memorial. Weird to watch. The retail is sketchy in those areas to me. The huge density of apartments, changing income and racial make-up of the area  is taking its toll. No amount of incentive related to zoning will change that.

Builders, developers and real estate people are about making big money. That is what lured them into the industry. Not sustainability unless it makes them money. Show them how.



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Conan71
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2015, 09:16:16 am »

I like the things you say and having lived in Tulsa before sprawl changed us like midlife changes our bodies, it makes good sense. You can educate everyone, you can educate leaders and still not achieve what you (we) want. This is a time of polarization, pro-growth vs anti-growth. Smart growth vs sprawl etc. Facts mean little. Comparisons with other cities are almost offensive to them. Mindsets are hard to change.

Find a developer who can make money, lots of money, under the zoning changes you propose and with the framework he/she has at hand and you change an entire community.

What rdj said.

And the city would actually prosper better financially.  A member of the TUWC had lunch with the Mayor’s ED, Clay Bird, last week.  Between that meeting and Bird's comments in regards to smart development at the forums discussing the Simon development on Turkey Mountain, it is clear that this administration has never been schooled in smart development or simply chooses to ignore it and play dumb.  They figure if you just keep building there will be enough critical mass to overcome all the attendant costs to the infrastructure.

At no point in Tulsa’s recent history am I aware that we have managed to outstrip the costs associated with sprawl in new revenue.  With Tulsa’s predictable growth rate of 1-2% per year, there simply is no way to make it sustainable.
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carltonplace
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2015, 11:01:39 am »

Realtors in this town don't help, they consistently steer new Tulsa residents to the suburbs for housing options. I've met lots of people who tell me they bought in Bixby, Owasso, Jenks when they moved here for work because their realtor told them they did not want to buy/could get more/avoid TPS in the suburb than in Tulsa. 
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TeeDub
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2015, 03:57:38 pm »

Given the option...   Would you want your children to go to TPS?

I understand that Booker T. is a wonderful high school....   But what if your kid doesn't make it?   Why not have your child be safe with all the other white kids in the suburbs?

(Not sure if that is racist or truth....   Or both.)
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rdj
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2015, 05:00:05 pm »

When I  moved to Tulsa my realtor steered me away from west Tulsa even though I liked a couple houses over there and thought they were a good value.  We knew we didn't want to live in the 'burbs, so midtown was where we landed at the time.

TPS has wonderful options for education from K-12 at multiple sites, not just Booker T.

You also have to look at ease of development.  Developing a subdivision involves more than just slapping houses up, it involves sewer, stormwater, electrical infrastructure, cutting streets, etc.  The land in Jenks and Bixby and southern BA is infinitely easier to cut streets, dig sanitary sewer, etc than land in east or northwest Tulsa.  I have worked on plans for a couple different projects in east Tulsa and the development costs are much higher and the timeline much longer than doing a similar development in Bixby.  When coupled with the perceived superior educational and retail amenities it is a no-brainer for the developer, builder, realtor and homebuyer to keep the sprawl south.  You have similar issues with redevelopment in the pockets around downtown.  To amass the land needed to make it worthwhile for a builder to do a consistent project your acquisition timeline and costs is completely different when buying from 30-40 homeowners that each speculative dollars than it is buying a 120 acre tract of land.  A builder cannot make consistent cash flow doing onsies and twosies in various neighborhoods throughout midtown.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2015, 07:17:33 pm »

Given the option...   Would you want your children to go to TPS?

I understand that Booker T. is a wonderful high school....   But what if your kid doesn't make it?   Why not have your child be safe with all the other white kids in the suburbs?

(Not sure if that is racist or truth....   Or both.)


Not a very attractive statement for you. If you think your kid is superior (we all do) then put him in private school. I recommend Holland Hall. Likely he'll graduate and never come back except for holidays!

If he is average or slightly above, you are naïve to think suburban schools will be better for him.  Unless you are simply afraid to have him mix with nonwhites for safety reasons. They are high percentage white but bullies, drug dealers, punks, and thieves (white and non white) attend suburban schools too.

If you want the college campus feel in grade and middle school with an emphasis on conformity and military style discipline by all means go to Jenks. Good football too, though the spirit far outshines the talent. Talk to teachers and administrators from suburban schools and you find they are having the same problems as TPS. Look at their scores on achievement tests and they are not outstanding. Some even on par with low performing TPS schools.

Real estate people are by and large much like the builders and developers they are beholding to. Swayed by big money, big cars, conformity and shiny things.



 
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TheArtist
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2015, 07:52:14 pm »

The city is going to be less and less able to compete with the suburbs for suburban style development, that is one reason why its going to be ever more important that we create good urban development. 

We are not going to be able to compete with the suburbs for a cheap, new, suburban lifestyle and shouldn't want to.  But we will be competing with other cities to see who can offer a quality, premium lifestyle, or cheap crime/poverty ridden one. 
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2015, 10:35:27 pm »

We are not going to be able to compete with the suburbs for a cheap, new, suburban lifestyle and shouldn't want to

I like suburbia but down town should not try to compete with Bixby, Jenks, Owasso....... as a suburban community.

I have said many times, I want to live near a city but not in the city.  If there is no city, I cannot live near it.
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carltonplace
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2015, 06:46:34 am »

Given the option...   Would you want your children to go to TPS?

I understand that Booker T. is a wonderful high school....   But what if your kid doesn't make it?   Why not have your child be safe with all the other white kids in the suburbs?

(Not sure if that is racist or truth....   Or both.)


Is that sarcasm? If not you might want to do some soul searching before your kids end up on an internet video singing vile songs.

I went to TPS, my family too and my brothers' and sister's kids are all doing great in TPS. No safety concerns.
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TeeDub
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2015, 07:41:39 am »


Just trying to play devils advocate.   

Most of the reasons I hear (obviously not a large study) that people don't want to live in Tulsa is the perception of the schools.    Yes, there are drug dealers and gang bangers of every race, creed and color...    Although, it is rare that I hear about "gang violence" in Broken Arrow, Owasso, Jenks or Bixby.

I wouldn't put my kids in private school.   Not that those are bad, but they have their issues too.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2015, 09:35:34 am »

Its rare for a few reasons. They control what info goes out. So does TPS. They are large employers who have influence. Mostly though its because TPS is so large and spread out. There is only one Jenks, one Bixby and one Broken Arrow high school. There are about nine in TPS not including alternative.

My nephew had problems with gangs and drug use at Union but no one really identifies Union with that. But any northside, or east side school is going to have crime in nearby neighborhoods that identifies those schools as problem schools when in reality they are not having those problems because of increased security and administrative efforts.

Follow the money. Real estate agents sell what makes them the most money in the fastest time with the lowest learning curve. That means new construction and new buyers and the burbs. TPS stokes their coals.
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Townsend
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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2015, 02:27:05 pm »


My nephew had problems with gangs and drug use at Union but no one really identifies Union with that.

That is no longer accurate
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AquaMan
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2015, 07:02:32 pm »

Sorry to hear that. Drugs and their attendant behavior have made it into all the schools including private.

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2015, 07:13:29 pm »

Granddaughter was at Union 2 1/2 years ago.  Her comment - "it's sooooo ghetto...." 

She was comparing to school attended in Baton Rouge, LA.
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