Solar and Wind Power Fees for Oklahomans

[heironymouspasparagus]

This is under the assumption that the utility does not have the capacity to serve peak load, and you are about one state too far north of that assumption.


If they then generate twice what they need, and sell it to the utility at 50% off retail (both wildly inaccurate, but easier for math) then they are "saving" the utility $25 but the utility is providing $50 worth of wires service for $10, making a net loss of $15 for the utility.

If, in your mind the customer is getting such a bad deal, then they should unhook from the utility.

PSO has always had way more capacity than local load - probably still does - maybe you can enlighten us?  Back in the 70's when they were trying to shove Black Fox down our throats they were "warning" about how critical it was to build, 'cause we were running out of power - when they were selling over half the power they generated to Texas.  Remind me again how that was in Oklahoma's interest to build more capacity so they could sell it to TX at about a penny per kWH and keep us paying several times that rate??  In a previous life, only a few years ago, I was doing some pretty large scale electrical testing with a monitored usage situation using PSO.  In summer, from around 2 to about 7 pm, the rate was huge - it could cost me $1.25 /kWH while running a 2,000 HP motor - the 4 to 5 pm hour, I think it was.  At night, outside of 'prime time', I could run it for $0.015.... 1 1/2 cents per kWH.  I ran it at night.  (About 1,400 kwh per hour....don't wanna pay a couple grand per hour just to 'watch' a motor turn round and round.)

Wildly inaccurate is the key phrase there in that horrible example - a home generator gets nowhere near 50% of the retail rate.  More like a penny and a half or so.  12%-ish....?

In previous requests to the Corporation Commission for rate increases, it was explained - or maybe mis-explained if this not the way it is - that the base monthly fees were adjusted to take into account the capital expenditures (wires) and another component of cost was for fuel.  So, the customer is actually paying for the wires, even if using half the wire capacity any given month.  Or is PSO gonna start giving a discount for the infrastructure expense not used??      I thought not....

[sgrizzle]

PSO has always had way more capacity than local load - probably still does - maybe you can enlighten us? 

https://www.aep.com/newsroom/newsreleases/?id=1266

In previous requests to the Corporation Commission for rate increases, it was explained - or maybe mis-explained if this not the way it is - that the base monthly fees were adjusted to take into account the capital expenditures (wires) and another component of cost was for fuel.  So, the customer is actually paying for the wires, even if using half the wire capacity any given month.  Or is PSO gonna start giving a discount for the infrastructure expense not used??      I thought not....

Look at your bill. You pay based on usage, just like your water bill. There is no "base monthly fee to cover capital expenditures"

[Conan71]

PSO has always had way more capacity than local load - probably still does - maybe you can enlighten us?  Back in the 70's when they were trying to shove Black Fox down our throats they were "warning" about how critical it was to build, 'cause we were running out of power - when they were selling over half the power they generated to Texas.  Remind me again how that was in Oklahoma's interest to build more capacity so they could sell it to TX at about a penny per kWH and keep us paying several times that rate??  In a previous life, only a few years ago, I was doing some pretty large scale electrical testing with a monitored usage situation using PSO.  In summer, from around 2 to about 7 pm, the rate was huge - it could cost me $1.25 /kWH while running a 2,000 HP motor - the 4 to 5 pm hour, I think it was.  At night, outside of 'prime time', I could run it for $0.015.... 1 1/2 cents per kWH.  I ran it at night.  (About 1,400 kwh per hour....don't wanna pay a couple grand per hour just to 'watch' a motor turn round and round.)

Wildly inaccurate is the key phrase there in that horrible example - a home generator gets nowhere near 50% of the retail rate.  More like a penny and a half or so.  12%-ish....?

In previous requests to the Corporation Commission for rate increases, it was explained - or maybe mis-explained if this not the way it is - that the base monthly fees were adjusted to take into account the capital expenditures (wires) and another component of cost was for fuel.  So, the customer is actually paying for the wires, even if using half the wire capacity any given month.  Or is PSO gonna start giving a discount for the infrastructure expense not used??      I thought not....

2000 HP?  Holy crap! What were you running it for?

[sgrizzle]

2000 HP?  Holy crap! What were you running it for?

Because he could?

[Conan71]

Because he could?

Would not surprise me.

[TeeDub]

See.    Forcing special meters on solar and wind producers paid off.
(sorry Scott, just getting your goat.)


Company increasing 2014 earnings guidance to $3.35 to $3.55 per share, from $3.20 to $3.40 per share

https://www.aep.com/newsroom/newsreleases/Default.aspx?id=1867

[patric]

https://www.aep.com/newsroom/newsreleases/?id=1266

Look at your bill. You pay based on usage, just like your water bill. There is no "base monthly fee to cover capital expenditures"

Maybe not to specifically cover capital expenditures, but there is still the "Base Service Charge" even if you dont use any power.

[heironymouspasparagus]

2000 HP?  Holy crap! What were you running it for?

Yep...because I could.  Pretty cool thing - a lot of fun to "light that up" - even if ya couldn't actually see the motor....  Required a soft start - about 8' high x 15' wide x 4' deep.  The motor is 7.5" in diameter....I'll let that one soak in a while.... some here will know what I'm talking about instantly.





Ya know...there have been times when I wondered if anyone actually read some of my ponderings.  Now I know.

[Conan71]

Yep...because I could.  Pretty cool thing - a lot of fun to "light that up" - even if ya couldn't actually see the motor....  Required a soft start - about 8' high x 15' wide x 4' deep.  The motor is 7.5" in diameter....I'll let that one soak in a while.... some here will know what I'm talking about instantly.

2000 HP motor was 7.5” diameter or the shaft?

[heironymouspasparagus]

2000 HP motor was 7.5” diameter or the shaft?

Motor.  Shaft about 2" or so...can't remember exactly.

[Conan71]

Motor.  Shaft about 2" or so...can't remember exactly.

Pray tell, how do you get 2000 HP out of the windings on a 7 1/2 inch diameter induction motor?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Pray tell, how do you get 2000 HP out of the windings on a 7 1/2 inch diameter induction motor?

Pretty good trick, huh?  I didn't think of it by a long stretch....Armais Arutunoff came up with that in the late 20's.  VERY sharp engineer!  Immigrant from Russia.  Worked with Phillips Petroleum and ended up starting a company called 'Russian Electric Dynamo of Arutunoff'.  Will leave the acronym as an exercise for the observer.   Company still going in Bartlesville.  As well as competitors sprinkled all over Tulsa area....


Finally, the actual answer to your question - you make the windings very, very long.  About 80 feet long.....in a couple of bolt together pieces, so can be shipped on a truck.  Apply 4,160 vac (3 phase), or more, and "watch" it spin.



Next episode - wrap your mind around the extension cord for a motor like that....  Think in terms of kilometers....tens of kilometers....about an inch in diameter for the bundle of wires.

[Conan71]

Pretty good trick, huh?  I didn't think of it by a long stretch....Armais Arutunoff came up with that in the late 20's.  VERY sharp engineer!  Immigrant from Russia.  Worked with Phillips Petroleum and ended up starting a company called 'Russian Electric Dynamo of Arutunoff'.  Will leave the acronym as an exercise for the observer.   Company still going in Bartlesville.  As well as competitors sprinkled all over Tulsa area....


Finally, the actual answer to your question - you make the windings very, very long.  About 80 feet long.....in a couple of bolt together pieces, so can be shipped on a truck.  Apply 4,160 vac (3 phase), or more, and "watch" it spin.



Next episode - wrap your mind around the extension cord for a motor like that....  Think in terms of kilometers....tens of kilometers....about an inch in diameter for the bundle of wires.

Quite familiar with REDA pump and the Arutunoffs.  All you had to say was “ESP”.  Quite a toy you had there, Heir.

[nathanm]

Next episode - wrap your mind around the extension cord for a motor like that....  Think in terms of kilometers....tens of kilometers....about an inch in diameter for the bundle of wires.

The capacitance, it's killing me!

But yes, thank you for providing an example of something that, if powered in part by your neighbor's solar panels or wind turbine, would save PSO money on otherwise necessary infrastructure improvements and a fairly significant amount of avoided loss from resistance. Over a third of all the power generated in this country is turned into waste heat in the wires, transformers, and other equipment before reaching the customer. That figure is reduced by quite a bit in places with significant distributed generation, since the power is being generated much closer to its point of use.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The capacitance, it's killing me!

But yes, thank you for providing an example of something that, if powered in part by your neighbor's solar panels or wind turbine, would save PSO money on otherwise necessary infrastructure improvements and a fairly significant amount of avoided loss from resistance. Over a third of all the power generated in this country is turned into waste heat in the wires, transformers, and other equipment before reaching the customer. That figure is reduced by quite a bit in places with significant distributed generation, since the power is being generated much closer to its point of use.

60 km of extension cord gives you a very hot wire (put it on the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico to cool it off) that has massive voltage drop - ya start out with over 8,000 vac to get to a 4,160 vac supply to the motor. 


As to the transmission losses you mention - yes.  Huge!  If another set of wires the same size was added to every transmission line in the country we would not need any more new power plants for a long time (15% losses).  If double again, then 7% losses, and so on.  The problem is the cost of that wiring - even using aluminum, it is more cost effective to just build another power plant.  Amazing isn't it?

Literally - we are getting 7 units of power for every 10 units of input we use up to get that power - doesn't matter if it is gas, coal, or nuke.  3 parts added to 7 is a 50% increase in required generation plant plus the cost of those fuels just so we can throw it away!  Because we make it cheaper to do that.  Clever aren't we?

All of business is how you incentivize people and their actions.  For example, if you want to push the issue of efficient use of the energy we already make, give a tax break to putting in more wire.  And a big tax hit for building a power plant instead of wires.  This ain't rocket science - it is VERY basic Business 101.  Make it cheaper to do one than the other.  Voila - instant 30% reduction in greenhouse gases or mercury, or arsenic put into the air - any bad thing that comes out of any power plant - reduced.


CEO pay...well, if you want to get some sanity back in the world, just take the company tax deduction away for these ridiculous long term gains events.  Simple.  Easy.  Can never happen.