A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 28, 2022, 12:22:27 am
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 ... 44   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Any new midtown/Cherry Street developments?  (Read 252689 times)
patric
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7857


These Aren't the Droids You're Looking For


« Reply #195 on: November 15, 2016, 10:40:55 am »

There will be a meeting about 15th Street Rehabilitation between Peoria and Lewis (aka, Cherry Street) next Monday, November 21, 6:00 pm, at Christ the King Church.  There also will be a discussion of multi-modal street plans and public transportation.  Cherry Street could be a real jewel if done correctly.  The sidewalks on Cherry Street proper (Peoria to Utica) are wonky and disconnected based on how it developed over time.  Now that it is without question a major attraction, it needs proper streetscaping with wide sidewalks, trees, and protected cross walks.  A bike lane would be awesome too.  We need a good showing of people to say that they walk and bike consistently in that area to convince them to get it right.  Please consider attending.



Although Ill still be at work at that time, Id love to come and convince them to break the cycle of Bad Acorns.

In a nutshell,  Acorn streetlights are decorative street furniture that do a poor job of lighting streets (at least at the brightness we expect today).
If you are really in love with them, make them a decorative intensity (1000 Lumens-ish) and do the actual job of lighting streets with low-glare, shielded streetlights mounted higher up.

...and LED lighting doesnt have to be garish.  Warm White LEDs are a better choice if you want to make an area look more inviting.
Logged

"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
DowntownDan
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1004


« Reply #196 on: November 15, 2016, 10:45:06 am »

Although Ill still be at work at that time, Id love to come and convince them to break the cycle of Bad Acorns.

In a nutshell,  Acorn streetlights are decorative street furniture that do a poor job of lighting streets (at least at the brightness we expect today).
If you are really in love with them, make them a decorative intensity (1000 Lumens-ish) and do the actual job of lighting streets with low-glare, shielded streetlights mounted higher up.

...and LED lighting doesnt have to be garish.  Warm White LEDs are a better choice if you want to make an area look more inviting.

I would be happy to raise this issue on your behalf if you could write up a summary.  I know you have been pressing this for a long time and I agree with you.  I live off of Cherry Street and I want this to be done right.
Logged
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4677


WWW
« Reply #197 on: November 15, 2016, 10:50:05 am »

That's great news that they are starting to plan for a better streetscape.  I agree with you on new sidewalks, trees , crosswalks and lighting but not sure 15th needs a bike lane unless they removed the angled parking (not likely).  
Logged

 
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #198 on: November 15, 2016, 12:36:20 pm »



There will be a meeting about 15th Street Rehabilitation between Peoria and Lewis (aka, Cherry Street) next Monday, November 21, 6:00 pm, at Christ the King Church.  There also will be a discussion of multi-modal street plans and public transportation.  Cherry Street could be a real jewel if done correctly.  The sidewalks on Cherry Street proper (Peoria to Utica) are wonky and disconnected based on how it developed over time.  Now that it is without question a major attraction, it needs proper streetscaping with wide sidewalks, trees, and protected cross walks.  A bike lane would be awesome too.  We need a good showing of people to say that they walk and bike consistently in that area to convince them to get it right.  Please consider attending.


Thanks, I will consider attending the meeting.

But M.B. Cherry Street between Peoria and Utica is already very lively with pedestrian traffic.  I doubt if the City's standard "streetscaping" designs (glaring acorn lights, rough sidewalks and crosswalks which aren't ADA-compliant, huge and hideous traffic signal control boxes) will improve the current situation.  Brookside was worsened by one of these "improvement" projects, and I dread to think what might be in the works for 15th Street.
 
Logged
patric
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7857


These Aren't the Droids You're Looking For


« Reply #199 on: November 15, 2016, 01:39:11 pm »

I would be happy to raise this issue on your behalf if you could write up a summary.  I know you have been pressing this for a long time and I agree with you.  I live off of Cherry Street and I want this to be done right.

Id be pleased to do that.  Will PM you later, but its apparent others here would like to discuss this as well.
Logged

"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
Tulsasaurus Rex
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 301


« Reply #200 on: November 15, 2016, 01:55:18 pm »

Brookside was worsened by one of these "improvement" projects

Can you elaborate please?
Logged
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4677


WWW
« Reply #201 on: November 15, 2016, 02:35:35 pm »

I disagree about Brookside.  While it could have been better it still was an improvement.  They need to redo the crosswalks and have more traffic calming barriers though.  The intersection at 36th needs work.  And extend the streetscape south toward 41st.
Logged

 
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #202 on: November 15, 2016, 05:46:58 pm »



They need to redo the crosswalks...


Which crosswalks in Brookside need to be redone?  And how do they need to be redone?  What's wrong with them as they are now?


...and have more traffic calming barriers...


What type of traffic calming barriers, and why?  What's wrong with the traffic now?


The intersection at 36th needs work.


What is wrong with the existing intersection at 36th?

Logged
SXSW
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4677


WWW
« Reply #203 on: November 15, 2016, 07:13:59 pm »

Bamboo - I think they should have extend the landscaped median in place from 35th to 33rd all the way to 36th.  That way when you're in the crosswalk you can wait in the median and it helps to calm traffic.  The pavers could also be redone or just paint the crosswalks a darker color.  Also adding signs like this could help both on Peoria and also 15th:


Logged

 
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #204 on: November 15, 2016, 08:24:13 pm »



Can you elaborate please?


Poorly designed sidewalks, curb ramps, and crosswalks, such as those here at 41st Street

How is a blind pedestrian supposed to know where the crosswalks are?

Why is the street drainage designed so water collects at the crosswalks?

Why is there a pole in the middle of a curb ramp? 

Why are there push buttons for pedestrians mounted above the curb ramp instead of a more level surface?

Why are there push buttons for pedestrians at all?  (Why should pedestrians be required to request to cross a street?)

Why are rough pavers used on both the curb ramps and in the crosswalks?  (How do rough walking surfaces facilitate the safe passage of pedestrians?  Wheelchairs?  People using canes or walkers or pushing strollers?  Blind or visually impaired pedestrians?  Motor vehicles?)

----

Poorly designed sidewalks, curb ramps, crosswalks, curbs, planting areas, and plantings such as those at 33rd Place.

Why are small broadleaf evergreens planted instead of deciduous shade trees along the sidewalk?

What's the purpose of the center median?

What's the purpose of the poorly maintained planting area below the tree?

What's the purpose of the pavement marking paint on the curb ramps? 


------------

M.B. Cherry Street has already gotten some "streetscaping" work, fairly recently.  Here's an example at St. Louis Ave:

July 2011 view

Note how the curb ramps are paired, so someone who couldn't handle a curb would be able to directly cross either north-south or east-west.  Note also how the curb ramp concrete at the corner appears newer than the sidewalk concrete.  I imagine it is newer, probably because the curb ramps replaced sidewalks with full height curbs all around the street corners.

Note also that the paired curb ramps have hot pink marking paint on them, indicating that the existing curb ramps are to be replaced with new "Type A" ramps.

By February 2014, the curb ramps shown in the July 2011 photo had been replaced.

The problem, as I see it, is that the new curb ramps are worse than what they replaced.  A single curb ramp, pointed toward the middle of an intersection, is not very useful for a blind pedestrian or anyone confined to a wheelchair.  The new curb ramps should have been paired as the old curb ramps were, directing pedestrian into a crosswalk, not into the middle of the intersection -- something like the City of Tulsa's own Standard 790 for curb ramps.

Notice also that sometime between July 2011 and February 2014, a portion of the sidewalk along St. Louis had been removed and replaced with a strip of grass and some street trees.  I don't have a problem with the trees, or with the tables and chairs on the sidewalk, either.  But evidently, someone with the City of Tulsa does have an issue with sidewalk cafés on public sidewalks.

Those curb ramps can't be more than 5 and a half years old.  Do they need replacing already?  If so, why were they installed at all?  Some of the curb ramps in my neighborhood have been replaced several times in recent years, usually with designs which are inferior to what was replaced, and sometimes not compliant with the ADA.  Why? 

M.B. Cherry could be made more accessible to pedestrians with disabilities, but the City has actually made the situation worse in some instances.  The best way to make 15th more pedestrian friendly is to slow the vehicular traffic down and to protect people on the sidewalks.  The Downtown Coordinating Council has hired a walkability expert to study the downtown area, but the principles are the same on 15th, 11th, Peoria, etc.

- Keep traffic lanes narrow (10 feet)
- Allow on-street parking along the curbs
- Plant shade trees along the sidewalk, close to the curb lines

Many walkability improvements can be accomplished with paint, which is relatively inexpensive compared to moving curbs, relocating utilities, installing pavers, or changing grades/drainage structures.

Logged
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #205 on: November 15, 2016, 08:36:50 pm »



Bamboo - I think they should have extend the landscaped median in place from 35th to 33rd all the way to 36th.  That way when you're in the crosswalk you can wait in the median and it helps to calm traffic.  The pavers could also be redone or just paint the crosswalks a darker color.  Also adding signs like this could help both on Peoria and also 15th:



I understand the median, to a point.  A better protection for pedestrians is curbside parking, however. 

What's wrong with the existing crosswalk pavers?  Why do they need to be redone (again)? 

Crosswalks, when painted, should be a contrasting, highly visible color.  Reflective white would be the best on relatively darker asphalt.
Logged
johrasephoenix
Guest
« Reply #206 on: November 15, 2016, 09:04:12 pm »

Those pedestrian crossing signs are really helpful.  In Cambridge/Boston they have crosswalks with those signs on a FOUR LANE STATE HIGHWAY every 30 yards or so, including a bunch that aren't even at a stoplight.  You can be on one side of the street, decide you want to cross (not at an intersection), and off you go stopping traffic going both ways.  It's awesome.  They even have bike lanes on MA-2A and lo! nobody dies, traffic goes slow, and pedestrians are milling around everywhere off a friggin' highway.  

Crazy, right?  We can't even slow down Peoria.    They have purposefully de-emphasized car-centric design on MA-2A and when you're driving you know you're second place to pedestrians and bikers.  

Even Brookside isn't that great in the scheme of pedestrian friendly places.  Cars are travelling way too fast and and there are too few crossing points.  In fact, the lack of crossing points is a problem across Tulsa.  As a pedestrian it is extremely dangerous trying to cross Peoria/Lewis/Harvard/Yale/etc and it only gets worse the further south  you go.  

« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 09:07:34 pm by johrasephoenix » Logged
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #207 on: November 16, 2016, 06:30:33 pm »



Those pedestrian crossing signs are really helpful.  In Cambridge/Boston they have crosswalks with those signs on a FOUR LANE STATE HIGHWAY every 30 yards or so, including a bunch that aren't even at a stoplight.  You can be on one side of the street, decide you want to cross (not at an intersection), and off you go stopping traffic going both ways.  It's awesome...


...and handy for making a delivery of gluten-free sorghum malt beer:

1. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3910129,-71.1222827,3a,15y,277.09h,87.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNJruZIjNO5ZDfbpYPeeB7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

2. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3910611,-71.1223851,3a,15y,271.51h,86.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skCRJeUJuWXVfcqGiUtk33g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

3. Heading for the low spot in the center median: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3911272,-71.1225203,3a,75y,259.78h,87.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBA8G79fJbFOqYeChvX_V0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

4. Nearly to the narrow sliver of refuge in the middle of the street: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3911869,-71.1226408,3a,90y,226.42h,89.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4z78n0vk8TYMPHBjW4Vd2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

5. A small hurdle to overcome (but we can almost taste victory at this point):  https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3912425,-71.1227634,3a,39.6y,178.76h,86.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sESTdTOLDiASAwo6ivY1KtA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

6. A display of true stamina by crossing an 18-foot-wide lane ON A DIAGONAL !  Eat your heart out, Hillary.  https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3912556,-71.1227902,3a,89.2y,152.29h,88.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPcmCYHTl0-QEVj00Ek9D4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Logged
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #208 on: November 16, 2016, 07:47:19 pm »



Those pedestrian crossing signs are really helpful.


I agree.  There are a number of pedestrian crossing signs along 15th between Peoria and Utica already:

For eastbound traffic:
1. between Peoria and Quaker
2. at Quaker
3. at Quincy
4. at Rockford
5. at St. Louis
6. at Trenton
7. at Troost

For westbound traffic:
8. at Troost
9. at Trenton
10. at St. Louis
11. at Rockford
12. at Quincy
13. at Quaker

Do you think there need to be more signs?  Different signs (mentioning state law requiring yielding to pedestrians)?

I try to be very cautious when driving along 15th, because pedestrians seem to dart out from behind parked cars in many locations, not only marked crosswalks.  Additional crosswalks with signs might be a good idea at several mid-block locations, especially at the hump between Trenton and Troost.


...We can't even slow down Peoria...


I disagree.  The vehicular traffic on many streets could be slowed down.  Lanes could be narrowed and/or eliminated.  Parking at the curb could be allowed.  Protected bike lanes could be added.  More signs such as the one SXSW posted could be moved to various locations as needed (as they appear to be relatively inexpensive and portable).

And many of these changes could be done with paint.


...Cherry Street could be a real jewel if done correctly.  The sidewalks on Cherry Street proper (Peoria to Utica) are wonky and disconnected based on how it developed over time.  Now that it is without question a major attraction, it needs proper streetscaping with wide sidewalks, trees, and protected cross walks...


I think it depends on what "proper streetscaping" means.  In my opinion, shade trees along the sidewalks would be wonderful.  Acorn lights and rough pavements on sidewalks/crosswalks would be a waste of money.  The sidewalks are little bit disconnected and wonky, but not terribly so.  I walk and drive along 15th often, but I don't bike there much anymore.  To me, the street seems fairly successful as it is.  

The City has missed opportunities to provide good curb ramps and has failed to follow best practices and City of Tulsa standards.  A recent example is the curb ramp on the Noodles & Company corner at Trenton.  The new curb ramp there, less than six months old, has detectable warning pavement, but it's not aligned with the crosswalk.  It would have been easy for the City to build it correctly, but it was done wrong, as is the case over and over and over again in various neighborhoods in Tulsa.

In general, the straighter and wider and more numerous the vehicular traffic lanes, the less safe it is for pedestrians.  The larger the curb radii at corners, the less safe it is for pedestrians.  

What are "protected" crosswalks?

« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 07:53:56 pm by Bamboo World » Logged
Tulsasaurus Rex
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 301


« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2016, 10:20:07 am »

Notice also that sometime between July 2011 and February 2014, a portion of the sidewalk along St. Louis had been removed and replaced with a strip of grass and some street trees.  I don't have a problem with the trees, or with the tables and chairs on the sidewalk, either.  But evidently, someone with the City of Tulsa does have an issue with sidewalk cafés on public sidewalks.

Wow, you're right. The sidewalk tables and chairs at the La Madeleine disappear between February 2014 and January 2016. That sucks. My family and I had eaten at those tables and it was enjoyable. How can someone have a problem with sidewalk cafes?

Speaking of negative changes just at that intersection of Cherry and St. Louis, why were the bike racks in front of Full Moon Cafe removed between April 2014 and January of 2016? That seems like big step backwards. Was it because someone thought that was a lane and ran over them?
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 ... 44   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org