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November 13, 2018, 01:46:48 am
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Author Topic: They are ABLE!  (Read 20959 times)
AquaMan
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« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2014, 02:27:07 pm »

Some people are intoxicated with very little to drink. People who have low weight or low tolerance. They just loosen up then get loud and friendly pretty fast. Others, who have built up a higher tolerance due to a lifetime of alcohol consumption, can drink all night and fool even the best bartenders. The bartenders all know the law and how much someone has been drinking at their bar. They know when to say no more. But the ones that have high tolerance or who drank somewhere else previously, not so much.

Smoot made it clear that someone who is "causing a problem" and is drinking in a bar can be arrested for public intox. No breathalyzer, no testing, just the officers opinion. In a time of increasing intolerance for nonconformity, that is a fine line imo and one that concerns me.

Perhaps the answer is to only allow ABLE employees and LEO's to become bartenders.

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Conan71
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« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2014, 02:44:41 pm »

If someone is intoxicated, though it likely reflects bad judgement on their part that they got to that point, it would seem even worse a wrong if the person who is supposed to be responsible, the server, then gives a person that they can see is intoxicated, and who very likely now does have impaired judgment, even more alcohol (drinking to the point of intoxication is very bad for a persons health and to turn a blind eye to that and enable the person to even further harm themselves, when their judgment is also impaired)… would at least seem wrong and immoral.  Whether it should be against the law depends on your perspective on whether such "wrong" things should be made against the law.

I completely agree for a bartender to keep cramming alcohol down someone who is obviously plastered is wrong.  The drunk driver that killed my brother was aided to their vehicle by the bar manager because they were so unsteady on their feet.  Four people died as a result and it was a completely preventable wreck if A) The bartender had cut off the person and B) Called a cab rather than assisting the person to their car.

However, if I understand the way the law is written, someone could appear and act completely normal, but an ABLE agent could say a bartender continued serving someone beyond the point of intoxication if their BAC were over .08 whether or not the person exhibited any overt signs of intoxication.  Simply the way it is written, every bartender in the state has committed a felony at one time or another.
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rdj
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« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2014, 04:30:23 pm »

I completely agree for a bartender to keep cramming alcohol down someone who is obviously plastered is wrong.  The drunk driver that killed my brother was aided to their vehicle by the bar manager because they were so unsteady on their feet.  Four people died as a result and it was a completely preventable wreck if A) The bartender had cut off the person and B) Called a cab rather than assisting the person to their car.

However, if I understand the way the law is written, someone could appear and act completely normal, but an ABLE agent could say a bartender continued serving someone beyond the point of intoxication if their BAC were over .08 whether or not the person exhibited any overt signs of intoxication.  Simply the way it is written, every bartender in the state has committed a felony at one time or another.

Sorry to pry, and feel free to decline to answer.  Did the DA &/or court file charges/sue the bartender?
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patric
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« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2014, 06:42:51 pm »

Smoot made it clear that someone who is "causing a problem" and is drinking in a bar can be arrested for public intox. No breathalyzer, no testing, just the officers opinion. In a time of increasing intolerance for nonconformity, that is a fine line imo and one that concerns me.

"Causing a problem" like grey-haired old men asking why they have to "volunteer" their DL to prove they are over 21?
Seen that many times.
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Conan71
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« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2014, 11:04:48 pm »

Sorry to pry, and feel free to decline to answer.  Did the DA &/or court file charges/sue the bartender?

Let's put it this way, it never would have made it as far as a courtroom.  It was a classic DRAM shop case, AKA, an attorney's wet dream.  Attorney sent a letter and copy of the police report with the bartender/manager's statement that night and the insurance company for the bar couldn't settle fast enough to full policy limits- which isn't as much as most would think.

I was truly stunned when I read how candid the bartender was.  I remember thinking: "Okay, you over-served these people (five pitchers of draft beer in 2 hours for two people), they got loud and rowdy, so your logical solution was to assist them to their car because they were so unsteady on their feet??"  I wonder if that bartender has ever had two thoughts about all the lives irrevocably changed that night?  I want to say the drunk driver of the other vehicle was 23 at the time, she was with her uncle what a sad deal for her family and so much unrealized potential.  I harbor no ill will...every family lost  someone important to them.

My brother was single so no real financial consequences to my mother nor myself, however, the driver of the car he was in had a wife as well as at least one kid still in college. IIRC, there was never a suit even filed and OSCN seems to bear out that recollection.  No one got wealthy but it helped take care of people who needed to be taken care of.

There never were any criminal charges filed, and no one from the Payne County DA's office ever contacted us about it.  T he bar continued to operate for many more years afterwards- at least ten or so.  I drove past a few months back and it's now "The XXXXX II" so must have bankrupted for other reasons at some point in the last few years or when someone bought it from the previous owners they wanted to distance themselves slightly from the previous ownership without losing the name.
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patric
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« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2014, 05:50:58 pm »

Let's put it this way, it never would have made it as far as a courtroom.  It was a classic DRAM shop case, AKA, an attorney's wet dream.  Attorney sent a letter and copy of the police report with the bartender/manager's statement that night and the insurance company for the bar couldn't settle fast enough to full policy limits- which isn't as much as most would think.

Last September, a LifeFlight pilot was killed walking home from Brookside.  Now two bartenders are charged with serving him alcohol.

http://www.newson6.com/story/24584500/tulsa-man-hit-by-two-cars-bartenders-charged-with-over-serving

One assumes the argument will be made that, when the pilot neglected his duty to govern himself, the bartenders neglected to pick up where he left off and assume responsibility for him.
So why stop there?  If ABLE is supposed to be responsible for bars and bartenders, why not argue that they also were negligent?

Its the same train of thought (albeit a straw one), and it wouldnt be the first time a bartender was fooled by someone with cred. 
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Conan71
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« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2014, 07:43:14 pm »

Yep they had ol' crazy eyes on the news last night.  He was so amped up I thought he was going to smoot himself.
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2014, 09:08:20 pm »

One assumes the argument will be made that, when the pilot neglected his duty to govern himself, the bartenders neglected to pick up where he left off and assume responsibility for him.
So why stop there?  If ABLE is supposed to be responsible for bars and bartenders, why not argue that they also were negligent?

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Hoss
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« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2014, 09:12:20 pm »

Yep they had ol' crazy eyes on the news last night.  He was so amped up I thought he was going to smoot himself.

He kinda looked like he needed a bib.
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Conan71
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« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2014, 09:05:10 am »

He kinda looked like he needed a bib.

Good one!

He was slathering quite a bit wasn’t he?

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rdj
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« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2014, 09:30:17 am »

I liked that he was wearing his "badge" around his neck. 

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DolfanBob
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« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2014, 09:53:13 am »

Gives a whole new horrible twist on the annual "Pub Crawl"

His head looks like it's gotten bigger. Must be full of "Smoot"
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Cats Cats Cats
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« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2014, 10:01:53 am »

A 6 pack of miller lite and 3 "alcoholic" drinks and he couldn't even walk? Sounds like he pre-gamed.
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TheArtist
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« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2014, 10:25:36 am »

Food kills more people in Oklahoma than "drink", by almost 8 times. (food addictions, obesity, diabetes resulting in blindness, limb loss, etc. it destroys families, costs all of us a lot of money, lost productivity, medical bills, insurance, etc.) I think we need to ban food sales on Sundays and hold food servers responsible for people who over eat or who do not eat a healthy diet. OR, perhaps we work to create a culture in which people both do not over eat or over drink, one in which we all know how much is "too much". A serving or two of alcohol can be part of a healthy diet. But more than 3, for just about anyone of any size or gender is too much, hurts your health and is wrong. 6 servings qualifies as binge drinking which is undeniably very bad for a persons health, this guy had NINE! We need to create that attitude in our society and have that personal and social responsibility brought back and taught. It starts with you and me just saying something. "Hey buddy, you have had enough to drink, any more and you will hurt your health. I am your friend and I care about you."
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Conan71
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« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2014, 10:42:00 am »

A 6 pack of miller lite and 3 "alcoholic" drinks and he couldn't even walk? Sounds like he pre-gamed.

Nah, just an amateur.
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
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