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Author Topic: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75  (Read 222331 times)
DowntownDan
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« Reply #600 on: May 21, 2015, 08:55:04 am »

I'm sure this place will be as successful as the Riverwalk.  Also, wasn't this space supposed to be a grand "Villiage on Main" development?  And instead they're now excited over an outlet mall?  Drive down I-35 and see how well outlet malls do long term.  The ones in Gainesville and Waxahatchie Texas are depressing to see.  Good luck Jenks.  Enjoy the temporary tax bubble. 
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swake
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« Reply #601 on: May 21, 2015, 09:20:45 am »

The needed infrastructure for this project in Jenks largely is done. The last part fixing the traffic issues at the Creek Turnpike exit at Peoria/Elm was already passed in a vote last year and starts construction this summer. OTA and Jenks are going to move the exit back from Elm and add one way access roads on each side of the turnpike. Jenks isnít going to need any additional money for infrastructure except maybe to extend 106th from Peoria/Elm to the site.

This site is a portion of the land that was going to The River District. That project went south with the economy in 2008 after leveling the site and building flood detention. This area is in the middle of Jenks but hasn't developed becuase of flooding issues (that were addressed in 2008) and issues with access that are being fixed starting this summer. The Village on Main is a different project that was always going to be done in stages and is being slowly built along Main St. in Jenks. Today the Village site has the newly completed bank headquarters building and parking garage, a health clinic and an unused retail building.

I would like to see the outlet mall take more advantage of the river, but then as Grizzle pointed out, itís not actually on the river. The River District developer is retaining all the land actually on the river and around the little  lake that was created with flood detention.

I think you are going to find that with this project Jenks will use TIF money on the dam and with Jenks and Creek Nation money the south dam is going to be built with or without Tulsa.
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rdj
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« Reply #602 on: May 21, 2015, 09:32:27 am »

I have very mixed thoughts on this project.  The City of Tulsa is heavily reliant on sales tax dollars to fund operations.  Regardless of our thoughts on the quality of the outlet mall the development would provide direct and indirect sales tax benefits.  Personally, I don't find placing a large outlet mall in closer proximity to the river than to Turkey Mountain any better of a solution.  I also don't agree that this was the end game from day one.  Simon hired the best local real estate attorneys to help them get the deal done on HWY 75.  No doubt in my mind the City of Tulsa ED group carried water in getting Simon interested in the region.  Sadly, they may have just brought them to the high school semi-formal only for the City of Jenks to swoop in and take them home.  I now see the Horizon project as dead.

The local demographics of this this location are superior to those along WHY 75, but the access for the traveler is significantly worse.  The attraction to this project is the outside sales tax dollars that are brought in from the interstate traveler that decides to stop on their way thru town.  Let's hope they advertise along the primary highways and folks will stop at establishments in Tulsa city limits as they meander their way to the outlet mall.
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SXSW
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« Reply #603 on: May 21, 2015, 09:36:08 am »

So it looks like in this picture the left side is the RR track with an extension of 1st street and roundabout.  There is an underpass already there where Lewis connects this area to 101st.  Access will entirely be from 101st either on 1st or Lewis.  There is another street shown that I guess could connect to the aquarium underneath the bridge if the clearance was there.  The land actually adjacent to the river would still be vacant and ripe for future development that hopefully would interact with the water.  This would be just north of the proposed Jenks dam/pedestrian bridge.


This actually creates an interesting scenario for this area.  You have this as a retail attraction and potentially some other kind of retail development adjacent to the river to the east.  You have the Oklahoma Aquarium to the north which is a great facility that was recently expanded and could be expanded further into more of a regional attraction.  There's Riverwalk Crossing to the north of that which is seeing a new life with Creek ownership.  And then finally one of the state's biggest project (actually the biggest construction project currently underway in Oklahoma) is across the river with the casino, conference center and hotel.  The missing link is the dam that would create a permanent lake between these things with the potential for a water taxi/ferry running between them. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 09:41:29 am by SXSW » Logged

 
LandArchPoke
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« Reply #604 on: May 21, 2015, 10:26:43 am »

The needed infrastructure for this project in Jenks largely is done. The last part fixing the traffic issues at the Creek Turnpike exit at Peoria/Elm was already passed in a vote last year and starts construction this summer. OTA and Jenks are going to move the exit back from Elm and add one way access roads on each side of the turnpike. Jenks isnít going to need any additional money for infrastructure except maybe to extend 106th from Peoria/Elm to the site.

This site is a portion of the land that was going to The River District. That project went south with the economy in 2008 after leveling the site and building flood detention. This area is in the middle of Jenks but hasn't developed becuase of flooding issues (that were addressed in 2008) and issues with access that are being fixed starting this summer. The Village on Main is a different project that was always going to be done in stages and is being slowly built along Main St. in Jenks. Today the Village site has the newly completed bank headquarters building and parking garage, a health clinic and an unused retail building.

I would like to see the outlet mall take more advantage of the river, but then as Grizzle pointed out, itís not actually on the river. The River District developer is retaining all the land actually on the river and around the little  lake that was created with flood detention.

I think you are going to find that with this project Jenks will use TIF money on the dam and with Jenks and Creek Nation money the south dam is going to be built with or without Tulsa.


There is a very limited amount of land they are retaining along the river. It's basically enough land to build a few hotels (see the Holiday Inn north of the Creek by the Aquarium) or to sell them off as pad site for retailers (see the Waterfront Grill north of the Creek).



The rest of this is land that "belongs" to the River essentially. You'd have to wrangle the Fed in order to develop all the way to the river. This development does nothing to connect the actual development to the area where public amenities are proposed to be placed next to the dam. It will be large swaths of surface parking abutting the new parks.
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Conan71
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« Reply #605 on: May 21, 2015, 01:36:39 pm »

I have very mixed thoughts on this project.  The City of Tulsa is heavily reliant on sales tax dollars to fund operations.  Regardless of our thoughts on the quality of the outlet mall the development would provide direct and indirect sales tax benefits.  Personally, I don't find placing a large outlet mall in closer proximity to the river than to Turkey Mountain any better of a solution.  I also don't agree that this was the end game from day one.  Simon hired the best local real estate attorneys to help them get the deal done on HWY 75.  No doubt in my mind the City of Tulsa ED group carried water in getting Simon interested in the region.  Sadly, they may have just brought them to the high school semi-formal only for the City of Jenks to swoop in and take them home.  I now see the Horizon project as dead.

The local demographics of this this location are superior to those along WHY 75, but the access for the traveler is significantly worse.  The attraction to this project is the outside sales tax dollars that are brought in from the interstate traveler that decides to stop on their way thru town.  Let's hope they advertise along the primary highways and folks will stop at establishments in Tulsa city limits as they meander their way to the outlet mall.

Why do you see the Horizon project as dead?  I keep hearing this from various people in development circles yet the Horizon developers are supposed to be submitting the details of their TIF request in the next week or two.  According to conversations Iíve had with the seller of the Horizon land, that project will be moving forward.

Simon pulled a head fake on Horizon in Omaha, ran Horizon off, then Simon never built in Omaha.  Perhaps Horizon is prepared for this?
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Conan71
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« Reply #606 on: May 21, 2015, 01:38:30 pm »

I bet the TUWC really worked for Simon this whole time. They wanted Jenks to work harder so they made it looked like they were going in Tulsa and then paid TUWC to "scare them off" once the Jenks deal got better.

 Grin

Yeah, thatís the $3.2 million bulge in my back pocket.  Grin

I wish I had $10 for every time I heard: ďYou canít stop this, itís a done dealĒ.  TUWC would have enough to buy the property already.
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swake
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« Reply #607 on: May 21, 2015, 01:44:37 pm »

Why do you see the Horizon project as dead?  I keep hearing this from various people in development circles yet the Horizon developers are supposed to be submitting the details of their TIF request in the next week or two.  According to conversations Iíve had with the seller of the Horizon land, that project will be moving forward.

Simon pulled a head fake on Horizon in Omaha, ran Horizon off, then Simon never built in Omaha.  Perhaps Horizon is prepared for this?

Because Horizon is a tiny company with a market cap of not even $11 million. - Horizon http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=HGPI

While Simon is the nations largest commercial real estate company with nearly a quarter billion square feet of space and a market cap of $57 billion. - Simon http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AvXxGt3k5uevQK9UhrRes0wnv7gF?uhb=uhb2&fr=uh3_finance_vert_gs&type=2button&s=SPG



 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 01:47:17 pm by swake » Logged
DTowner
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« Reply #608 on: May 21, 2015, 01:48:14 pm »

While a win for Turkey Mountain (to the extent that area was ever the real target), this is a loss for Tulsa.  Jenks will now siphon off a good chunk of sales tax revenue from Tulsa.  Iím not the target market for an outlet mall, but if one is coming then better for it to be located in Tulsa proper.  Unfortunately, nothing Iíve heard or read gives me the impression the group behind the east Tulsa outlet mall has the horsepower or muscle to take on Simon and beat them to the finish line.  Too bad.  

As for the development itself in Jenks, it will be on a large flat piece of land next to a highway in suburbia - I would only be surprised if it was something other than a suburban sprawl type of development that ignores its surroundings.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #609 on: May 21, 2015, 01:56:38 pm »

Quote
I now see the Horizon project as dead.

Because Horizon is a tiny company with a market cap of not even $11 million. - Horizon http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=HGPI

While Simon is the nations largest commercial real estate company with nearly a quarter billion square feet of space and a market cap of $57 billion. - Simon http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AvXxGt3k5uevQK9UhrRes0wnv7gF?uhb=uhb2&fr=uh3_finance_vert_gs&type=2button&s=SPG
 

Why does the outlet moving to Jenks make the Horizon deal dead? You think Horizon will go as far as they did and give up? What about the hard rock casino outlet? Do you think they're quitting too because Simon moved their mall to Jenks?
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SXSW
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« Reply #610 on: May 21, 2015, 02:29:25 pm »

If they tweaked their site plan where the bulk of the shops were on the east side of the site against Lewis with the bulk of the parking on the west side it would work better for future synergy between whatever is built on that narrow parcel between Lewis and the river (what you have colored in orange).  Assuming the dam is built with the park as shown that would be an ideal location for a couple restaurants similar to Waterfront Grill or Los Cabos on the east side of Lewis overlooking the park/river.  Then people shopping at the outlets could just cross a street to the restaurants and riverfront park instead of a huge parking lot.
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Conan71
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« Reply #611 on: May 21, 2015, 02:56:46 pm »

Why does the outlet moving to Jenks make the Horizon deal dead? You think Horizon will go as far as they did and give up? What about the hard rock casino outlet? Do you think they're quitting too because Simon moved their mall to Jenks?


Actually, itís rumored that the Cherokees & Woodmont Group have had trouble signing any leases.
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Conan71
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« Reply #612 on: May 21, 2015, 02:59:22 pm »

Because Horizon is a tiny company with a market cap of not even $11 million. - Horizon http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=HGPI

While Simon is the nations largest commercial real estate company with nearly a quarter billion square feet of space and a market cap of $57 billion. - Simon http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AvXxGt3k5uevQK9UhrRes0wnv7gF?uhb=uhb2&fr=uh3_finance_vert_gs&type=2button&s=SPG


Horizon developed the outlet mall in OKC and the master developer for the east side project is Sooner Investment who developed Tulsa Hills.

Iíd say between the two, they have demonstrated the capability. 

Getting the leases is another story, thatís where Simon does have an advantage. 
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swake
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« Reply #613 on: May 21, 2015, 04:09:00 pm »

Horizon developed the outlet mall in OKC and the master developer for the east side project is Sooner Investment who developed Tulsa Hills.

Iíd say between the two, they have demonstrated the capability.  

Getting the leases is another story, thatís where Simon does have an advantage.  

I'm not saying that Horizon isn't a capable developer. But when only one project is going to succeed retailers are going to go with the big boy they have a long record of personal success with. Simon is less risky and and choosing the Simon project maintains the retailer's relationship with Simon.

This is why it was so important to push Simon off Turkey Mountain, the other projects were dead the minute Simon announced theirs.  I still wish Tulsa had done something creative on the river at 21st, but they simply may not have had time. Simon has to move now, a delay could let in one of the other developers.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 04:11:47 pm by swake » Logged
rdj
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« Reply #614 on: May 22, 2015, 07:22:50 am »

Simon has proven o'er and o'er they will play hardball with retailers when it comes to making sure their developments are full.

Want to renew your spot at Woodland Hills?  Better sign on for the Jenks, 'Merica outlet mall or face a serious rate hike.

Horizon can't do that.  Particularly in light of the fact stores have closed at the OKC outlet mall.  Wonder why that site was chosen for store closures?
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