Tulsa Public Schools Spending

[swake]

We had a security guard back in the 80s at Booker T Washington. I wasn't a smoker but I always heard he was the guy to get good weed from.

A bit different from my daughter's experience at Jenks a few years ago when campus police beat a deaf student in front of her because he wasn't following orders that he couldn't hear.

[AquaMan]

The security patrol designated for TPS is pretty helpful and more or less trained for dealing with minors in a school situation. When a school bus driver has a behavioral problem the dispatcher can quickly arrange for security to meet at a designated spot or the school. I suspect that would be a much lower priority and a longer wait for regular TPD patrolmen. The high schools pared away a lot of the door security they used to have who also helped patrol the parking lots where parents clog up the pickup and delivery areas because they aren't aware of anyone else's needs but their own. Most high school teachers and principals do now want to do the work those security guards did, like breaking up fights, running off dealers from the school grounds or dealing with unreasonable parents.

I am curious as to the specific amount Conan mentioned, $12mm, and exactly how that is apparent to him but not the school board?

[cannon_fodder]

I can't  speak for the specific need, the cost, or if there is savings to be had... I'm no expert, just thinking on my keyboard. But I could see how having a school police division or at least officers within TPD specifically trained for and familiar with the schools and school kids could really help.  Either through fear of being caught because police are always around or from respect for the officer because they know him - it could prevent some incidents.  And when something does happen, having someone the kids know could help defuse the situation and/or keep others safe.  And if that doesn't work and the officer needs to get seriously involved, I could see specific training and experience with school kids could be really helpful.

Just having the same police there over and over and being familiar with what should be going on at a school and who should be there could be very helpful.

If this could be accomplished other ways and money could be saved, all the better.  But I could see it being useful.

Then again... here's a list of the law enforcement agencies that I think have jurisdiction within Tulsa City limits, that I could think of:

Tulsa Police
Tulsa Sheriff
Tulsa Public School Police
OU Police
OSU Police
TU Campus Security
Oklahoma State Troopers
OSBI
TSA
FBI
US Marshall's
ICE
Creek Nation Light Horse Police
Osage Police
Cherokee Nation Marshall's
Secret Service
DEA
ATF
Game Wardens for various agencies
Military Police and a slew of less likely to be involved Federal police (various other military police/inspectors, Postal Police, Custom and Border Protection, BIA, BLM, NPS, BOP, DOJ OIG, etc. etc. etc.)
Did the Oklahoma insurance commissioner get armed police or not?

and that's not counting Skiatook, Owasso, Glennpool, BA, Sapulpa, Sand Springs, Catoosa, Claremore, Jenks, Mounds, Liberty, Coweta, Verdigris, Sperry, or a slew of other towns or other counties around Tulsa who have their own law enforcement officials and whose officers may from time to time have to exercise jurisdiction in Tulsa.

So maybe we could consolidate some.   

[Conan71]

I am curious as to the specific amount Conan mentioned, $12mm, and exactly how that is apparent to him but not the school board?

$12 mil is the currently stated budget shortfall for TPS.  I was simply musing that there has got to be $12mm which could be found via cuts in administration or operations without affecting the educational experience nor extracurricular activities.

This is the problem when you ask department heads, whether it's a public entity or corporation, to find ways to cut their budgets via lay-offs and cutting expenditures.  No one wants to work any harder or take on tasks so it is claimed that all personnel in the department are essential even though it is entirely possible for fewer employees to take on more responsibility. 

I have sold and serviced government accounts for the better part of 25 years.  I cannot even count how many times I've been called out for a site visit near the end of a fiscal year so that a department could spend the rest of their budget dollars for that year because if they don't spend them they will be cut from next year's budget.  Never mind that what they spent the money on was for equipment they really did not need for another ten years or consumables they will stockpile for two or three years.

If you ask the Superintendent of Cashion or Goodwell Schools (I'm arbitrarily throwing those out there) if they could consolidate with other school systems, you will get a flat "no".  Every superintendent is going to protect their little fiefdom and their $150K salary and their friends who work in the school system.  Ask legislators about forcing consolidation in their own districts and it won't happen.  They don't want to lose their position of power by cutting jobs or expenditures in their districts. 

Probably the best answer to help larger districts who are getting cuts at the state level would be to consolidate the operations of smaller districts to make up for those shortfalls.  I know it's not popular in rural areas but in this day and age of car-centric middle America I really don't see where the hardship comes from.  The operation of a few more buses in rural areas is a lot less expensive than operating an entire school district for 200 or 300 students.

[swake]

$12 mil is the currently stated budget shortfall for TPS.  I was simply musing that there has got to be $12mm which could be found via cuts in administration or operations without affecting the educational experience nor extracurricular activities.

This is the problem when you ask department heads, whether it's a public entity or corporation, to find ways to cut their budgets via lay-offs and cutting expenditures.  No one wants to work any harder or take on tasks so it is claimed that all personnel in the department are essential even though it is entirely possible for fewer employees to take on more responsibility. 

I have sold and serviced government accounts for the better part of 25 years.  I cannot even count how many times I've been called out for a site visit near the end of a fiscal year so that a department could spend the rest of their budget dollars for that year because if they don't spend them they will be cut from next year's budget.  Never mind that what they spent the money on was for equipment they really did not need for another ten years or consumables they will stockpile for two or three years.

If you ask the Superintendent of Cashion or Goodwell Schools (I'm arbitrarily throwing those out there) if they could consolidate with other school systems, you will get a flat "no".  Every superintendent is going to protect their little fiefdom and their $150K salary and their friends who work in the school system.  Ask legislators about forcing consolidation in their own districts and it won't happen.  They don't want to lose their position of power by cutting jobs or expenditures in their districts. 

Probably the best answer to help larger districts who are getting cuts at the state level would be to consolidate the operations of smaller districts to make up for those shortfalls.  I know it's not popular in rural areas but in this day and age of car-centric middle America I really don't see where the hardship comes from.  The operation of a few more buses in rural areas is a lot less expensive than operating an entire school district for 200 or 300 students.

County wide school districts with the opportunity for larger cites to have their own independent districts. We have 77 counties so probably 75 county districts and 50-60 city or area districts. No schools need to close, just reshuffle management and administration.

[Conan71]

County wide school districts with the opportunity for larger cites to have their own independent districts. We have 77 counties so probably 75 county districts and 50-60 city or area districts. No schools need to close, just reshuffle management and administration.

Great idea.

What was it we figured out before on the number of school districts in Oklahoma?  550+ wasn't it?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Great idea.

What was it we figured out before on the number of school districts in Oklahoma?  550+ wasn't it?

520

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_districts_in_Oklahoma


Consolidation has been going on for decades - many schools systems have combined in that time.  One I travel through quite a bit is the Oologah/Talala combined district.  Have relatives who work in Bartlesville, Vinita, and Miama area schools - some of which have had combining over the years.  Not sure about B'ville directly, but something has gone on in that area.  Erfalf, do you have any info about what is going on?   Maybe Dewey, Copan areas??  Dewey would be perfect candidate to combine with B'ville.  Is Caney Valley Public schools a combo in the Ramona/Vera/Ochelata area?

Oklahoma Union is a combo of many little schools up near KS border.

A lot has been done.  More should be done.

Commentary;

http://oklahomawatch.org/2014/06/28/is-oklahoma-spending-too-much-on-school-administration/

[patric]

Not sure of your age but since I was in middle school we had security guards patrolling the campus. We definitely had them in high school. The installed a metal detector at the entrance one year but that only lasted for about a year and then it was disabled.

Same here.  There was always some sort of School Security. Schools never went "unprotected" the way the fear-mongering goes.
We also forget TPS police was formed because administrators were frustrated with media attention to school crime they would hear over police radio.

[erfalf]

I haven't heard anything about Bartlesville absorbing anything in the immediate area, but in fairness, I would probably only find out once it was in the paper, unless it directly effected my kid's elementary school (which it wouldn't). Dewey is a decent sized district on it's own. In Bartlesville the high schools combined in 82, but I believe it was all within the district. Caney Valley to the south is the next closest district, and as I mentioned I really haven't heard anything. Not arguing that Dewey would not be a good fit, just that as you all know, political will is a tough nut to crack. And Dewey ain't exactly struggling, like maybe Caney or Copan.

For comparison, the ADM's for the schools in Washington County alone for 2016 are below:

Bartlesville - 6,097.83
Dewey - 1,264.33
Caney Valley - 789.49
Copan - 244.14

Combining all 4 would result in a district still smaller than Owasso is as it is currently configured, but considerably larger than Bixby.

My home town has a combined district. Deer Creek-Lamont combined in the 70's. The facility in Deer Creek serves as the elementary school while the one in Lamont as the middle/high school. No schools technically closed in the combination and it is unlikely direct employees got reduced all that much as I believe classes were combined pre-consolidation (think 1st & 2nd grade in the same room/same teacher), whereas now they are not. Obviously administration was reduced.

And in regards to busing in the above school, bus routes went out in to the country as they always did, then the last two buses are from site to site hauling Lamont elementary students to Deer Creek and vice versa for MS/HS kids residing in Deer Creek. Not really that big of a deal really.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Oklahoma Union and Oologah got their respective combinations quite a while ago. 

The northeast OK combos were done long ago, too.  Two of these resulted in fewer admin type positions after the changes were made - had an uncle who was principal in one of them and became principal of the combination.  Second one moved on.  Lots of other staff lost too.

[AquaMan]

The idea of consolidating has been around for a long time and has faced severe opposition from the counties who would tend to lose a lot of funding. I would guess those district employees live like kings in their sparsely populated areas. It doesn't help the current large school districts with their shortfalls that are likely 2-3 years even if they did something now. And they aren't doing anything, now.

But, we are assuming that the state is kicking in the requisite amounts per student necessary to accomplish their demands. I don't see any record of that. In fact we rank last or near last in funding nationwide.

Conan, the budget thing is a problem. I liked what Boren did when he was governor. Each year departments had to start at zero and justify their proposed budgets. I wonder what happened to that practice?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Conan, the budget thing is a problem. I liked what Boren did when he was governor. Each year departments had to start at zero and justify their proposed budgets. I wonder what happened to that practice?

It got "Republican-ized".  By the Hijacked Republican Party.

[Conan71]

520

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_districts_in_Oklahoma


Consolidation has been going on for decades - many schools systems have combined in that time.  One I travel through quite a bit is the Oologah/Talala combined district.  Have relatives who work in Bartlesville, Vinita, and Miama area schools - some of which have had combining over the years.  Not sure about B'ville directly, but something has gone on in that area.  Erfalf, do you have any info about what is going on?   Maybe Dewey, Copan areas??  Dewey would be perfect candidate to combine with B'ville.  Is Caney Valley Public schools a combo in the Ramona/Vera/Ochelata area?

Oklahoma Union is a combo of many little schools up near KS border.

A lot has been done.  More should be done.

Commentary;

http://oklahomawatch.org/2014/06/28/is-oklahoma-spending-too-much-on-school-administration/

520 districts for a 77 county state is beyond ridiculous.

[Conan71]

The idea of consolidating has been around for a long time and has faced severe opposition from the counties who would tend to lose a lot of funding. I would guess those district employees live like kings in their sparsely populated areas. It doesn't help the current large school districts with their shortfalls that are likely 2-3 years even if they did something now. And they aren't doing anything, now.

But, we are assuming that the state is kicking in the requisite amounts per student necessary to accomplish their demands. I don't see any record of that. In fact we rank last or near last in funding nationwide.

Conan, the budget thing is a problem. I liked what Boren did when he was governor. Each year departments had to start at zero and justify their proposed budgets. I wonder what happened to that practice?

I'm too young to remember much about Boren's tenure as governor.  He'd already gone on to the U.S. Senate by the time I was eligible to vote and knew/cared about fiscal issues.  And yes, I did vote for him when he was in the Senate.  At that time in his career, he'd be a Republican by any measure. 

[swake]

I haven't heard anything about Bartlesville absorbing anything in the immediate area, but in fairness, I would probably only find out once it was in the paper, unless it directly effected my kid's elementary school (which it wouldn't). Dewey is a decent sized district on it's own. In Bartlesville the high schools combined in 82, but I believe it was all within the district. Caney Valley to the south is the next closest district, and as I mentioned I really haven't heard anything. Not arguing that Dewey would not be a good fit, just that as you all know, political will is a tough nut to crack. And Dewey ain't exactly struggling, like maybe Caney or Copan.

For comparison, the ADM's for the schools in Washington County alone for 2016 are below:

Bartlesville - 6,097.83
Dewey - 1,264.33
Caney Valley - 789.49
Copan - 244.14

Combining all 4 would result in a district still smaller than Owasso is as it is currently configured, but considerably larger than Bixby.

My home town has a combined district. Deer Creek-Lamont combined in the 70's. The facility in Deer Creek serves as the elementary school while the one in Lamont as the middle/high school. No schools technically closed in the combination and it is unlikely direct employees got reduced all that much as I believe classes were combined pre-consolidation (think 1st & 2nd grade in the same room/same teacher), whereas now they are not. Obviously administration was reduced.

And in regards to busing in the above school, bus routes went out in to the country as they always did, then the last two buses are from site to site hauling Lamont elementary students to Deer Creek and vice versa for MS/HS kids residing in Deer Creek. Not really that big of a deal really.

So for my proposal in Washington County I would say two districts. One for Bartlesville, especially since part of the city is in Osage County and another district for all the other schools in the county.

Osage County would have one district but would lose some carve outs from city districts from Sand Springs, Skiatook and Bartlesville.