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Author Topic: Broken Arrow Casino -  (Read 162290 times)
DolfanBob
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« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2012, 02:18:00 pm »

Wow ! I feel so white. I thought I was all alone thinking like this.  Grin
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« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2012, 02:30:07 pm »

Racism may be human nature. Human nature is one thing. Codifying human nature is another. Surely you wouldn't be in favor of American Irish discriminating against someone of English heritage. I am proud of all of my ancestry but I enjoy the histories of the Welsh and Irish most. The fact that the Irish easily mixed with the American Indian is not too surprising to me. Truth is, most races have blended to the extent that it is ludicrous to see some guy with less Indian heritage than I have discriminating against me because my Great Grandmother didn't sign the white man's Indian rolls. We seem to be devolving if that is accepted as "payback".

They use this as a weapon and it is damaging to them in many ways. One of them is their dependence upon birthright mineral rights that are passed on to each generation giving them a welfare mentality. Doesn't work well for white trust fund babies either. Another is the spiritual degradation that gambling infects them with.

A weapon? Infects "them". You racist jackass.


Is it racist when you hire your son to work in your own business? How about when you hire someone from your college, or your frat? Do you ever “Buy American”? It’s not that different. The tribes are collective groups working to protect a culture and people from disappearing. Hiring their own first in their businesses and government is part of that. Natives are the poorest demographic group in this country, many natives to this day struggle badly to assimilate. Many don’t want to. A tribal citizen getting preference in jobs with their own tribe is an effort to preserve cultures that the United States largely destroyed.

One of my wife’s tribes, Yuchi, doesn’t even exist according to the federal government. This was a proud tribe that at one time had many thousands of people in towns spread across the south. The remaining people of the tribe work hard to keep their culture alive but it is very hard with little support. The feds say they are just part of the Muscogee Creek Nation, but they are a very different people from the Creeks with different traditions and dress. The language is what is called an “isolate”, meaning that it is not related to any other language in the world and is nothing at all like the Muscogee language. There are only seven fluent speakers left. Seven.

There’s a lot of crappy paternalistic and condescending attitudes on here about what happened, what is happening, to Natives in this country. You can’t tell me that the protests in Broken Arrow aren’t a lot about race. My daughter has had very hateful things said to her at Jenks about being Indian, my wife has been discriminated against at work. This isn’t some chapter in a book about the William the conqueror overrunning the Anglo-Saxons in 1066. My ancestors were there and it means nothing to me. But my daughter last year was proud to be the first Yuchi tribal princess and she is trying to learn the language. My kids spend every summer dancing and learning the traditions of their people. That’s real. This is happening to real people today, to my family. You can act like what the US did was well intentioned and just had to happen as part of the growth of the nation, but it wasn’t well intentioned and it’s still happening now. Your sadly pretty common attitude proves there is still a long way to go.
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Conan71
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« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2012, 02:46:47 pm »

Swake,  I was never aware of discrimination toward my step brothers or step father related to their Indian heritage during the seven years we lived in the same house.  I never heard anyone make fun of them at school, and my step father got regular promotions in the Williams Companies until he left to form his own exploration company.  His Indian heritage gave him certain advantages in starting up that business.  He did relate growing up in Wetumka in the 1930's and 1940's that he would get the occasional "blanketass" or "redskin" epithet from white kids in town.  

I do believe there's somewhat of a backlash we are seeing now as blacks can use overtly racist language yet we are told that's appropriate because we kept them as slaves up until 150 some years ago.  Native Americans can employ openly discriminatory hiring practices because they were booted out of their ancestral lands 170 some years ago.  An employer can discriminate against a white, straight, male in a hiring decision in favor of someone else the government says is more "entitled" to a job due to their race, ethnicity, or gender.

I don't think it's racism you are seeing.  It's growing resentment that every single fragment of society seems to want special recognition these days instead of simply recognizing we are all part of the same human race to begin with.  
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custosnox
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« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2012, 02:55:18 pm »

A weapon? Infects "them". You racist jackass.


Is it racist when you hire your son to work in your own business? How about when you hire someone from your college, or your frat? Do you ever “Buy American”? It’s not that different. The tribes are collective groups working to protect a culture and people from disappearing. Hiring their own first in their businesses and government is part of that. Natives are the poorest demographic group in this country, many natives to this day struggle badly to assimilate. Many don’t want to. A tribal citizen getting preference in jobs with their own tribe is an effort to preserve cultures that the United States largely destroyed.

One of my wife’s tribes, Yuchi, doesn’t even exist according to the federal government. This was a proud tribe that at one time had many thousands of people in towns spread across the south. The remaining people of the tribe work hard to keep their culture alive but it is very hard with little support. The feds say they are just part of the Muscogee Creek Nation, but they are a very different people from the Creeks with different traditions and dress. The language is what is called an “isolate”, meaning that it is not related to any other language in the world and is nothing at all like the Muscogee language. There are only seven fluent speakers left. Seven.

There’s a lot of crappy paternalistic and condescending attitudes on here about what happened, what is happening, to Natives in this country. You can’t tell me that the protests in Broken Arrow aren’t a lot about race. My daughter has had very hateful things said to her at Jenks about being Indian, my wife has been discriminated against at work. This isn’t some chapter in a book about the William the conqueror overrunning the Anglo-Saxons in 1066. My ancestors were there and it means nothing to me. But my daughter last year was proud to be the first Yuchi tribal princess and she is trying to learn the language. My kids spend every summer dancing and learning the traditions of their people. That’s real. This is happening to real people today, to my family. You can act like what the US did was well intentioned and just had to happen as part of the growth of the nation, but it wasn’t well intentioned and it’s still happening now. Your sadly pretty common attitude proves there is still a long way to go.

And by your same reasoning the job your wife works at isn't practicing racism, it's a matter of them hiring their own, and treating their own better.  And as far as your daughter goes, she is the minority, it sucks, racism happens, it doesn't excuse it anywhere else, and I can say this because my kids go to schools in which they are the minority, and racism runs rampant against them, it sucks, but it doesn't justify racism elsewhere.  Nor is it an excuse to get special treatment.  

And as far as the William the conqueror part, my ancestors weren't just there, I am his direct decedent, and it has just as much meaning to me as anything that has happened outside of my lifetime.  Yes, it was a long time ago, but then, so was the taking of the lands, the fighting against the natives and so forth.  Now it's just a petty excuse from either side to do this or that.  Just because something happened at some point in time in history does not justify actions today.  Racism is racism, it doesn't matter if you want to call it preserving your heritage or what, it is there.  Saying your hiring someone you don't know because of their pedigree is the same as saying your hiring them because of the color of their skin or where they are born.

And this sounds callous, but if the culture of your wife's tribe is not important enough to more than a handful of those who come from it to attempt to preserve it, why should it be important to those who have no connection to it?  Why should you get to beat us over the head with it?
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swake
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« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2012, 03:03:19 pm »

Swake,  I was never aware of discrimination toward my step brothers or step father related to their Indian heritage during the seven years we lived in the same house.  I never heard anyone make fun of them at school, and my step father got regular promotions in the Williams Companies until he left to form his own exploration company.  His Indian heritage gave him certain advantages in starting up that business.  He did relate growing up in Wetumka in the 1930's and 1940's that he would get the occasional "blanketass" or "redskin" epithet from white kids in town.  

I do believe there's somewhat of a backlash we are seeing now as blacks can use overtly racist language yet we are told that's appropriate because we kept them as slaves up until 150 some years ago.  Native Americans can employ openly discriminatory hiring practices because they were booted out of their ancestral lands 170 some years ago.  An employer can discriminate against a white, straight, male in a hiring decision in favor of someone else the government says is more "entitled" to a job due to their race, ethnicity, or gender.

I don't think it's racism you are seeing.  It's growing resentment that every single fragment of society seems to want special recognition these days instead of simply recognizing we are all part of the same human race to begin with.  


My wife has never been discriminated against here, that was in Norman when we were first married. She was shocked. It was a small good ol boy company that actually died not long after. As for my daughter, middle school kids are just plain terrible people, any difference is picked upon. Race is a very common place for kids to attack. It gotten better as she has gotten older, but it still happens. Stereotype images and condescending attitudes like Waterboy's are common however.

Tell me, did it help you to grow up upper middle class with a good education when you went to go and look for work? Exactly how is that kind of birthright ok but a Cherokee kid getting hired first to clean toilets at a casino owned by his own people evil?

What about cities that give preference to their own residents when hiring cops?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 03:05:52 pm by swake » Logged
Conan71
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« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2012, 03:17:14 pm »


Tell me, did it help you to grow up upper middle class with a good education when you went to go and look for work? Exactly how is that kind of birthright ok but a Cherokee kid getting hired first to clean toilets at a casino owned by his own people evil?

What about cities that give preference to their own residents when hiring cops?

With all due respect you are getting into an apple v. orange area here.

A good education or commensurate experience is a perfectly acceptable employment prerequisite.  Finding someone who can competently do a job due to their education or prior experience is very important in many occupations and is not discriminatory.  You certainly wouldn't say it was discriminatory if someone without a medical degree can't perform heart surgery.  Requiring employees of a municipality live in that municipality is not racism nor ethnism.  

In my job world, we have to have ASME code-certified welders, that's not discriminating against those who don't have that level of certification, they simply are not qualified for the sort of work we do.  Now if I published that we give first preference to white people, we'd be locked down in a heartbeat.

I appreciate that the tribes have found a way to provide good jobs to people who might otherwise be on the government dole in one form or another.  There's also been improved health care facilities and even industries unrelated to gambling which have been the result of smart re-investing.

I can simply see where hiring practices of tribes is ripe for criticism.  It's a system which openly discriminates against non-Indians.  That's a racial or ethnic bias, pure and simple.  I understand why they do it, but it doesn't erase the valid point that it's a very real form of discrimination which would never fly under U.S. employment law, but tribes are sovereign nations, so they don't have to observe EOE or AA.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 03:19:39 pm by Conan71 » Logged

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swake
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« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2012, 03:18:57 pm »

And by your same reasoning the job your wife works at isn't practicing racism, it's a matter of them hiring their own, and treating their own better.  

My wife does not and never has worked for any tribal entity and has never gotten a job because of her race. You are making assumptions. 

And this sounds callous, but if the culture of your wife's tribe is not important enough to more than a handful of those who come from it to attempt to preserve it, why should it be important to those who have no connection to it?  Why should you get to beat us over the head with it?

Beat you over the head with it? What in the hell are you talking about? You've never even heard of them before.
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custosnox
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« Reply #82 on: January 05, 2012, 03:31:56 pm »

My wife does not and never has worked for any tribal entity and has never gotten a job because of her race. You are making assumptions. 
no, but you say that she was discrimiated against for being Indian, that is the point I am making, that those employers, by your reasoning, are not practicing racism, only their own right to hire their own and treat them better.

Quote
Beat you over the head with it? What in the hell are you talking about? You've never even heard of them before.

Your making your argument based on how the tribe is disappearing and it comes out as if they are owed something because of that.  Granted, that isn't exactly beating us over the head with it, best term I could come up with for the argument.  Your are trying to use this in an argument about hiring practices, like that makes it okay to be racist.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #83 on: January 05, 2012, 05:02:10 pm »

Swake,  I was never aware of discrimination toward my step brothers or step father related to their Indian heritage during the seven years we lived in the same house.  I never heard anyone make fun of them at school, and my step father got regular promotions in the Williams Companies until he left to form his own exploration company.  His Indian heritage gave him certain advantages in starting up that business.  He did relate growing up in Wetumka in the 1930's and 1940's that he would get the occasional "blanketass" or "redskin" epithet from white kids in town.  


And '50s and '60s, and even very early '70's right here in Tulsey-town.  Hale, Central (go figure), and Edison High Schools.
Now it seems like it is almost "cool" to be Indian - or at least part - things change.



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AquaMan
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« Reply #84 on: January 05, 2012, 06:24:27 pm »

A weapon? Infects "them". You racist jackass.


Is it racist when you hire your son to work in your own business? How about when you hire someone from your college, or your frat? Do you ever “Buy American”? It’s not that different. The tribes are collective groups working to protect a culture and people from disappearing. Hiring their own first in their businesses and government is part of that. Natives are the poorest demographic group in this country, many natives to this day struggle badly to assimilate. Many don’t want to. A tribal citizen getting preference in jobs with their own tribe is an effort to preserve cultures that the United States largely destroyed.

One of my wife’s tribes, Yuchi, doesn’t even exist according to the federal government. This was a proud tribe that at one time had many thousands of people in towns spread across the south. The remaining people of the tribe work hard to keep their culture alive but it is very hard with little support. The feds say they are just part of the Muscogee Creek Nation, but they are a very different people from the Creeks with different traditions and dress. The language is what is called an “isolate”, meaning that it is not related to any other language in the world and is nothing at all like the Muscogee language. There are only seven fluent speakers left. Seven.

There’s a lot of crappy paternalistic and condescending attitudes on here about what happened, what is happening, to Natives in this country. You can’t tell me that the protests in Broken Arrow aren’t a lot about race. My daughter has had very hateful things said to her at Jenks about being Indian, my wife has been discriminated against at work. This isn’t some chapter in a book about the William the conqueror overrunning the Anglo-Saxons in 1066. My ancestors were there and it means nothing to me. But my daughter last year was proud to be the first Yuchi tribal princess and she is trying to learn the language. My kids spend every summer dancing and learning the traditions of their people. That’s real. This is happening to real people today, to my family. You can act like what the US did was well intentioned and just had to happen as part of the growth of the nation, but it wasn’t well intentioned and it’s still happening now. Your sadly pretty common attitude proves there is still a long way to go.


I only read your first line. You best back off big mouth. You want to talk to someone in that language don't be a coward and hide behind a forum. Set up a time and place and come talk to a guy who has no qualms about setting you straight. I've suffered a fair amount of racism, from  Blacks, Hispanics, and Indians. Sadly, I've watched a lot of real racism at play and fought against it, not some intellectual masturbation from well insulated jounalists and moviemakers.  I was married to a Hispanic woman and had to defend her against my own family members. My son is married to a Cherokee with a birthright.

I'm going to take some deep breaths, drink some vodka and consider where your smile is coming from. If no apology by then ...we'll have a more hideous conversation.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2012, 06:36:25 pm »

And '50s and '60s, and even very early '70's right here in Tulsey-town.  Hale, Central (go figure), and Edison High Schools.
Now it seems like it is almost "cool" to be Indian - or at least part - things change.





I went to Central in the the late sixties. One of my best friends was Sammy Tigert, a full blood Indian and quarterback of the football team. Several other friends as well who played baseball and wrestled. One was JC who was Indian/Hispanic and president of the class one year. Fell in love with a Native American girl who went on to OSU, funny can't remember her name. Sue something. Suzie Supernaw was on the Yearbook staff and became tractor queen, she was well liked and respected. Oh, yeah, Cherry McIntosh was popular as well. We both served on the School Life staff. Her grandfather Dode McIntosh was the chief of their tribe. 

You chose the wrong school and the wrong time to allege Native American racism. We were all a pretty tight crew and as multi-cultural as you could get before it was cool to be multicultural. We were the first school to be integrated. I was a  Baptist kid and took the only Jewish girl, the daughter of a Rabbi, to the Senior Prom. It wasn't that it was cool to like Indians, blacks, Jews, Hispanics, rich and poor, in fact those things were rarely any consideration at all.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 09:17:37 pm by AquaMan » Logged

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AquaMan
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« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2012, 08:29:40 pm »

Too bad Swake, I held you in high regard. Whether or not the small casino in BA is a pox on the community or a boon to them is irrelevant really. Calling those people who disagree with having a gambling, drinking establishment in their city "racist" in nature is bad form. I suppose you know that there are people who insist that people like you moved to white bread Jenks because they are racist and are using the public school system as an excuse.

You don't know BA if you didn't expect this reaction. I worked there for 5 yrs and got to know the city's personality. Called on every business in town and worked with city leaders. A very provincial town. At that time there was only 1 bar in the whole city. They simply don't care for the same things us city folk like. They bought their homes to raise families in a wholesome environment and they have seen the crime, distress and vulgarity that gambling can bring. But enough, cause that's just racist rambling in your eyes.

I understand your fury. You’re married to a minority. During my first marriage (my wife was Hispanic), a family member looked at the room we had just painted a lovely shade of deep peach and commented, “Yeah, those Mexicans do like bright colors”. I was furious and nearly jumped at him. But he didn’t mean it in a negative way. He simply had been to old Mexico to see the colorful vendors in the touristy areas and that was his only perspective of Hispanics and color. He actually loved my wife and the color of the room.

This isn’t like that. Here's where I come from.

You are wrong to viscerally react to remarks that have nothing to do with racism and everything to do with logic, experience and reality. Emotions aren’t usually logical and when family is involved a perceived slight is considered emotionally. You get no break for that.

One story of many. When I first went into business for myself in advertising, I needed someone to share an office with. I was expanding and wanted someone with a background similar to mine that would provide some synergy. Our first son was a year old and being cared for each day by a young Native American woman who suggested her husband had that experience. We met and hit it off well. He was doing marketing for his tribe and producing advertising for some small accounts. We were near the same age and with similar education. We opened an office and had some fun. Once he realized that his real interest was in publishing a newspaper it seemed like a perfect fit. I had just finished closing down a weekly here in town and had learned a lot from the experience. He loved my input and put it to use.

He bought a failing Indian newspaper, divorced his wife and married the editor of the little paper who was also Native American. I was so naïve. My experience to that date with NA’s was nothing but positive as I pointed out to Heiro. We had many discussions, just like the one on this thread, and each understood the other’s viewpoint but we were unable to find common ground. He explained how Indians hate Democrats because of Andrew Jackson who forcibly moved them to Oklahoma. They won't even carry currency with his image! Few Democrats today would identify with Jackson’s views, but it doesn’t matter. That’s just plain stupid and he knew it. We laughed about how ridiculous a situation guys like him were forced to operate in but the reality is, he was gutless.

I soon was told that no matter how helpful I might be, and he appreciated the help, there was absolutely no way I could be involved in any way with the newspaper. Why? “Because you’re white”. He feared Indian backlash. His brother was an investor and hated white folks. I was stunned. He used my Mac system, he used my office suite as a backdrop and interview room and generally played off of my experience, but it ended there. Soon I had to admit to the obvious. His racism (yes it was against anyone of the white race, thus racism) fueled by ambition, led to non bona-fide discrimination and neither has a place in business.  I moved out and he was furious with me. I see him occasionally. He eventually became a chief of his tribe. He screwed that up too. I won’t give the details. His paper never became much, probably because he never made use of non tribal blood.

That’s real life Swake. Not some middle school kids poking fun at an Indian Princess costume. And it happens every time a non Dawes roll applicant hopelessly fills out employment papers at a casino. A few get chosen, like Custo, just like a few people walk around the midway at the fair with a huge stuffed animal. Good PR.

I have lots of real life stories that are of a similar pattern. I was the first ad rep to work with Creek Nation Bingo and lobbied hard to get my bosses to let them in full circulation distribution of the newspaper back in the eighties. Damn lawyers were scared of losing their mailing privileges since the Postmaster General considered high stakes bingo as gambling. The mob type non tribals they were using as consultants dang near bankrupted them but they could only do so because the manager was a bungling, incompetent full blood Creek.

Later I was paid back for my hard work by my application for employment being ignored and my proposal for a marketing venture to be tersely discarded without discussion. The Cherokees were more professional but the same results.

Ironically my son is married to a card carrying Cherokee replete with benefits galore. She's lovely and unaffected by the racist germ that others acquired.

Yet, you think all this kind of behavior is similar to fraternities, nepotism and chauvinism? Yeah, well, you’d fit well in their organizations.
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Conan71
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« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2012, 12:38:04 am »

Aqua, your post reminded me about superiority complexes amongst differing tribes.  I dated a Cherokee after my first marriage ended.  She and her sisters always looked down her nose at Creeks and considered them to be the dregs of the Five Civilized. They weren't the only Cherokees I've heard talk badly about Creeks.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2012, 09:33:20 am »

Aqua, your post reminded me about superiority complexes amongst differing tribes.  I dated a Cherokee after my first marriage ended.  She and her sisters always looked down her nose at Creeks and considered them to be the dregs of the Five Civilized. They weren't the only Cherokees I've heard talk badly about Creeks.

Yes, my friend would joke about how his tribe used to get drunk and go raid the lesser tribes' villages back in the day. Curious isn't it? Part of it is that they took different sides during the Civil War. Part of it is just human nature.
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« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2012, 09:37:57 am »

I went to Central in the the late sixties. One of my best friends was Sammy Tigert, a full blood Indian and quarterback of the football team. Several other friends as well who played baseball and wrestled. One was JC who was Indian/Hispanic and president of the class one year. Fell in love with a Native American girl who went on to OSU, funny can't remember her name. Sue something. Suzie Supernaw was on the Yearbook staff and became tractor queen, she was well liked and respected. Oh, yeah, Cherry McIntosh was popular as well. We both served on the School Life staff. Her grandfather Dode McIntosh was the chief of their tribe.

You chose the wrong school and the wrong time to allege Native American racism. We were all a pretty tight crew and as multi-cultural as you could get before it was cool to be multicultural. We were the first school to be integrated. I was a  Baptist kid and took the only Jewish girl, the daughter of a Rabbi, to the Senior Prom. It wasn't that it was cool to like Indians, blacks, Jews, Hispanics, rich and poor, in fact those things were rarely any consideration at all.

Yeah...I met some of the people at Central and later married into one of the poor white/Indian families that went there (that's how my kids got their cards).  Didn't know Sammy.  Lots of undercurrents at that school at that time.  There were others at that school that were very much racist against Indians - like you said, multicultural.  That's why I said "go figure" - because there was such a diversity in the school.  (SmileKickers we called them.)

And SWMBO is also (mostly) Cherokee - eastern branch.  Love the southern accent the family has!



« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 09:43:51 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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