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Author Topic: Making the Case for Medical Marijuana  (Read 411846 times)
patric
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« Reply #915 on: July 18, 2018, 01:38:57 pm »

I know such a potential benefit gets touted by supporters of medical marijuana, but are you aware of any evidence that it is actually so?  From what I’ve seen, so far the data shows no real decrease in opioid use/abuse/overdoses in states that have legalized medical or recreational marijuana.

Here's one...

Legalized medical cannabis lowers opioid use, study finds
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180402202236.htm

States that have approved medical cannabis laws saw a dramatic reduction in opioid use, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Georgia.

In a paper published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association, Internal Medicine, researchers examined the number of all opioid prescriptions filled between 2010 and 2015 under Medicare Part D, the prescription drug benefit plan available to Medicare enrollees.


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2676999
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« Reply #916 on: July 18, 2018, 01:52:04 pm »


It's even more naive to think that a large number of people are not already using mj - up to 1/3 or more...when it's illegal.

There has been a steady process of liberalizing mj laws - for decades!  And there are no indications of big increases of adverse effects.  In fact, if one is concerned about morality rates from opioids, the JAMA has found that death rates in states with easier mj laws are running on average 25% less than the Jeff Sessions attitude states.  That is a significant positive effect.

https://nypost.com/2017/09/14/marijuana-legalization-hasnt-led-to-more-drug-abuse-study/



As for all the hoopla about increased fatal accident rates from mj...well, WA claims it has "doubled" in the last several years.  The numbers just don't show it as a big problem.  They published a report covering 2008 - 2016. (Link below).  4,000 drivers were either not tested or tested negative - no drugs, no alcohol.  Of the several hundred tested positive, the vast majority were positive for alcohol and drugs (1885 total).  There were 188 tested positive for mj only (compared to 670 tested for alcohol only).  Out of 5,900+ that is still a pretty small number - 20 per year.  And if as they claim, that is twice the previous rate - 10 per year - they really aren't seeing any problem at all - it is all in the statistical noise.  And their population grew through that time by somewhere in the 15% range, so normalizing these numbers to rate of population increase would probably give about 7 or 8 more fatal accidents a year due to legal mj.  And how many people received big improvements in medical outcomes in that same time?  I bet it was more than the death rate.

Pag 11.

http://wtsc.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/04/Marijuana-and-Alcohol-Involvement-in-Fatal-Crashes-in-WA_FINAL.pdf

Nowhere did I say marijuana use wasn’t currently prevalent.  However, what is undisputed is that marijuana use the past 20 years has increased significantly, overlapping the liberalization of marijuana laws.  Again, correlation is not causation.
 
As for studies of the issue, much of the data seems pretty inconclusive if not contradictory.  As noted in this study, for example, one study showed teen usages rates in Colorado remained flat after recreational use was legalized, yet that Colorado is now number 1 in teen usage rates.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/abcs-child-psychiatry/201704/does-legalized-marijuana-result-in-more-teen-use

What I do know, however, is hearing story after story from those ladies in Woman in Recovery and hearing a consistent theme of pot’s role in each of their personal descents into the hell of addition.  That’s real and it shouldn’t be ignored as we implement this new law.
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DTowner
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« Reply #917 on: July 18, 2018, 02:06:44 pm »

Here's one...

Legalized medical cannabis lowers opioid use, study finds
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180402202236.htm

States that have approved medical cannabis laws saw a dramatic reduction in opioid use, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Georgia.

In a paper published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association, Internal Medicine, researchers examined the number of all opioid prescriptions filled between 2010 and 2015 under Medicare Part D, the prescription drug benefit plan available to Medicare enrollees.


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2676999

Maybe, although this more recent study suggests the benefits are negligible more recently and, to the extent it has any effect, it may only be for prescription opioids. 

https://www.rand.org/news/press/2018/02/06.html

I don't know answer, but I think it is useful to assume that no public policy change leads to unalloyed good outcomes and that legalizing marijuana for medical and/or recreation usage will have down sides.


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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #918 on: July 18, 2018, 02:38:40 pm »

Nowhere did I say marijuana use wasn’t currently prevalent.  However, what is undisputed is that marijuana use the past 20 years has increased significantly, overlapping the liberalization of marijuana laws.  Again, correlation is not causation.
 
As for studies of the issue, much of the data seems pretty inconclusive if not contradictory.  As noted in this study, for example, one study showed teen usages rates in Colorado remained flat after recreational use was legalized, yet that Colorado is now number 1 in teen usage rates.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/abcs-child-psychiatry/201704/does-legalized-marijuana-result-in-more-teen-use

What I do know, however, is hearing story after story from those ladies in Woman in Recovery and hearing a consistent theme of pot’s role in each of their personal descents into the hell of addition.  That’s real and it shouldn’t be ignored as we implement this new law.


Studies, polls, and statistics are easy to manipulate. All you have to do is figure out the response you want and tailor the questions and the studies to fit the answer.

The one thing that I am most curious about is the correlation between genetics and addiction. There are studies as to social, cultural and genetic predisposition to addiction. I would be curious to see if the women in that program had addiction in their ancestry.

I still believe the perceived uptick in the number of people using is the fact that they have come out of the shadows now that it is legal. Before legalization I seriously doubt that you could get an accurate count on the number of recreational users because it was illegal.

https://www.rehabs.com/5-ways-you-can-be-physiologically-predisposed-for-addiction/

https://www.rehabs.com/5-socio-cultural-factors-that-cultivate-addiction/
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patric
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« Reply #919 on: July 19, 2018, 08:19:20 am »


The one thing that I am most curious about is the correlation between genetics and addiction. There are studies as to social, cultural and genetic predisposition to addiction. I would be curious to see if the women in that program had addiction in their ancestry.

dbacksfan did a good job of articulating what was in the back of my mind, and while I hesitate to categorize DTowner's group as "born that way," science has recognized that there are groups of people who are more susceptible to addictive behavior than others, and that remains true regardless of what substances are available to them.  They have my support for recognizing their problem and working to overcome it.

On the lighter side, here is Today in Okiehome Pot Politics:




Despite approving emergency rules from the Board of Health last week regulating State Question 788, Gov. Mary Fallin said the board should rescind its adoption of two last-minute amendments that Attorney General Mike Hunter found were improper.

The Health Department, Fallin and the five board members who voted to approve the ban on smokable marijuana sales face a lawsuit in Oklahoma County that alleges violations of the Open Meeting Act.

Tulsa-based attorney Ron Durbin II ... asserted that the five board members named as defendants should immediately resign and asked the Oklahoma County District Attorney’s Office to investigate the matter.

“Even if the board were to correct its serious overreach to usurp the will of the people, it does not change the fact that they well may have violated Oklahoma law during their power grab,” Durbin said.


https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/marijuana/gov-mary-fallin-urges-board-to-rescind-last-minute-changes/article_ba058014-c3f3-558d-8d2c-8b9095112c50.html







VIDEO:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN1WDdkEjis

Sheriff Scott Walton, through documents filed by his lawyer in federal court, denied Charles “Chip” Paul’s allegations that the sheriff assaulted Paul when he removed Paul from the meeting.

During this confrontation, Walton grabbed Paul by the neck and escorted him from the building. Video of the altercation shows Walton leading Paul out of the facility with both hands around his neck. As Paul is directed through a set of double doors, it appears that his forehead is pushed into one of them.


https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/marijuana/rogers-county-sheriff-denies-allegations-in-marijuana-advocate-s-lawsuit/article_17598c03-1aad-567c-8303-1e81e6971669.html
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 03:27:52 pm by patric » Logged

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« Reply #920 on: July 19, 2018, 02:36:11 pm »

I know such a potential benefit gets touted by supporters of medical marijuana, but are you aware of any evidence that it is actually so?  From what I’ve seen, so far the data shows no real decrease in opioid use/abuse/overdoses in states that have legalized medical or recreational marijuana.

As an aside, at last night’s Women in Recovery graduation ceremony most of the graduating women spoke of their early pot usage as a beginning of their terrible journey to addiction and all the attendant nightmares associated with it.  Some truly heartbreaking stories.  I’m not trying to make a case of pot as a gateway drug or that correlation is causation, but this was a stark reminder of the sad reality that for a number of people using alcohol or pot at a young age will not be simply youthful experimentation or a rite of passage to adulthood.  Instead, it will lead to a destructive cycle of broken lives, abused and neglected children and destroyed families.  Medical marijuana may be a good thing on balance for some people, but it is naive to think that making marijuana legally more readily available will not come with negative consequences for a significant number of individuals.


Understood.  My "gateway" of altered states was stealing mom's Kent cigarettes and my step dad's beer from the fridge.  I suppose some people may have started experimentation with pot and wanted to try more mind-bending drugs or for some reason that high wasn't enough.  There is, without a doubt, a possibility of emotional or mental dependency on MJ.  Why people progress beyond that, I have no idea.  I've been very uncomfortably stoned before on some really potent weed and couldn't understand some people's propensity to get wrecked on something much harder.

I'm a believer that if people have a pre-disposition to addiction, they will eventually be an addict regardless what is available when they transition to it.  I've known many dry drunks and addicts who have never so much as experimented with drugs or alcohol.  If you are familiar with recovery concepts then you are aware that addiction is a form or manifestation of compulsive behavior.

Because it exists, it doesn't make people addicts, it's just a symptom.
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« Reply #921 on: July 19, 2018, 03:18:18 pm »

Understood.  My "gateway" of altered states was stealing mom's Kent cigarettes and my step dad's beer from the fridge.  I suppose some people may have started experimentation with pot and wanted to try more mind-bending drugs or for some reason that high wasn't enough.  There is, without a doubt, a possibility of emotional or mental dependency on MJ.  Why people progress beyond that, I have no idea.  I've been very uncomfortably stoned before on some really potent weed and couldn't understand some people's propensity to get wrecked on something much harder.

I'm a believer that if people have a pre-disposition to addiction, they will eventually be an addict regardless what is available when they transition to it.  I've known many dry drunks and addicts who have never so much as experimented with drugs or alcohol.  If you are familiar with recovery concepts then you are aware that addiction is a form or manifestation of compulsive behavior.

Because it exists, it doesn't make people addicts, it's just a symptom.

I was a semi-regular weed smoker in the obvious ages.  I dabbled in harder drugs to see what the big deal was about but always came back to weed.  The harder stuff never scared me (what little I used).

However, about two years ago I needed a dental procedure that required pain medication.  He prescribed me 10 doses of oxycodone.  I'd never tried it.  I can see where one might get hooked on them.  I used 8 of them, then flushed the remaining two when I realized naproxen (Aleve) worked just fine at that point.

I think the corollary between medicinal MJ and opioid addiction is so new that the dataset can't be borne out just yet.  Watching what the OHB did these past two weeks though...wouldn't surprise me if nearer in the future than many thought, Oklahoma would legalize recreational.  I say let it happen.  Tax it.  Revenue stream.  Not any worse than alcohol and, as I've said in the past, no confirmed case of someone ODing on cannabis.
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« Reply #922 on: July 19, 2018, 07:32:45 pm »

Pharmacy board head allegedly offered official a job to sway marijuana rules

Oklahoma City — The lawyer for a former state official accused of sending threatening messages to herself over medical marijuana regulations said attempted bribes and pressure from heads of other state agencies had taken a toll on her.

Ed Blau is representing Julie Ezell, the former general counsel at the Oklahoma State Department of Health. Ezell resigned July 13 and was charged Tuesday with two felonies and a misdemeanor for allegedly creating false evidence by emailing threatening messages, which were written as if she were being stalked by a medical marijuana advocate, to herself.

The case took another strange turn Thursday when text messages published by the journalism website NonDoc appeared to show Chelsea Church, director of the Oklahoma State Board of Pharmacy, offering Ezell a job if she wrote a rule requiring medical marijuana dispensaries to hire pharmacists, three days before the board voted.

It wasn't clear from the messages if Church meant to offer a quid pro quo, but Blau said Ezell took the messages seriously.

“It's pretty clear that she had the director of another agency offering her what amounted to a bribe,” he said, adding that other agency heads whom he declined to name also were pressuring Ezell at the time. “She basically was offered a position that was not in the spotlight that she was in, for a lot more money.”

Church didn't respond to a request for comment.

Ultimately, Ezell didn't include the pharmacist requirement in the proposed regulations, but the state Board of Health voted to add it as an amendment at their July 10 meeting.

In the messages, sent in the evening of July 7, Church and Ezell discussed the pharmacist requirement. About 10 p.m., Church broached the issue of a job.


https://newsok.com/article/5601970/pharmacy-board-head-allegedly-offered-official-a-job-to-sway-marijuana-rules
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« Reply #923 on: July 19, 2018, 09:18:55 pm »

Guess people never learn, and why not much surprises me out of Oklahoma leadership on either side of the aisle. And yes I'm old enough to remember the scandal, and somewhere I have the entire Doonesburry comic strips that covered this. I graduated from Hale in 1981.

https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Times-Good-Boys-Commissioner/dp/0806125489
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« Reply #924 on: July 19, 2018, 10:00:34 pm »

Guess people never learn, and why not much surprises me out of Oklahoma leadership on either side of the aisle. And yes I'm old enough to remember the scandal, and somewhere I have the entire Doonesburry comic strips that covered this. I graduated from Hale in 1981.

https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Times-Good-Boys-Commissioner/dp/0806125489

I read somewhere that the song "Dirty Laundry" by Don Henley was partially influenced by the Com Scandal.  I was in jr high school, but I do remember this being all over the news at the time.
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #925 on: July 19, 2018, 10:16:21 pm »

I read somewhere that the song "Dirty Laundry" by Don Henley was partially influenced by the Com Scandal.  I was in jr high school, but I do remember this being all over the news at the time.

From Wiki FWIW.......

Quote
The song was inspired by the intrusive press coverage surrounding the deaths of John Belushi and Natalie Wood, and Henley's own arrest in 1980 when he was charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor and possession of marijuana, cocaine, and Quaaludes after paramedics treated a 16-year-old girl who subsequently died suffering from drug intoxication at his Los Angeles home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_Laundry_(Don_Henley_song)

But I can see the idea. That was back when CNN was born and the beginning of the 24 hour news cycle. I still get a kick out of the song today because he saw the way things were going. I was in the LA area when the voice of the LA Lakers Chick Hearn was taken to the hospital in critical condition, and all of the news there was about him around the clock. Long Beach could have fallen into the ocean and the news would not have noticed.
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« Reply #926 on: July 20, 2018, 08:24:44 am »

Guess people never learn, and why not much surprises me out of Oklahoma leadership on either side of the aisle. And yes I'm old enough to remember the scandal, and somewhere I have the entire Doonesburry comic strips that covered this. I graduated from Hale in 1981.

https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Times-Good-Boys-Commissioner/dp/0806125489


"Local government, the authors argue, is improved but remains vulnerable."

The authors are wrong - it isn't noticeably improved.   I remember at the time, there were a few of them sitting in prison (short times) who also were re-elected.  Just one reason Fed's have given up on worrying about OK.  If we don't care any more about the graft and corruption than to keep putting it in place, why should they??



Hale, huh?   I think there are several of us from there on this board - just shows how great minds congregate.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 08:26:18 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

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« Reply #927 on: July 20, 2018, 09:29:00 am »


"Local government, the authors argue, is improved but remains vulnerable."

The authors are wrong - it isn't noticeably improved.   I remember at the time, there were a few of them sitting in prison (short times) who also were re-elected.  Just one reason Fed's have given up on worrying about OK.  If we don't care any more about the graft and corruption than to keep putting it in place, why should they??

The "War on Drugs" was built on a foundation of corruption and lies.  Some groups gravitated to that with ease.

Meanwhile...

Oklahoma House and Senate leaders have announced the members of a bipartisan legislative working group charged with helping to implement State Question 788 in a “manner that conforms to the will of the voters.”
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/marijuana/lawmakers-named-to-bipartisan-medical-marijuana-working-group/article_e9b4ab6b-46f1-5504-a258-a5cc6e34fcb8.html

We were anticipating such a group, but it was expected they would be the Pharma-lobbyist-funded wrecking ball and not a state board who was supposed to stick with policing food-borne illnesses and beauty shops.
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« Reply #928 on: July 20, 2018, 10:22:56 am »

Pharmacy board head allegedly offered official a job to sway marijuana rules

Oklahoma City — The lawyer for a former state official accused of sending threatening messages to herself over medical marijuana regulations said attempted bribes and pressure from heads of other state agencies had taken a toll on her.

Ed Blau is representing Julie Ezell, the former general counsel at the Oklahoma State Department of Health. Ezell resigned July 13 and was charged Tuesday with two felonies and a misdemeanor for allegedly creating false evidence by emailing threatening messages, which were written as if she were being stalked by a medical marijuana advocate, to herself.

The case took another strange turn Thursday when text messages published by the journalism website NonDoc appeared to show Chelsea Church, director of the Oklahoma State Board of Pharmacy, offering Ezell a job if she wrote a rule requiring medical marijuana dispensaries to hire pharmacists, three days before the board voted.

It wasn't clear from the messages if Church meant to offer a quid pro quo, but Blau said Ezell took the messages seriously.

“It's pretty clear that she had the director of another agency offering her what amounted to a bribe,” he said, adding that other agency heads whom he declined to name also were pressuring Ezell at the time. “She basically was offered a position that was not in the spotlight that she was in, for a lot more money.”

Church didn't respond to a request for comment.

Ultimately, Ezell didn't include the pharmacist requirement in the proposed regulations, but the state Board of Health voted to add it as an amendment at their July 10 meeting.

In the messages, sent in the evening of July 7, Church and Ezell discussed the pharmacist requirement. About 10 p.m., Church broached the issue of a job.


https://newsok.com/article/5601970/pharmacy-board-head-allegedly-offered-official-a-job-to-sway-marijuana-rules

Using the pressure of being bribed as a defense to concocting a fake threat to your life is an interesting approach.  And how does the state Pharmacy Board pays its general counsel more than the Health Dept.?
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #929 on: July 20, 2018, 01:52:40 pm »

The "War on Drugs" was built on a foundation of corruption and lies.  Some groups gravitated to that with ease.




It is the RWRE I have been using for so long....


And in Okrahoma, decades ago, that was the Democratic party.  Now, it's the Republicans.


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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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