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Author Topic: Making the Case for Medical Marijuana  (Read 79118 times)
AquaMan
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« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2011, 09:15:21 am »

Although I disagree, and do so with a wealth of experiential evidence, I have no intention of arguing a stance I no longer can justify in the face of pragmatic concerns.

Regardless of the arguments as to genetics, morality, societal degradation etc., it remains a fact that the cost to humanity of zealously persecuting, prosecuting and proselytizing is simply too costly.

I remember seeing films of chimps in the wild hanging around fruit trees and eating the rotting, fermenting fruit on the ground to get drunk and orgy. Seems like nature provides that sort of thing without any moral consequences. Of course the chimps are then helpless against predators, so natural consequences are in play. They are for humans too.
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Conan71
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« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2011, 10:03:20 am »

Although I disagree, and do so with a wealth of experiential evidence, I have no intention of arguing a stance I no longer can justify in the face of pragmatic concerns.

Regardless of the arguments as to genetics, morality, societal degradation etc., it remains a fact that the cost to humanity of zealously persecuting, prosecuting and proselytizing is simply too costly.

I remember seeing films of chimps in the wild hanging around fruit trees and eating the rotting, fermenting fruit on the ground to get drunk and orgy. Seems like nature provides that sort of thing without any moral consequences. Of course the chimps are then helpless against predators, so natural consequences are in play. They are for humans too.

What are the reasons against, if you still held that view?

I don't partake of the substance any more and wouldn't if it were legal, so I really don't have a horse in this race.  The only real deleterious effects of pot are a number of carcinogens (supposedly 50% more than in cigarette smoke) and mental/emotional addiction to it.  To my knowledge there's not really any sort of physical dependency issues with it.

Most people I know who do or did smoke it generally did so to relax and didn't care to do it then drive or go to the store.  Certainly, there have been auto and work accidents caused by people under the influence, but I'd argue the incidence is far less than that of people under the influence of alcohol which is a perfectly legal drug.  I'd also argue that moderate use of pot doesn't result in near the long-term health effects as alcohol does and it's toll on family life and careers isn't nearly that of alcohol either.  I'm also not aware that one could smoke enough pot in one sitting to kill themselves like other drugs or alcohol.

That said, I don't believe all drugs should be decriminalized, just pot.  This 30 year war has been a failure.
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
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« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2011, 10:12:03 am »



I remember seeing films of chimps in the wild hanging around fruit trees and eating the rotting, fermenting fruit on the ground to get drunk and orgy. Seems like nature provides that sort of thing without any moral consequences. Of course the chimps are then helpless against predators, so natural consequences are in play. They are for humans too.

"Animals are Beautiful People" is the film you are thinking of.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5E5TjkDvU0[/youtube]
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dbacks fan
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« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2011, 10:18:04 am »

I think it should be decriminalized as well. Like several others I used it years ago (30+), I don't think I would run out and buy swome if it was legal. But the thing that gets me is it is clasified as a Class 1 Drug, which is considered more dangerous than Class 2 drugs that include cocaine, morphine, and oxycodone.
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Townsend
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« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2011, 10:22:02 am »

I think it should be decriminalized as well. Like several others I used it years ago (30+), I don't think I would run out and buy swome if it was legal. But the thing that gets me is it is clasified as a Class 1 Drug, which is considered more dangerous than Class 2 drugs that include cocaine, morphine, and oxycodone.

And have you ever tried to bake morphine into anything made by Betty Crocker?  #tastesofass
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dbacks fan
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« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2011, 10:41:33 am »

And have you ever tried to bake morphine into anything made by Betty Crocker?  #tastesofass

Can't say that I have, but then again I was never interested in "hard drugs" at all.
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Townsend
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« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2011, 10:46:09 am »

Can't say that I have, but then again I was never interested in "hard drugs" at all.

*Cough*pot brownies*cough*
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dbacks fan
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« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2011, 10:53:06 am »

*Cough*pot brownies*cough*

Did make lunch time in my teens a lot more interesting.  Wink
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Townsend
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« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2011, 11:01:50 am »

Did make lunch time in my teens a lot more interesting.  Wink

OK, just making sure you were still with me.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2011, 11:10:35 am »

"Animals are Beautiful People" is the film you are thinking of.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5E5TjkDvU0[/youtube]


Love that film. Not sure its the same one I saw some 40 years ago but hilarious anyway.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2011, 11:48:31 am »

What are the reasons against, if you still held that view?

I don't partake of the substance any more and wouldn't if it were legal, so I really don't have a horse in this race.  The only real deleterious effects of pot are a number of carcinogens (supposedly 50% more than in cigarette smoke) and mental/emotional addiction to it.  To my knowledge there's not really any sort of physical dependency issues with it.

Most people I know who do or did smoke it generally did so to relax and didn't care to do it then drive or go to the store.  Certainly, there have been auto and work accidents caused by people under the influence, but I'd argue the incidence is far less than that of people under the influence of alcohol which is a perfectly legal drug.  I'd also argue that moderate use of pot doesn't result in near the long-term health effects as alcohol does and it's toll on family life and careers isn't nearly that of alcohol either.  I'm also not aware that one could smoke enough pot in one sitting to kill themselves like other drugs or alcohol.

That said, I don't believe all drugs should be decriminalized, just pot.  This 30 year war has been a failure.

Ok. Well...first compare the level of THC from 30 years ago to today. We were getting relaxed. Like my dad having a shot of Scotch after a hard day. At today's levels you're getting hammered. The results have been different as well. We got the munchies, got stupid, got laid and continued to keep our jobs and get our education. As many of you noted, it was a phase. Today, you still get the munchies but you get lethargic, lose your job, lose your short term memory, lose your focus, and likely stay stupid longer. Music and film education has become outstanding but ask the 18 year old in your workplace to tell you what % 16 is of 24 and get it on video. Long term studies are starting to come to fruition and from what I've heard the results aren't pretty.

Answer this question truthfully. Do you think the de-criminalization of marijuana, based on the argument that other drugs and alcohol are legal, will increase or decrease usage of the drug? And corollary questions...Will de-criminalization result in the corporatizing of the drugs production and marketing? Will you feel any safer knowing that you're being served by someone who is or recently was legally hammered?

I think it will increase usage and result in the passage of tons of regulations and lawsuits over who can and can't produce and sell it based on the history of moonshining. The long term usage negative health results, which beside cancer, may include permanent changes in brain function, genetic damage and early onset diabetes more than offset its relaxation abilities even if it is not a "gateway" drug. And I think it is incorrect to believe that where you buy your drugs has no impact on what other drugs you may buy. When I go to the liquor store for a bottle of wine and see cherry flavored Vodka, the weekend just got a little fuzzier. Wink

Then imagine the change in societal norms from that increased, broadened usage. Truth is, stupid people make decisions that hamper all our lives and this puts more stupid people on the streets. One of the largest train accidents in our history was because an engineer was smoking a blunt in the locomotive. Good thing he wasn't a pilot.

Pragmatically its a losing game to use so much of our resources to fight it in the way we've chosen. Its simply stupid. It should be decriminalized but I would hope we can do so without opening the door to wide scale corporate marketing of the drug.



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« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2011, 12:12:46 pm »

Would you know if your being served by someone who is illegally hammered now? Visine and a change of clothes can hide the facts.

Would you feel safer is was decriminalized and produced by companies that had regulations that they had to follow as does the tobacco and alchohol manufactures do now?

There would probablly be an increase of usage of course, because people who used it recreationaly in their youth, could use it again. As for myself I doubt that I would. Yes it would also increase regulations on enforcement (ie workplace usage) but that would be similar to other regulations already in place. (yes I know that it shows for a number of days in you system after usage) There would have to be a scale developed to show imparement similar to alchohol, but you can also be arre3sted and charged with DUI if you are taking medication prescibed to you, why do you think most drugs have a warning on them about driving or operating heavy equipment while using the medication. (Besides the obvious attempt of the mfg's covering their donkey to prevent a lawsuit)
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Conan71
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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2011, 12:29:07 pm »

I've spent a fair amount of time in Colorado this year.  I'm amazed at how pervasive the medial MJ business has gotten there.  It's simply an end-run around existing laws, and you can be pretty certain the people dispensing it are under the influence or have been at some point recently.

What are some of the acceptable diagnoses which will get you a prescription?  Depression, anxiety, insomnia... get it?  Pay a shrink $100 for a scrip and you are good to go.

Aqua, I've read and heard of the study results like you have and don't disagree there are other long-term effects of pot.  I really don't know if more people would use or not if it were legal.  It would not be an incentive to me as I like having full lung capacity and don't want them pasted up with tar.  I did enough damage over the years with smoking.  There's all sorts of long term health issues with drugs we choose to keep legal like tobacco and alcohol too.  Many of the same maladies as you outlined with the dope can be found with heavy alcohol use.

We simply have to get a handle on how many people we incarcerate and this is one thing which would help, as well as trying to rehabilitate end users of other drugs rather than incarceration.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2011, 01:28:59 pm »

Would you know if your being served by someone who is illegally hammered now? Visine and a change of clothes can hide the facts.

Having much experience during the last couple of decades with users both at the workplace and in the family, yes, I would know. But I won't be able to see the cook, the pilot, the truck driver, the corporates etc. They have been fooling their bosses and family for years and will continue to do so.

Would you feel safer is was decriminalized and produced by companies that had regulations that they had to follow as does the tobacco and alchohol manufactures do now?

No. I don't trust the tobacco and alcohol manufacturers any more than I do drug dealers who cut their product or lace it with who knows what. They are all liars with low integrity. Wine has antifreeze in it. Cigarettes have really weird carcinogens in them. Bath salts. Enough said.

There would probablly be an increase of usage of course, because people who used it recreationaly in their youth, could use it again. As for myself I doubt that I would. Yes it would also increase regulations on enforcement (ie workplace usage) but that would be similar to other regulations already in place. (yes I know that it shows for a number of days in you system after usage) There would have to be a scale developed to show imparement similar to alchohol, but you can also be arre3sted and charged with DUI if you are taking medication prescibed to you, why do you think most drugs have a warning on them about driving or operating heavy equipment while using the medication. (Besides the obvious attempt of the mfg's covering their donkey to prevent a lawsuit)

I think the increase would tend to broaden out over time as sophisticated marketers get a grip on how to sell the stuff to different demographics without totally exposing themselves. At what age is consumption legal? At what levels? At what legal exposure? I think its a can of worms whose regulation and legal impact will make the health care proposals look simplistic. States will want to control but the Fed will resist. But, I know its indefensible the way we handle it now. And, I know I could be wrong. Users at least need to stop being punished with a sledgehammer.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2011, 01:35:05 pm »

I've spent a fair amount of time in Colorado this year.  I'm amazed at how pervasive the medial MJ business has gotten there.  It's simply an end-run around existing laws, and you can be pretty certain the people dispensing it are under the influence or have been at some point recently.

What are some of the acceptable diagnoses which will get you a prescription?  Depression, anxiety, insomnia... get it?  Pay a shrink $100 for a scrip and you are good to go.

Aqua, I've read and heard of the study results like you have and don't disagree there are other long-term effects of pot.  I really don't know if more people would use or not if it were legal.  It would not be an incentive to me as I like having full lung capacity and don't want them pasted up with tar.  I did enough damage over the years with smoking.  There's all sorts of long term health issues with drugs we choose to keep legal like tobacco and alcohol too.  Many of the same maladies as you outlined with the dope can be found with heavy alcohol use.

We simply have to get a handle on how many people we incarcerate and this is one thing which would help, as well as trying to rehabilitate end users of other drugs rather than incarceration.

I very much agree with your last statement.

There is lots of controversy in Colorado and California as regards the medical usage. Many small communities are up in arms. Both states have movements to restrict or eliminate them. That is a preview of what would happen nationally.
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