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November 22, 2017, 05:59:19 pm
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Author Topic: The Edge at East Village  (Read 12728 times)
johrasephoenix
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« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2016, 11:34:40 am »

I don't think the Edge could support underground parking.  It's rare for a reason.  It's super expensive to build (around $100,000 per space) vs $20,000ish for garaged parking.

Boston has done a pretty good job of eliminating some of the scars on its downtown left by auto-centric infrastructure.  The Big Dig famously buried the interstate through downtown and turned it into an awesome linear park.  It only took like $20 billion in federal dollars and 20 years...

Also really neat is Post Office Square.  They tore down a parking garage and replaced it with an 8 story underground parking structure.  It's totally buried and almost completely hidden from the street.  On top of it is a very nice park and when you're on it you have no idea you're sitting on an eight story inverted parking garage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Office_Square,_Boston

It's not possible in Tulsa (downtown Boston parking can cost you $60 per day) but still kind of cool.

Side note: Massachusettes also stopped accepting federal money for urban highway construction in the 1960s... all that money got turned towards building out the MBTA transit system and other improvements.  Pretty forward thinking for the time.  I wish we had done that. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 11:38:49 am by johrasephoenix » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2016, 12:59:23 pm »

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and to SXSW, I believe Hartford between 2nd and 3rd has been eliminated entirely.

Is the garage entrance off 2nd then or a drive where Hartford used to be?
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« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2016, 01:11:25 pm »


Is the garage entrance off 2nd then or a drive where Hartford used to be?


Garage entry is from Kenosha.
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« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2016, 01:25:11 pm »

Is the garage entrance off 2nd then or a drive where Hartford used to be?

Bamboo is right, no entrance off 2nd. However, I think that is part of the rub, and even I'm a little on board with this. There is a considerable amount of garage that fronts 2nd street. Not wrapped in anything. That being said, to me it's not much different that the rest of the building as virtually none of the rest of the development has any commercial space anyway. SO in the end what's the difference. But that's the appalling part. 2nd street is a main commercial street. Yet, there is nothing on this development on 2nd street. And it's not far removed from all commercial activity. Even less removed once Santa Fe Square is completed. Doubly so if the building to the north is converted into whatever they were planning.
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« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2016, 04:24:07 pm »

Meh. Not perfect. But in my opinion that block, and the projects on that block, are so dense that sometimes you sacrifice perfect urban design for purse density. As some people pointed out above, there are areas of great urban spaces that sacrificial this way for the density. That density then lends itself to the urban corridors that we love to inhabit.

Also worth pointing out that this garage is not in an area that is likely to be an urban corridor. Even if downtown continues to boom, areas will be left as backwaters. Which is fine! This parking garage has the back of the Hartford building just down the street, which then dead ends into Hogan Assessment and the tracks. Across the street is a grassy lot. Certainly the area can (and hopeful will) develop, but the East End has a few lots that can infill, down 3rd the lots around the Fur Shop will build in more and more (with the boxcars and redeveloped Channel 6), Santa Square will be a ton of infill the other way, the Nordam site... if the block across the street comes into that high of demand, the new development will need a lot or garage anyway.

So yeah, Hartford between 3rd and 1st downtown (its entire run), is not likely to be an attractive walking corridor - but I'm OK with that in the great scheme of things.
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« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2016, 05:34:52 pm »

I believe the reason why so many are averse to underground parking in downtown is the same reason the Plymouth Fury capsule was full of water...the Arkansas river water table makes the soil in the area pretty slooshy...if that's a term.
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« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2016, 08:08:52 pm »

I think it's better for the district to have the retail more clustered in this case along Elgin or on the periphery at 1st, 2nd and 3rd.  Elgin should be the "Main Street" though and eventually could be the main drag for entertainment downtown which connects to the ballpark and Brady, the other more arts-oriented entertainment area. 

Keep everything east of Greenwood residential or small commercial with the retail on the "east end" focused around 3rd & Kenosha which has formed kind of its own sub-district.
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« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2016, 11:17:54 pm »

I went by earlier.  What's with the wide setback along Greenwood, for trees?  The Hartford building has some nice ones by the old parking lot there.  Hope they keep those when they build Hartford Commons.

It still feels isolated from the rest of downtown and Blue Dome.  Santa Fe Square should help pull this new development along Greenwood together.

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« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2016, 07:30:21 am »

I believe the reason why so many are averse to underground parking in downtown is the same reason the Plymouth Fury capsule was full of water...the Arkansas river water table makes the soil in the area pretty slooshy...if that's a term.

The bank of the Arkansas River (Riverside Drive) is at about 640 feet. The Courthouse lawn is at 712 feet. The river is not getting in the way of parking garages downtown.
http://elevationmap.net/508-south-denver-ave-w-tulsa-ok-74103-usa?latlngs=(36.1495017639571,-95.99341750144958)
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« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2016, 07:57:35 am »

The bank of the Arkansas River (Riverside Drive) is at about 640 feet. The Courthouse lawn is at 712 feet. The river is not getting in the way of parking garages downtown.
http://elevationmap.net/508-south-denver-ave-w-tulsa-ok-74103-usa?latlngs=(36.1495017639571,-95.99341750144958)
'

My point is that soil is a little like a sponge.  You don't have to go very deep to find water in that location.
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« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2016, 10:11:27 am »

I believe the reason why so many are averse to underground parking in downtown is the same reason the Plymouth Fury capsule was full of water...the Arkansas river water table makes the soil in the area pretty slooshy...if that's a term.


I watched the digging of the basement of the Williams Tower - there was a lot of bedrock they got into, and it was a very deep hole.  Didn't see any groundwater seeps the times I went by there.  Would walk by from time to time since I worked downtown while they were building it.

Would be curious to know if they have water intrusion now....

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« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2016, 11:11:47 am »

I believe the reason why so many are averse to underground parking in downtown is the same reason the Plymouth Fury capsule was full of water...the Arkansas river water table makes the soil in the area pretty slooshy...if that's a term.

Well, that and they hired a swimming pool contractor to build a vault.  Vaults generally keep water out, pools keep it in.  Grin
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« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2016, 01:29:34 pm »


What's with the wide setback along Greenwood, for trees?


I've wondered about the setback myself.  I think it's a separate parcel, Lot 10 of the subdivision, about 40 feet wide.  Years ago, there was a thin building on the west side of the Midland Valley line, which ran through the site.  The building was either on the strip itself, or very near and parallel to it. 

According to the County Assessor's website, the TDA sold the strip of land in November 2015 for $88,000. 

In December 2014, the TDA sold the much larger parcel to the east of the strip along Greenwood.  Maybe, for some reason, the 11 months between those sales didn't allow enough time to incorporate the strip along Greenwood into the overall Edge and Urban 8 developments.  Or maybe the TDA had some special requirements for that strip of land pertaining to both developments.

 

It still feels isolated from the rest of downtown and Blue Dome.  Santa Fe Square should help pull this new development along Greenwood together.


Last time I looked, the Santa Fe Square proposal included a parking garage along Greenwood.  If it's built as the drawing indicates, the garage fronting a public sidewalk will not do much to improve walkability along Greenwood, except for providing some afternoon shade.  Blank garage walls along sidewalks don't enhance pedestrian friendliness.
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« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2016, 07:39:43 pm »

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Last time I looked, the Santa Fe Square proposal included a parking garage along Greenwood.  If it's built as the drawing indicates, the garage fronting a public sidewalk will not do much to improve walkability along Greenwood, except for providing some afternoon shade.  Blank garage walls along sidewalks don't enhance pedestrian friendliness.

Isn't the design still progressing for Santa Fe Square?  Hopefully they can add a retail space along Greenwood or at least design the garage in a way where it could be realistically added later on.  Or wrap the garage with apartments so even if there isn't retail on Greenwood there are "eyes on the street" and a more pleasant walk.

Quote
I've wondered about the setback myself.  I think it's a separate parcel, Lot 10 of the subdivision, about 40 feet wide.  Years ago, there was a thin building on the west side of the Midland Valley line, which ran through the site.  The building was either on the strip itself, or very near and parallel to it. 

Maybe it could be made into a nicely landscaped pocket park.
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« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2016, 09:19:03 pm »


Isn't the design still progressing for Santa Fe Square?


I don't know.  Probably.  I'm basing my comment about the parking garage on the plan shown on page 2 of this pdf link.


Hopefully they can add a retail space along Greenwood or at least design the garage in a way where it could be realistically added later on.  Or wrap the garage with apartments so even if there isn't retail on Greenwood there are "eyes on the street" and a more pleasant walk.


The Santa Fe Square garage needs at least one curb cut and driveway for access.  Except for any entries/exits, the garage should be wrapped, at least at sidewalk level as a minimum.  But I haven't seen any plans showing the proposed garage to be wrapped along Greenwood. 
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