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April 10, 2021, 06:22:25 am
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Author Topic: Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75  (Read 285471 times)
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #810 on: October 22, 2018, 12:47:27 pm »

When the talk of outlets coming to Tulsa, a lot of people mentioned how Oklahoma laws make it where outlet merchandise cannot be damaged/defective/reject items so they're not "true" outlets and that makes them better.

I saw an interesting statistic that about 85% of outlet merchandise is brand-new made-for-outlets. They're just lower quality products made to be sold more cheaply. Most of the time, they're entirely separate operations. The companies are doing a tier system to capture all ranges of the market. Similar to how Banana Republic, Gap and Old Navy were all owned by the same company which markets a bit pricey, medium and cheap, respectively. The outlets are just the lowest tier.

When that outlet jacket says MSRP $99 marked down to $14.99, it's just a sub-par $14.99 jacket to begin with which they slapped a brand name on to snag bargain hunters (who may have no idea what that brand quality usually looks like).


It looks like Oklahoma is about the same as anywhere else in terms of having basically all new made-for-outlet products at Outlet malls. That makes the prospect of an outlet mall even worse in my eyes. Eventually, more people will view outlets as low-quality scams rather than hubs of great deals. Hard to imagine it being much of an emerging market, but I guess they'll try to siphon every penny they can and keep building endless retail so long as those tax perks make it profitable.
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Conan71
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« Reply #811 on: October 23, 2018, 02:48:30 pm »

When the talk of outlets coming to Tulsa, a lot of people mentioned how Oklahoma laws make it where outlet merchandise cannot be damaged/defective/reject items so they're not "true" outlets and that makes them better.

I saw an interesting statistic that about 85% of outlet merchandise is brand-new made-for-outlets. They're just lower quality products made to be sold more cheaply. Most of the time, they're entirely separate operations. The companies are doing a tier system to capture all ranges of the market. Similar to how Banana Republic, Gap and Old Navy were all owned by the same company which markets a bit pricey, medium and cheap, respectively. The outlets are just the lowest tier.

When that outlet jacket says MSRP $99 marked down to $14.99, it's just a sub-par $14.99 jacket to begin with which they slapped a brand name on to snag bargain hunters (who may have no idea what that brand quality usually looks like).


It looks like Oklahoma is about the same as anywhere else in terms of having basically all new made-for-outlet products at Outlet malls. That makes the prospect of an outlet mall even worse in my eyes. Eventually, more people will view outlets as low-quality scams rather than hubs of great deals. Hard to imagine it being much of an emerging market, but I guess they'll try to siphon every penny they can and keep building endless retail so long as those tax perks make it profitable.

Dig far enough back in this 55 page thread and I think that conclusion has been drawn several times.  Not that I'd expect you to go back several hundred comments to find that.   Grin

Does anyone know if there's been movement on the Simon development down in Jenks?  Last I was there in June, I didn't see anything which looked like it was moving forward but that was passing by on the Creek Turnpike.
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« Reply #812 on: October 23, 2018, 04:27:55 pm »

Does anyone know if there's been movement on the Simon development down in Jenks?  Last I was there in June, I didn't see anything which looked like it was moving forward but that was passing by on the Creek Turnpike.

There's a sign visible from the east bound turnpike that stuff will be opening in 2020.
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LeGenDz
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« Reply #813 on: October 23, 2018, 10:14:32 pm »

There's a sign visible from the east bound turnpike that stuff will be opening in 2020 3020.
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patric
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« Reply #814 on: November 16, 2019, 10:13:23 am »

Why didn't you buy it.......

Despite the property’s historical significance, the ranch was never designated a historic site. Being regular private property, there are no requirements for preservation, and the property hosted an auction for the buildings’ contents on Monday.

The property has to sell before bulldozers can turn the ranch into homes, but Tulsa County property records show the land’s sale hasn’t been finalized. Shaw hopes it will one day hold between 109 and 136 new homes.


https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/perryman-ranch-redevelopment-on-hold-until-further-hearings/article_09a41e7e-1a46-58e5-b775-7979641b4a61.html
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buffalodan
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« Reply #815 on: November 16, 2019, 12:52:08 pm »

I'm blown away by the pushback that the sale is getting. That square mile is nothing but tract housing and floodplain. And it has been under develop since before 2000. You had to figure that the entire square mile would eventually get developed, right?
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patric
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« Reply #816 on: April 05, 2020, 04:48:03 pm »


...And the Perryman Ranch is now a pile of rubble.

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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
swake
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« Reply #817 on: April 05, 2020, 06:30:41 pm »

...And the Perryman Ranch is now a pile of rubble.



Sad. A real part of history gone.
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #818 on: March 31, 2021, 10:35:19 pm »

https://ktul.com/news/local/construction-at-tulsa-premium-outlets-further-delayed-by-financial-impacts-of-the-pandemic

This cracks me up... Jenks has spent a ton of TIF money too on this for all the road improvements. Hope they've got some good lawyers.

Simon is just blowing smoke up the city of Jenks' as* too. They just don't want to lose any shoppers from Woodland, they make more money that way and they've effectively killed the other planned outlet centers so win win for them even if they get dragged into court over it. I bet this never gets finished, I've been saying that from the very beginning too. This is their game they play all the time.

This is the reason why it's worth fighting against sh*t development on unique/beautiful sites that have a much better use. All the people who bitched about the city not bowing over and letting Simon do what they wanted sure should be eating some crow right now. Thankfully Turkey Mountain escaped this terrible idea.

I wish someone would buy Promenade and turn it into an outlet center. Way better demographics and surrounding uses. Something like Shops at Park Lane in Dallas.. add some student housing for OU, etc. and it'd be a pretty nice little mixed-use development.

https://goo.gl/maps/7o8SAnZp6Z7TNMK37
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 10:38:12 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
TulsaBeMore
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« Reply #819 on: April 01, 2021, 03:35:38 am »

https://ktul.com/news/local/construction-at-tulsa-premium-outlets-further-delayed-by-financial-impacts-of-the-pandemic

This cracks me up... Jenks has spent a ton of TIF money too on this for all the road improvements. Hope they've got some good lawyers.

Simon is just blowing smoke up the city of Jenks' as* too. They just don't want to lose any shoppers from Woodland, they make more money that way and they've effectively killed the other planned outlet centers so win win for them even if they get dragged into court over it. I bet this never gets finished, I've been saying that from the very beginning too. This is their game they play all the time.

This is the reason why it's worth fighting against sh*t development on unique/beautiful sites that have a much better use. All the people who bitched about the city not bowing over and letting Simon do what they wanted sure should be eating some crow right now. Thankfully Turkey Mountain escaped this terrible idea.

I wish someone would buy Promenade and turn it into an outlet center. Way better demographics and surrounding uses. Something like Shops at Park Lane in Dallas.. add some student housing for OU, etc. and it'd be a pretty nice little mixed-use development.

https://goo.gl/maps/7o8SAnZp6Z7TNMK37


Good idea for the Promenade
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shavethewhales
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« Reply #820 on: April 01, 2021, 08:14:10 am »

I hate Simon with a passion, but this should get back off the ground this year and completed, I would think. Retail is going to bounce back, and people are looking for things to get out and do again. Outlet malls remain popular, for whatever reason, and I think we all know cheap okies would love this one. The one in OKC seems to do OK with minimal effort on their part.

Simon is broke, but this is a good opportunity to gain a property that actually generates revenue.
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Oil Capital
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« Reply #821 on: April 01, 2021, 10:19:25 am »

I hate Simon with a passion, but this should get back off the ground this year and completed, I would think. Retail is going to bounce back, and people are looking for things to get out and do again. Outlet malls remain popular, for whatever reason, and I think we all know cheap okies would love this one. The one in OKC seems to do OK with minimal effort on their part.

Simon is broke, but this is a good opportunity to gain a property that actually generates revenue.

Simon is broke?  Broke companies don't typically have market valuations in the tens of billions of dollars; Simon's is currently about $37 Billion.
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LandArchPoke
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« Reply #822 on: April 01, 2021, 12:50:02 pm »

Simon is broke?  Broke companies don't typically have market valuations in the tens of billions of dollars; Simon's is currently about $37 Billion.

Valuation has nothing to do with whether they are broke, come on now. WeWork had a large valuation at one point too and still went broke.

No clue is Simon is broke but I'm sure they have their hands full with a lot right now with all the retailers they've been buying and others not paying rent. I doubt they're as flush with cash right now as they were two years ago.

I hate Simon with a passion, but this should get back off the ground this year and completed, I would think. Retail is going to bounce back, and people are looking for things to get out and do again. Outlet malls remain popular, for whatever reason, and I think we all know cheap okies would love this one. The one in OKC seems to do OK with minimal effort on their part.

Simon is broke, but this is a good opportunity to gain a property that actually generates revenue.

Why I think it is doubtful this is ever be completed is because Woodland Hills, I believe, has no debt on it and is one of their more profitable assets for this reason. Given there's almost zero competition in the Tulsa market now, outside of Utica - which is very small, they've not had to do massive capital expenditures to keep it competitive and at 'top of market'.

Most of the retail leases are structured in which, the more sales a store has the more money they pay in rent. It's a base rent of $0.00, plus a 0.0% of profits beyond a certain sales amount. It's a common practice in retail, especially in malls or high streets. So completing the outlet mall in Jenks will dilute their sales in Tulsa some... different product type but some people who might have bought a Michael Kors in Woodland might instead go buy a cheaper version at the outlets. Thus, they've diluted their potential revenue by having to operate both centers that have some overlap in customers (not all, but indeed some).

This is why they are so aggressive if another developer proposes a project. They bully tenants into not signing LOI's or leases with other small firms by leveraging their assets in the same or other markets (like if you sign a lease with that other developer in Tulsa we'll raise your base rent at Woodland twice next year kind of thing when your up for renewal - or if they're up in renewal in Dallas, they'll say we'll raise your rent on whatever lease is coming up if you don't play ball with us). It's not legal, but that's how most of the big mall operators do business anymore.

The most profitable option for Simon is to just walk away from that Jenks project now that they've killed all the other outlet proposals. They've put very little money into it so far and if Jenks sues them they can use a force majeure clause, due to COVID, to fight Jenks being able to claw back any of the infrastructure/TIF $ that's been spent. Hopefully Jenks has some good lawyers. I will be shocked if Simon decided to finish, they might, but it's a very slim chance that they do.  

Another thing too - it is most certainly not that there isn't a market for the center, there is in Tulsa. Simon could careless about that, they're more concerned on the profit margins and completing the outlet center will not do that. The only chance I see it happening is if one of the previous developers comes back to the table again and that might force Simon into finishing it - just for them to preserve near complete market control of major regional centers in Tulsa.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 12:53:07 pm by LandArchPoke » Logged
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« Reply #823 on: April 01, 2021, 01:19:50 pm »

Valuation has nothing to do with whether they are broke, come on now. WeWork had a large valuation at one point too and still went broke.


That was fun, but WeWork is not Simon Property Group.  When established companies become or approach "broke" status, they don't typically maintain triple-digit stock prices ($114.20/share currently) and 11-digit market valuations. Valuations do have something to do with their financial health.

More to the point, I can find no evidence anywhere that Simon is broke.  That seems to have been a product of the posters blind hatred.
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Oil Capital
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« Reply #824 on: April 01, 2021, 01:30:05 pm »


Why I think it is doubtful this is ever be completed is because Woodland Hills, I believe, has no debt on it and is one of their more profitable assets for this reason. Given there's almost zero competition in the Tulsa market now, outside of Utica - which is very small, they've not had to do massive capital expenditures to keep it competitive and at 'top of market'.

Most of the retail leases are structured in which, the more sales a store has the more money they pay in rent. It's a base rent of $0.00, plus a 0.0% of profits beyond a certain sales amount. It's a common practice in retail, especially in malls or high streets. So completing the outlet mall in Jenks will dilute their sales in Tulsa some... different product type but some people who might have bought a Michael Kors in Woodland might instead go buy a cheaper version at the outlets. Thus, they've diluted their potential revenue by having to operate both centers that have some overlap in customers (not all, but indeed some).

This is why they are so aggressive if another developer proposes a project. They bully tenants into not signing LOI's or leases with other small firms by leveraging their assets in the same or other markets (like if you sign a lease with that other developer in Tulsa we'll raise your base rent at Woodland twice next year kind of thing when your up for renewal - or if they're up in renewal in Dallas, they'll say we'll raise your rent on whatever lease is coming up if you don't play ball with us). It's not legal, but that's how most of the big mall operators do business anymore.

The most profitable option for Simon is to just walk away from that Jenks project now that they've killed all the other outlet proposals. They've put very little money into it so far and if Jenks sues them they can use a force majeure clause, due to COVID, to fight Jenks being able to claw back any of the infrastructure/TIF $ that's been spent. Hopefully Jenks has some good lawyers. I will be shocked if Simon decided to finish, they might, but it's a very slim chance that they do.  

Another thing too - it is most certainly not that there isn't a market for the center, there is in Tulsa. Simon could careless about that, they're more concerned on the profit margins and completing the outlet center will not do that. The only chance I see it happening is if one of the previous developers comes back to the table again and that might force Simon into finishing it - just for them to preserve near complete market control of major regional centers in Tulsa.

One would think that with a 6 million person market we could support more than one (mediocre) shopping mall.  ;-)
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