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November 17, 2017, 01:37:54 pm
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Author Topic: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75  (Read 117024 times)
DowntownDan
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« Reply #780 on: June 14, 2017, 08:41:05 am »

With the retailocolypse going on, it's insane to me to build any type of mall, including an outlet mall, from the ground up at this time.  There will be plenty of existing retail facilities (as mentioned, Promenade, Midtown Village, etc.) available for this type of development.  Building a new mall from the ground up, even if successful for some years, will just cause more closings in other parts of town, resulting in a net negative.  It's pure insanity.
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Conan71
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« Reply #781 on: June 14, 2017, 10:22:03 am »

With the retailocolypse going on, it's insane to me to build any type of mall, including an outlet mall, from the ground up at this time.  There will be plenty of existing retail facilities (as mentioned, Promenade, Midtown Village, etc.) available for this type of development.  Building a new mall from the ground up, even if successful for some years, will just cause more closings in other parts of town, resulting in a net negative.  It's pure insanity.

My suspicion all-along with Simon not actually intending to build here hinged on two things:

Simon fought the TIF district for Tulsa Hills saying it was unfair competition for Woodland Hills Mall.  Never mind that Tulsa Hills was a big box power center with retailers whose business model is big box and not mall-oriented.  Ashley, Lowe’s, Dick’s, Best Buy, etc. are not any real sort of competition for Woodland Hills tenants at least not on a store brand by store brand basis.   Then Simon proposed to build an outlet mall one mile north of the Tulsa Hills development with retailers more directly competing with Woodland Hills Mall tenants.  As an aside, they picked not only a controversial place to develop their outlet mall but one which presented many serious site prep challenges and had really terrible highway access.

I personally think the Turkey Mountain site was picked on purpose because the longer they could tie up the TMAPC and Tulsa City Council on an unpopular and possibly impossible to develop proposal, that meant a major distraction from the previously announced Horizon outlet mall in east Tulsa.  I think that ran its course much quicker than Simon anticipated so they had no choice but to find another site (Jenks) to hold until Horizon gave up and went away.

Woodland Hills is one of Simon’s better performing mall properties, why would they seek to dilute that in a market with very minimal population growth?  In a discussion I had with one of the Tulsa City Councilors, he said they were calculating there would be about a 50% scavenge rate off existing retail business for the outlet mall as proposed at 61st & Highway 75.  Let’s assume a fair amount of that 50% would come from Woodland.  I always felt the stated scavenge rate was a bit low, from my research 60% would have been more realistic.  Are people even still really piling in their car to go outlet mall shopping one to two hours away these days instead of taking the convenience factor of online shopping?

If Woodland Hills is worth millions per year to the Simon portfolio, I don’t think it is too far fetched for them to spend $500,000 to $1 million  to ward off potential competitors.

As an interesting historical aside, I was told once by a previous owner of the proposed Horizon outlet site, it was used as a decoy of sorts by the original developers of Woodland Hills to discourage work from resuming on Eastland Mall in the mid-1970’s due to its close proximity to Eastland.  In the meantime, (I think it was Dayton-Hudson) bought the land on the NE corner of 71st & Memorial and the rest is history.
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Townsend
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« Reply #782 on: June 14, 2017, 11:20:12 am »

Full credit for proper use of neeCool



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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #783 on: June 14, 2017, 12:06:37 pm »

My suspicion all-along with Simon not actually intending to build here hinged on two things:

Simon fought the TIF district for Tulsa Hills saying it was unfair competition for Woodland Hills Mall.  Never mind that Tulsa Hills was a big box power center with retailers whose business model is big box and not mall-oriented.  Ashley, Lowe’s, Dick’s, Best Buy, etc. are not any real sort of competition for Woodland Hills tenants at least not on a store brand by store brand basis.   Then Simon proposed to build an outlet mall one mile north of the Tulsa Hills development with retailers more directly competing with Woodland Hills Mall tenants.  As an aside, they picked not only a controversial place to develop their outlet mall but one which presented many serious site prep challenges and had really terrible highway access.

I personally think the Turkey Mountain site was picked on purpose because the longer they could tie up the TMAPC and Tulsa City Council on an unpopular and possibly impossible to develop proposal, that meant a major distraction from the previously announced Horizon outlet mall in east Tulsa.  I think that ran its course much quicker than Simon anticipated so they had no choice but to find another site (Jenks) to hold until Horizon gave up and went away.

Woodland Hills is one of Simon’s better performing mall properties, why would they seek to dilute that in a market with very minimal population growth?  In a discussion I had with one of the Tulsa City Councilors, he said they were calculating there would be about a 50% scavenge rate off existing retail business for the outlet mall as proposed at 61st & Highway 75.  Let’s assume a fair amount of that 50% would come from Woodland.  I always felt the stated scavenge rate was a bit low, from my research 60% would have been more realistic.  Are people even still really piling in their car to go outlet mall shopping one to two hours away these days instead of taking the convenience factor of online shopping?

If Woodland Hills is worth millions per year to the Simon portfolio, I don’t think it is too far fetched for them to spend $500,000 to $1 million  to ward off potential competitors.

As an interesting historical aside, I was told once by a previous owner of the proposed Horizon outlet site, it was used as a decoy of sorts by the original developers of Woodland Hills to discourage work from resuming on Eastland Mall in the mid-1970’s due to its close proximity to Eastland.  In the meantime, (I think it was Dayton-Hudson) bought the land on the NE corner of 71st & Memorial and the rest is history.

That is quite an accusation. Expensive and shady. Could that kind of thing be illegal if proven or do the "official" plans keep them safe from any sort of risk of legal repercussions? Does seem common for big companies to do things like that to stifle competition.

In this case, maybe something good will come of it if we get no outlet malls. There are so many reasons they should not build any outlet malls (environment, online retail, vacant retail, sprawl), but ultimately they will do it if they believe they can make profit.

There's a definitely a market of customers who would rather walk around a fancy new place in the suburbs which entices you to spend rather than shop in an "old" place like the Promenade in "crowded" midtown.
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Conan71
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« Reply #784 on: June 14, 2017, 01:30:20 pm »

That is quite an accusation. Expensive and shady. Could that kind of thing be illegal if proven or do the "official" plans keep them safe from any sort of risk of legal repercussions? Does seem common for big companies to do things like that to stifle competition.

In this case, maybe something good will come of it if we get no outlet malls. There are so many reasons they should not build any outlet malls (environment, online retail, vacant retail, sprawl), but ultimately they will do it if they believe they can make profit.

There's a definitely a market of customers who would rather walk around a fancy new place in the suburbs which entices you to spend rather than shop in an "old" place like the Promenade in "crowded" midtown.

You may or may not be aware, but I was in the middle of the public policy end of Simon trying to build on the property adjacent to TMUWA.  I did a good deal of research on business practices within the industry, I also met with Simon representatives on multiple occasions.  Meetings with them never specifically led me to that conclusion but others I met with in the industry did help form some of my conclusions with reasonable assurance.

Simon pulled a similar stunt on Horizon in Omaha.  Horizon announced they were bringing an outlet mall to Omaha on the heels of a successful development on I-40 in western OKC.  Simon made a later announcement and Horizon dropped out. It was reputed that David Simon swore no other development/management company would ever build an outlet mall in a market where Simon already had other business with traditional or outlet malls after Horizon built the outlet mall in OKC.  

Simon holds most of the cards so they have the stroke with their retailers to say: “If you want in on our Denver, Tampa, and Anaheim projects, you must sign with us in Tulsa and Omaha.”  

They’ve also managed to force end up in joint ventures with Taubman and Tanger in other markets where those developers announced malls.  I did specifically ask a rep from Simon why they wouldn’t partner up with the developer on the proposed outlet on Cherokee Nation land in Catoosa and I was told they didn’t feel that company was pulling their weight on another joint development elsewhere (St. Louis I believe).  That also led me to believe they really didn’t want any part in diluting the Tulsa market from Woodland Hills more than anything else.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:29:49 pm by Conan71 » Logged

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #785 on: June 14, 2017, 03:02:24 pm »








That was "Ni"...
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Townsend
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« Reply #786 on: June 15, 2017, 11:52:28 am »




That was "Ni"...


Go get yourself a shrubbery
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #787 on: June 16, 2017, 07:58:20 am »

Go get yourself a shrubbery



I have a shrubbery!!   Several of them...

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
cannon_fodder
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« Reply #788 on: September 15, 2017, 08:38:12 am »

Surprise!

Quote
When the Jenks City Council rezoned the land, Simon said it would break ground in 2016 and open in the summer of 2017. The groundbreaking didn’t happen. Assessor records, which can be several months behind, show the land has not changed hands yet.

A representative from Simon couldn’t immediately be reached, but an online company brochure indicates the mall is scheduled to open in 2019.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/retail-market-chilling-outlet-mall-proposals-for-tulsa-area-developer/article_9f357c4c-7c0c-5901-9cfb-7c82e957a802.html

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AngieB
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« Reply #789 on: September 15, 2017, 09:01:49 am »


2019? Last time I looked at the Simon website (just a month or so ago) it said 2018. This mall will never happen and Tulsa dodged a huge bullet.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #790 on: September 15, 2017, 02:34:36 pm »

2019? Last time I looked at the Simon website (just a month or so ago) it said 2018. This mall will never happen and Tulsa dodged a huge bullet.

That looks to be the case right now. It is amazing the power of a huge company like Simon to do all this without ever buying any land or having to move any dirt, if this was all really orchestrated like Conan said.

I remember Jenks people being so proud and acting like Tulsa really missed out, not letting them build on Turket Mountain, saying we were getting in the way of progress.. Roll Eyes

Even if it does get built, the delay is ridiculous, but the monumental shift in retail is real and this seems like a waste of resources considering that.
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« Reply #791 on: September 17, 2017, 05:44:37 pm »

That looks to be the case right now. It is amazing the power of a huge company like Simon to do all this without ever buying any land or having to move any dirt, if this was all really orchestrated like Conan said.

I remember Jenks people being so proud and acting like Tulsa really missed out, not letting them build on Turket Mountain, saying we were getting in the way of progress.. Roll Eyes

Even if it does get built, the delay is ridiculous, but the monumental shift in retail is real and this seems like a waste of resources considering that.

The River District where this is planned has the potential to be a much better development, and when first proposed included more high end retail and residential and interacted with the river.  With the dam being built next to this it will have frontage along the new lake.  I know it's Jenks but something like Harbor Town in Memphis would be a unique waterfront development here..





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