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Author Topic: Stop building new prisons in Oklahoma  (Read 58088 times)
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #135 on: October 31, 2018, 12:44:11 pm »

$1.57 billion budget the DOC is requesting is about $500 per citizen of Oklahoma and 20% of the entire state budget!

It is about $980 per tax-filer and around $1,500 per state-income tax payer. That is a tremendous amount of tax dollars per capita. We have more prisoners than New Jersey which has more than 9 million residents! Oklahoma is #1 in incarcerations per capita. We have more incarcerated than Vermont, DC, ND, RI, Wyoming, Maine, Alaska, New Hampshire, Hawaii and Montana combined!

This is the end-game of our state's policies along with our culture (Go drug war! Screw education! Abandon cities and exodus to the 'burbs! We're tough on crime!). If you keep cutting education, you'll pay for it eventually with higher crime and fuller prisons. Time to decriminalize as much as we can and forgive non-violent offenders (which is a very small percentage of criminals though).

Time to work on educating criminals with real skills they can use like plumbing, electrician certs, HVAC, auto-mechanic, etc... Let's be honest that most won't be able to or want to become business professionals. It's so much cheaper and better long term to just have a trade and work for honest wages.

https://medium.com/@Chris_Powell/drew-edmondson-oklahomas-chief-jailer-da1308feec35

All of this and yet property crimes and theft are completely out of control with virtually no viable and reasonable punishment for habitual law breakers. People flagrantly steal because there's no real deterrent, even if they are caught. This is a huge deeply embedded societal problem that keeps getting worse the more the government tries to fix it. We need to look to Kansas/Colorado and see what they've done to curb crime AND keep a very small prison population compared to the region.
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swake
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« Reply #136 on: October 31, 2018, 01:19:53 pm »

$1.57 billion budget the DOC is requesting is about $500 per citizen of Oklahoma and 20% of the entire state budget!

It is about $980 per tax-filer and around $1,500 per state-income tax payer. That is a tremendous amount of tax dollars per capita. We have more prisoners than New Jersey which has more than 9 million residents! Oklahoma is #1 in incarcerations per capita. We have more incarcerated than Vermont, DC, ND, RI, Wyoming, Maine, Alaska, New Hampshire, Hawaii and Montana combined!

This is the end-game of our state's policies along with our culture (Go drug war! Screw education! Abandon cities and exodus to the 'burbs! We're tough on crime!). If you keep cutting education, you'll pay for it eventually with higher crime and fuller prisons. Time to decriminalize as much as we can and forgive non-violent offenders (which is a very small percentage of criminals though).

Time to work on educating criminals with real skills they can use like plumbing, electrician certs, HVAC, auto-mechanic, etc... Let's be honest that most won't be able to or want to become business professionals. It's so much cheaper and better long term to just have a trade and work for honest wages.

https://medium.com/@Chris_Powell/drew-edmondson-oklahomas-chief-jailer-da1308feec35

All of this and yet property crimes and theft are completely out of control with virtually no viable and reasonable punishment for habitual law breakers. People flagrantly steal because there's no real deterrent, even if they are caught. This is a huge deeply embedded societal problem that keeps getting worse the more the government tries to fix it. We need to look to Kansas/Colorado and see what they've done to curb crime AND keep a very small prison population compared to the region.

We don't just have the highest incarceration rate in the United States, we are highest in the world. We're number 1?
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #137 on: October 31, 2018, 02:01:27 pm »

We don't just have the highest incarceration rate in the United States, we are highest in the world. We're number 1?

True, the US is #1 in that by a wide margin so I guess that's a given (but still mind-boggling) that Oklahoma is the #1 incarcerating government on planet earth!

7.6 billion people and hundreds of governments, but Oklahoma has risen to #1, defying all odds!
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #138 on: October 31, 2018, 04:57:46 pm »

True, the US is #1 in that by a wide margin so I guess that's a given (but still mind-boggling) that Oklahoma is the #1 incarcerating government on planet earth!

7.6 billion people and hundreds of governments, but Oklahoma has risen to #1, defying all odds!



Keep voting Republicontin - keep getting same results.

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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« Reply #139 on: November 01, 2018, 11:54:25 am »

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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #140 on: November 01, 2018, 12:06:08 pm »



Keep voting Republicontin - keep getting same results.



But Kansas has far lower incarceration rates but is also a strongly republican state (Same for Utah, one of the lowest). There is more at work than just R vs D. That link showed that Drew Edmonson (D) was a big part of increasing incarceration rates and instrumental in getting private prisons going. He could've pushed for reform and at least tried to stifle that.

It's a tough situation and I don't see any easy way to fix it. Education is typically the best thing to fix it but not a cure all. The economy and society have to function also. The issues with society are pretty deep. Education and better job stability can fix some but that always creates others. Cities are the hubs for regional issues too (homelessness, crime, poverty).

At this point the only thing they can do is start releasing prisoners and decriminalize anything they can. We voted to lower crimes for that but results of those changes haven't quite kicked in. Oklahoma is definitely in an incarceration crisis and yet crime rates remain ridiculously high. So locking up =/= lowering crime.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #141 on: November 01, 2018, 12:32:58 pm »



Yep!  Embarrassed

Nothing infuriates me more about Oklahoma than the combination of extremely high crime rates and the #1 incarceration rate in the world (and those can be directly attributed to education and government action). It's almost as angering as the DAs like Tim Harris or Edmonson who have been flaunting their "tough on crime" stance for decades as we climbed right up the chart in both categories. It's nonsense and they have failed us.

The DA's are political offices used specifically to gain popularity for bigger offices. Maybe that's the problem. The things that get attention "locking up criminals", "drugs on the table" or punishing crimes, are not what it takes to actually fix the real issues. These people need rehabilitation and a path to contribute to society. Our leaders have got to do it better because we are the absolute worst in the world right now. Anyone with any kind of capability should be able to improve this so I'm not optimistic.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #142 on: November 01, 2018, 03:04:09 pm »

But Kansas has far lower incarceration rates but is also a strongly republican state (Same for Utah, one of the lowest). There is more at work than just R vs D. That link showed that Drew Edmonson (D) was a big part of increasing incarceration rates and instrumental in getting private prisons going. He could've pushed for reform and at least tried to stifle that.

It's a tough situation and I don't see any easy way to fix it. Education is typically the best thing to fix it but not a cure all. The economy and society have to function also. The issues with society are pretty deep. Education and better job stability can fix some but that always creates others. Cities are the hubs for regional issues too (homelessness, crime, poverty).

At this point the only thing they can do is start releasing prisoners and decriminalize anything they can. We voted to lower crimes for that but results of those changes haven't quite kicked in. Oklahoma is definitely in an incarceration crisis and yet crime rates remain ridiculously high. So locking up =/= lowering crime.



Whew!  Exactly which history book did you get that from??   When Frank Keating took office (1995), we spent $0 dollars on private prisons.  Two years later, we were spending $60+ million per year on them.  (That was also where Mary Failin' got her education as Lt Gov.)   His closer personal friend, J Michael Quinlan, was with Corrections Corporation of America, and recommended to get some private prisons.

And don't forget the $250,000 Keating received to promote the use of Dilantin in the prisons.

Your link is typical deflection, dissemination, distortion, and outright fabrication.  Edmondoson never had the power to pass a law or issue an executive order or any of the REAL things required to pursue a policy that leads to mass incarceration.  He was in position to enforce Oklahoma law.  And that he did.  To the full extent the ignorance of the time dictated - and has 'doubled down' on since.  And now we are where we are - getting worse every year in the state on a wide variety of issues.  Scott Pruitt was there from 2011 until he took his corruption train to DC, and 'stepped up' the efforts for even more Psychosis in Government.   Along with Failin' and the Clown Show Legislature.





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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #143 on: November 01, 2018, 03:10:21 pm »



At this point the only thing they can do is start releasing prisoners and decriminalize anything they can. We voted to lower crimes for that but results of those changes haven't quite kicked in. Oklahoma is definitely in an incarceration crisis and yet crime rates remain ridiculously high. So locking up =/= lowering crime.




Both things I have ranted about since at least the mid 60's.  We are insane in this state.  Have been for a long time.

And those crime rates being high - well, that lies directly at the feet of the War on Drugs.  All other areas are at par.  Like most of the wars we have fought for decades, that one is immoral, unethical, intellectually dishonest, illogical, disingenuous, and nonviable.   And yet, every OK politician (and many national) talks about being "tough on crime".   



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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #144 on: November 02, 2018, 10:33:08 am »



Whew!  Exactly which history book did you get that from??   When Frank Keating took office (1995), we spent $0 dollars on private prisons.  Two years later, we were spending $60+ million per year on them.  (That was also where Mary Failin' got her education as Lt Gov.)   His closer personal friend, J Michael Quinlan, was with Corrections Corporation of America, and recommended to get some private prisons.

And don't forget the $250,000 Keating received to promote the use of Dilantin in the prisons.

Your link is typical deflection, dissemination, distortion, and outright fabrication.  Edmondoson never had the power to pass a law or issue an executive order or any of the REAL things required to pursue a policy that leads to mass incarceration.  He was in position to enforce Oklahoma law.  And that he did.  To the full extent the ignorance of the time dictated - and has 'doubled down' on since.  And now we are where we are - getting worse every year in the state on a wide variety of issues.  Scott Pruitt was there from 2011 until he took his corruption train to DC, and 'stepped up' the efforts for even more Psychosis in Government.   Along with Failin' and the Clown Show Legislature.


Edmonson was against MMJ until the  most recent vote passed and said it's the will of the people. He's been a fan of the drug war. He could've used his influence to stand for reform but went with the way things were for decades, not standing up or speaking out that change was needed. He was involved with getting private prisons going. Those directly incentivize those corporations to do what they can (especially politically) to boost incarceration rates.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #145 on: November 02, 2018, 12:41:56 pm »

Edmonson was against MMJ until the  most recent vote passed and said it's the will of the people. He's been a fan of the drug war. He could've used his influence to stand for reform but went with the way things were for decades, not standing up or speaking out that change was needed. He was involved with getting private prisons going. Those directly incentivize those corporations to do what they can (especially politically) to boost incarceration rates.


Deflection alert!   You said, "That link showed that Drew Edmonson (D) was a big part of increasing incarceration rates and instrumental in getting private prisons going. He could've pushed for reform and at least tried to stifle that."

I called BS and showed EXACTLY who was the big part of increasing incarceration rates and instrumental in getting private prisons going.   And it was NOT Edmondson.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
patric
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« Reply #146 on: November 04, 2018, 08:54:19 am »

Oklahomans have voted for criminal justice reform and remain eager for it, but the system may not be responding to those changes the way the public expected.

That is suggested by polling conducted on behalf of reform advocate Fwd.us and preliminary data from the Oklahoma Department of Corrections for fiscal year 2018, which ended June 30 — one year after the effective date of landmark State Questions 780 and 781.

Oklahoma has some of the highest incarceration rates in the world, which in 2016 prompted voters to approve the two measures. SQ 780 reclassifies many nonviolent crimes, including simple possession of marijuana, from felonies to misdemeanors. SQ 781 provides for funding of community-based addiction treatment.

The intent was to lower or at least control the state’s burgeoning prison population and reduce the number of Oklahomans with felony convictions, which can make finding and keeping a job and generally staying on the straight and narrow more difficult.

But DOC data shows inductions into the state prison system increased 11 percent during that first year of SQs 780 and 781, and that while admissions for simple possession of marijuana declined, those for intent to distribute rose 20 percent.

Kris Steele, chairman of Oklahomans for Criminal Justice Reform, and Todd Schulte, president of Fwd.us, said it appears some prosecutors are charging offenders who previously would have been cited for simple possession with more serious crimes, such as intent to distribute or child endangerment.

“This is relatively common (nationally),” Schulte said.

“People continue to want (reform) to happen,” he said, “but some district attorneys continue to push hard against these changes.”

Jenny Proehl-Day, who is challenging District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler in Tuesday’s general election, says Kunzweiler is one of those resisting decriminalization.

Kunzweiler said that’s not true.

“I would challenge the assertion that there is some effort to circumvent (SQ) 780,” he said. “I would suspect that if people are going to prison, a component of that might be that we’ve made a decision to get very aggressive after the drug dealers in the community because of the violence that was associated with that was spiking our homicide rate.”

The Fwd.us-commissioned survey, conducted by nationally known firm Public Opinion Strategies, gives reform advocates some leverage. It shows large majorities of Oklahomans continue to support criminal justice reform.

The survey found 83 percent of Oklahomans believe reducing the number of people behind bars is important, and 72 percent said the criminal justice system needs “significant improvement.”

Three-quarters said people convicted of nonviolent felonies who have since been reduced to misdemeanors should have their sentences reduced accordingly.

“People want to see (reform) enacted,” Schulte said. “That’s very clear.”

Steele said admissions into the prison system continued to rise in the first year under SQ 780 because some people charged with simple possession before the July 1, 2017, effective date were still in the pipeline. Others, he said, went to prison because they violated the terms of their supervised release.

Steele said a legislative agenda is still being formulated, but it will almost certainly include legislation to specify conditions for an intent to distribute charge. Under current law, that decision is entirely up to the prosecutor.

Another likely priority will be making SQ 780’s reclassification of some felonies retroactive.

“It’s going to take time to see the full impact and the full benefit (of reform),” Steele said. “We did have a 25 percent reduction in felony filings. That means there are 25 percent fewer people walking around with a scarlet letter on their record.”


https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/state/oklahomans-still-ardently-support-criminal-justice-reform-as-system-proves/article_af745d6b-04a3-5fff-83d9-68d546fc7e8a.html


Ironically, police and prosecutors cite 780 and 781 as justification to sidestep the new medical marijuana law.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #147 on: November 06, 2018, 12:31:49 pm »


Deflection alert!   You said, "That link showed that Drew Edmonson (D) was a big part of increasing incarceration rates and instrumental in getting private prisons going. He could've pushed for reform and at least tried to stifle that."

I called BS and showed EXACTLY who was the big part of increasing incarceration rates and instrumental in getting private prisons going.   And it was NOT Edmondson.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt...



You're as bad as anyone else with the "GO TEAM RED!!!" "GO TEAM BLUE!!!" arguments who see the splinter in the other sides eye and ignores the plank in their guy's eye.

Most all politicians have had their hands in the dirt. Glad you don't have red glasses on, but you need to take off the blue colored glasses. Edmonson is not perfect. Tax & spend democrats had control of this state for many decades and didn't do much better.

See how one of our former tax and spend democrat governors Boren did with financials as OU's president:
http://www.newson6.com/story/39234366/ou-president-says-he-is-determined-to-fix-the-universitys-overspending

The main advantage to a democrat as governor is that they can veto the crazy bills the legislature puts out to keep them in check (but that means that just about nothing will get done). At some point someone has to own up to the fact we need to spend less than what we have and should be saving as well. Will Edmonson be able to actually tax the ultra-wealthy or big oil? Not without a super-majority in the legislature. So we will continue the same path where the common people subsidize the wealthy and barely keep up with paying the bills.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #148 on: November 07, 2018, 08:41:10 am »

You're as bad as anyone else with the "GO TEAM RED!!!" "GO TEAM BLUE!!!" arguments who see the splinter in the other sides eye and ignores the plank in their guy's eye.

Most all politicians have had their hands in the dirt. Glad you don't have red glasses on, but you need to take off the blue colored glasses. Edmonson is not perfect. Tax & spend democrats had control of this state for many decades and didn't do much better.

See how one of our former tax and spend democrat governors Boren did with financials as OU's president:
http://www.newson6.com/story/39234366/ou-president-says-he-is-determined-to-fix-the-universitys-overspending

The main advantage to a democrat as governor is that they can veto the crazy bills the legislature puts out to keep them in check (but that means that just about nothing will get done). At some point someone has to own up to the fact we need to spend less than what we have and should be saving as well. Will Edmonson be able to actually tax the ultra-wealthy or big oil? Not without a super-majority in the legislature. So we will continue the same path where the common people subsidize the wealthy and barely keep up with paying the bills.


You haven't read all of my comments have you - I am much more moderate than what you seem to 'see'.  Go back and look at my replies (attacks) on the left with their gun control BS.

Now into projection, I see...

True - Gene Stipe (Dem) was a master of getting a vastly disproportionate share of state money for his area.   And he, of course, got his fair share of "consulting fees" from lobbyists and organizations.  As did Charlie Ford (Rep) at about the same time.  They knew how to work with each other for the good of themselves...and sometimes even the good of the state!


And now we have the next Mary Failin' clone to carry on her bad tradition!!   "Go Team Stupid.!!"   Or "Go Team Vote For The Guy Whose Business Practices Get Him Banned For Life In Georgia!"

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I don’t share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #149 on: November 07, 2018, 10:20:13 am »


You haven't read all of my comments have you - I am much more moderate than what you seem to 'see'.  Go back and look at my replies (attacks) on the left with their gun control BS.

Now into projection, I see...

True - Gene Stipe (Dem) was a master of getting a vastly disproportionate share of state money for his area.   And he, of course, got his fair share of "consulting fees" from lobbyists and organizations.  As did Charlie Ford (Rep) at about the same time.  They knew how to work with each other for the good of themselves...and sometimes even the good of the state!


And now we have the next Mary Failin' clone to carry on her bad tradition!!   "Go Team Stupid.!!"   Or "Go Team Vote For The Guy Whose Business Practices Get Him Banned For Life In Georgia!"



Bernie Sanders has been one of the most liberal congressmen/Senators for decades and he is all about gun rights as are most of his constituents in Vermont.  


Quote
"Go Team Vote For The Guy Whose Business Practices Get Him Banned For Life In Georgia!"

Funny you say that because Gateway Mortgage is not banned from Georgia or any other states. That was the biggest negative I heard about Stitt... which is an attack on his billion-dollar company that he founded himself. Please find me a billion dollar company that has had zero mishaps or run-ins with regulations, especially with 1,300+ employees in 41 states in a highly-regulated industry.


Quote
Oklahoma Republican gubernatorial candidate Kevin Stitt had no direct role in actions that led to a 2009 consent agreement barring Stitt and his company, Gateway Mortgage Group, from doing business in Georgia, according to Gateway General Counsel Scott Gesell.

The ban on Gateway was permanent, while Stitt agreed not to do business in Georgia for five years.

“There were no findings that involved Kevin,” Gesell said. “He’s free to do business there now.

Gesell said the Georgia Department of Banking found several violations of state law in a routine 2008 examination. The violations were by staff in the Georgia office, and primarily involved noncompliant background checks and “misrepresentations” of whether the houses being mortgaged would be owner-occupied.

The employees involved were dismissed as a result of the examination, Gesell said.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/gateway-problems-in-georgia-did-not-directly-involve-kevin-stitt/article_649fe782-22e4-5544-bb17-35fe38815cb5.html

Quote
The AP reviewed actions taken in both states and found the company’s license was only suspended in Georgia in 2009, amid allegations that the company made false statements and misrepresented facts to lenders, according to documents from the state’s banking agency. In June, Stitt and Gateway reached an agreement with Georgia regulators that the company can reapply for a license at any time.

http://www.tribtown.com/2018/11/01/us-election-2018-oklahoma-governor-fact-check/?fbclid=IwAR0JgvC-Fy3Zn3vFsU012QifxDZUgokn4lMARImvbqxmsX99bAZJD3gvLJA
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