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March 18, 2024, 09:35:21 pm
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Author Topic: 102 Things NOT To Do If You Hate Taxes  (Read 18939 times)
nathanm
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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2011, 03:17:39 pm »

Speaking of taxes, why is it again that people claim that personal taxation is massive? Most people pay more income tax than anything else, yet income tax, personal property tax, and licenses are a little over 9% of GDP, well below the post-1950 average.



Before the payroll tax holiday, payroll tax collections were down only a few tenths of a percent relative to GDP, but thanks to the cuts, collections dropped by 1% of GDP to a bit over 6%.

By the way, whoever said that companies are beholden to their shareholders may have said the funniest thing I've heard all week. Corporate governance in this country is very poor on the whole, at least in publicly traded companies. Shareholders can't or won't push for accountability, the board is usually controlled by the CEO.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
Conan71
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2011, 03:49:04 pm »

You live in La-La Land Nate. And I don't mean Los Angeles either.
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
nathanm
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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2011, 03:55:51 pm »

You live in La-La Land Nate. And I don't mean Los Angeles either.

How Orwellian of you. Basing one's opinion on facts now puts one in la-la land, while serious people base their opinion on..something else. Such skillful jujitsu.

Edited to add: If you prefer to look at it as a percentage of personal income, here you go:



Doesn't really make the case that taxes are high relative to historic norms.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 04:02:33 pm by nathanm » Logged

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
Conan71
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« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2011, 06:50:33 pm »

How Orwellian of you. Basing one's opinion on facts now puts one in la-la land, while serious people base their opinion on..something else. Such skillful jujitsu.

Edited to add: If you prefer to look at it as a percentage of personal income, here you go:



Doesn't really make the case that taxes are high relative to historic norms.

This is your quote I take issue with:

Quote
By the way, whoever said that companies are beholden to their shareholders may have said the funniest thing I've heard all week. Corporate governance in this country is very poor on the whole, at least in publicly traded companies. Shareholders can't or won't push for accountability, the board is usually controlled by the CEO.

That's a really broad brush for such a tiny reality of business in America.

Think about it, what motivates a company to turn a profit?  It's not a desire to pay more in taxes, it's not an altruistic duty to create jobs or provide a means of consumption.  The principal purpose of a for-profit corporation is to turn a profit for it's shareholders.  The only reason to own stock in a company as a passive investor (unless you are shorting it) is the expectation of profit in the form of dividends and/or increasing the value of the initial investment through the profitable operations of the company.

Boards serve at the pleasure of the share-holders and frequently are made up of major share-holders.  CEO's usually serve at the pleasure of the board and are frequently turned out for poor performance and rewarded for great performance. Certainly, the structure differs from one corporation to another and the amount of relative power a CEO has over the board depends on how much of a stake of the company they own and whether or not the corporation is largely held by the same family and if the CEO is a member of that family.

As per my original statement, business must necessarily operate much more efficiently than government.  Business can't afford extraneous layers of administration for make work projects, they can't afford to foot massive cost-overruns when projects are mis-managed, and they typically will be much more alert for fraud, theft, and mitigating loss because there is no bottomless pit for them.

Sometimes I question where you come up with some of your positions because they are at complete odds with the realities of economics and commerce.
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2011, 07:01:06 pm »

probably all those receiving assistance that are bringing the average down.
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AquaMan
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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2011, 07:08:42 pm »

Its more than him you're questioning. I pretty much agree with him and find your statements lacking in reality. That's the way its supposed to work but it just doesn't. I watched in horror as Cities Service was mismanaged to death with the board as willing accomplices. Perceived wasteful layers of administration were eliminated by routinely bingeing and purging entire departments because it looked good to the stockholders. Stock down? Better centralize! Then grow it back over time.  It gutted their operations. Best employees went out with deadwood. Other oil companies snapped them up. Copper mines, shale oil, oh yeah baby!! Don't worry about it. Stuff like that set them up for takeover. Went from 9th largest oil company in America to takeover bait because of a few bad presidents supported with self serving boards. Occidental? Armand Hammer? They were not aberrations.

Actually at Cities you were at a disadvantage if you were tall, not from back east or Chicago, or spoke like a Cajun. I understand that one of the large oil companies here moved their entire operation because the president's wife didn't like the social atmosphere in Tulsa. Just lacked that Houston feel, y'all. That sound like a board with its head on straight?

The system still works, its just not as simple as you portray.
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nathanm
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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2011, 07:28:53 pm »

Conan, you're hampered by your idealistic view of corporate governance. It should work that way, but it doesn't. Shareholders have almost no say because they don't get to elect whomever they like, they get to choose between management's candidates, at least in most public companies. The real profit motive? Executive bonuses. That's why there's no focus on a year from now, only this quarter.

It's true that the little guy doesn't get to play by the same rules, but that's not really what we were talking about.

BKDotCom, unemployment benefits have been taxable since the early Reagan years.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
Conan71
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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2011, 07:37:58 pm »

Its more than him you're questioning. I pretty much agree with him and find your statements lacking in reality. That's the way its supposed to work but it just doesn't. I watched in horror as Cities Service was mismanaged to death with the board as willing accomplices. Perceived wasteful layers of administration were eliminated by routinely bingeing and purging entire departments because it looked good to the stockholders. Stock down? Better centralize! Then grow it back over time.  It gutted their operations. Best employees went out with deadwood. Other oil companies snapped them up. Copper mines, shale oil, oh yeah baby!! Don't worry about it. Stuff like that set them up for takeover. Went from 9th largest oil company in America to takeover bait because of a few bad presidents supported with self serving boards. Occidental? Armand Hammer? They were not aberrations.

Actually at Cities you were at a disadvantage if you were tall, not from back east or Chicago, or spoke like a Cajun. I understand that one of the large oil companies here moved their entire operation because the president's wife didn't like the social atmosphere in Tulsa. Just lacked that Houston feel, y'all. That sound like a board with its head on straight?

The system still works, its just not as simple as you portray.

If anything your version is skewed.  Especially the last paragraph, but I digress.

Purging wasteful departments is precisely my point when it comes to corporate structure.  Why do they make cuts?  To stay profitable or return to profitability sooner.  They don't get rid of waste and employees which no longer fit the business model or the changing business climate out of spite or pure stupidity.  When companies sell out, know the motive?  Profit and increased value for shareholders.  There's one reason all that happens: PROFIT!!  Who benefits from profit (aside from taxing authorities)? Shareholders!!!  And the truth will set you free!!!

Another local case in point: in 2001 within six weeks of 9/11, Dollar Thrifty purged a lot of jobs and shed itself of any fleet they could to react quickly to the growing financial crisis stemming from the recession of '00/01 and the upheaval in the travel industry.  They did it again a few years ago, coming back from the brink of bankruptcy.

I can see an Aqua Man/Conan summit is needed soon.  Pick the place and I'll buy the Marshall's as soon as I return from my race out in Colorado week after next.  I miss your good natured cheer.
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Conan71
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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2011, 07:39:20 pm »

Conan, you're hampered by your idealistic view of corporate governance. It should work that way, but it doesn't. Shareholders have almost no say because they don't get to elect whomever they like, they get to choose between management's candidates, at least in most public companies. The real profit motive? Executive bonuses. That's why there's no focus on a year from now, only this quarter.

It's true that the little guy doesn't get to play by the same rules, but that's not really what we were talking about.

BKDotCom, unemployment benefits have been taxable since the early Reagan years.

How long ago was your divorce from reality final?
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
AquaMan
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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2011, 07:58:07 pm »

If anything your version is skewed.  Especially the last paragraph, but I digress.


I can see an Aqua Man/Conan summit is needed soon.  Pick the place and I'll buy the Marshall's as soon as I return from my race out in Colorado week after next.  I miss your good natured cheer.

Finally you're making some sense! Good luck with the race.
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guido911
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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2011, 08:08:17 pm »

Conan, my issue with Nate is he has no real world experience with how companies operate. It's nothing but sophistry and irrelevant information masquerading as supporting facts that drives his economic view. As to the latter, making the "rich" look like they are not paying enough in taxes by looking at tax policy in connection with GDP. Who gives a frak about that? Only the Nate's in the world, not the greedy/selfish shlub making 400K year and pays >100K in taxes, suggest that people already paying more in taxes than the Nate's earn in a year should pay more because of what the rich paid SIXTY DAMNED YEARS AGO!!! And on the subject of the 1950s tax structure, a meme I read frequently in this forum that the rich paid a 90% tax rate. Actually, that number was a marginal tax rate. Here's an article from the leftist hacks at Politifact which takes up the issue.

Quote
The top marginal tax rates peaked in 1952 and 1953 at 92 percent for income over $300,000.

Bob Williams of the Tax Policy Center did some math for us to give this some perspective.

In 1952 and 1953, Williams said, when the top income tax rate was 92 percent for income over $300,000, a person would have to make waaaay more than $300,000 to actually end up paying an average of 90 percent of their income. According to Williams, someone would have to make $2,328,400, and therefore pay $2,095,560, to get to that 90 percent threshold.

But people with income of less than $2.3 million — remember we're talking about 1952 and 1953 — would have paid, on average, something less than 90 percent, and perhaps much less
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/oct/02/michael-moore/michael-moores-film-capitalism-claims-richest-paid/

We won't talk about how many tax breaks were available back then, which if I recall was the impetus for the AMT.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 08:10:17 pm by guido911 » Logged

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nathanm
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2011, 08:41:11 pm »

a meme I read frequently in this forum that the rich paid a 90% tax rate. Actually, that number was a marginal tax rate. Here's an article from the leftist hacks at Politifact which takes up the issue.
That may be what you read, but I've never written that, and I haven't seen anyone here refer to that number as anything but the top [marginal] rate.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 08:43:07 pm by nathanm » Logged

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
nathanm
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2011, 08:45:46 pm »

How long ago was your divorce from reality final?
I have yet to be divorced from reality. That seems to be what most frustrates you about my posts. Tongue (hard data is reality, my friend)

But Guido is right, I have never been the CEO of a public company. I doubt he has either, but whatever. At least I understand the concept of supply and demand. Without demand, there will be no increase in supply, so we'll continue to have a jobs problem.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
BKDotCom
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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2011, 09:08:06 pm »

http://gizmodo.com/5827468/the-pentagon-spends-more-money-fixing-rusty-old-smile-than-canada-spends-on-its-entire-military
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guido911
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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2011, 09:13:52 pm »

That may be what you read, but I've never written that, and I haven't seen anyone here refer to that number as anything but the top [marginal] rate.

Here's a thread:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=15448.0
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