Capping the IDL

[nathanm]

Trollies may have let people live slightly farther away, but it was mainly the car that let people live all the way out in Sapulpa or Glenpool and work in Tulsa.

I think 2-4 miles from the downtown core was what the streetcars opened up.

The recent construction has proven reasonably well that removing the east leg of the IDL would not be such a wise idea, at least not without significantly increasing capacity on the remaining parts, which will only make them even more of a barrier. And make no mistake, a fast, wide boulevard is also a significant pedestrian deterrent.

[Red Arrow]

Trollies may have let people live slightly farther away, but it was mainly the car that let people live all the way out in Sapulpa or Glenpool and work in Tulsa.

I think 2-4 miles from the downtown core was what the streetcars opened up.

The recent construction has proven reasonably well that removing the east leg of the IDL would not be such a wise idea, at least not without significantly increasing capacity on the remaining parts, which will only make them even more of a barrier. And make no mistake, a fast, wide boulevard is also a significant pedestrian deterrent.

At first, you only needed to be a mile or two away.  Anyway at least around Tulsa a mile or two would do.  You are probably forgetting that the trolleys ran to both Sapulpa and Sand Springs. 

I was also thinking of where I grew up near Phila, PA.  There the trolleys ran 15 to 20 miles out of the city.  Not sure about the distances from NYC or Boston but I'm reasonably sure the rail systems there were not all built in the last 50 years. 

It's been years since I've been there but I remember Roosevelt Blvd in Philly as no place for pedestrians.

[nathanm]

I was also thinking of where I grew up near Phila, PA.  There the trolleys ran 15 to 20 miles out of the city.  Not sure about the distances from NYC or Boston but I'm reasonably sure the rail systems there were not all built in the last 50 years. 

The difference is, that in the Northeast, the streetcars, trolleys, and trains were mostly used because it wasn't physically and financially possible to stuff more people into the area (tall buildings are expensive), rather than to the end of suburban sprawl, as became the norm later on.

In other parts of the country where they came later, they were used more to spread people out rather than continue the dense growth beyond what was reasonable to get around as a pedestrian.

[Red Arrow]

The difference is, that in the Northeast, the streetcars, trolleys, and trains were mostly used because it wasn't physically and financially possible to stuff more people into the area (tall buildings are expensive), rather than to the end of suburban sprawl, as became the norm later on.

In other parts of the country where they came later, they were used more to spread people out rather than continue the dense growth beyond what was reasonable to get around as a pedestrian.

The Phila area trolleys/light rail were originally set up to provide better transportation to outlying towns:  Media; the county seat of Delaware county, West Chester; county seat of Chester county, Norristown; county seat of Montgomery county (although the original route was planned to be competition for the PA RR main line to Harrisburg).  In the case of West Chester, the trolley replaced a toll road.   TOD followed.  Some of the development was nearly as dense as Phila.  The farther out, the less dense.

Sorry to keep harping on Phila but I spent my first 20 years in the area so I have an interest in its history and actually remember some of it first-hand.

[nathanm]

Sorry to keep harping on Phila but I spent my first 20 years in the area so I have an interest in its history and actually remember some of it first-hand.

It's good to have folks who know what they're talking about.

Perhaps my generalization of NYC to the rest of the northeast was premature. One must also keep in mind the much larger size of cities these days. There has been a lot of consolidation, and what were then considered far away towns are often now part of the city itself. (as it is here in Tulsa, where several named places were absorbed into the city, even a few rather close to downtown)

[Red Arrow]

It's good to have folks who know what they're talking about.

Perhaps my generalization of NYC to the rest of the northeast was premature. One must also keep in mind the much larger size of cities these days. There has been a lot of consolidation, and what were then considered far away towns are often now part of the city itself. (as it is here in Tulsa, where several named places were absorbed into the city, even a few rather close to downtown)

Along some routes from Phila to the "burbs" the only way you know you have crossed a township boundary is the sign saying "Leaving..." or "Welcome to..."

[Red Arrow]

Well,  back to the thread.

There is little question that freeways have divided many cities.  It used to be (and still is in some cases) the RR tracks.  Ever hear of the expression "from the wrong side of the tracks"?   An easy way for pedestrians to cross would help to rejoin the segments.  I believe attractive pedestrian bridges could help.  I know others see them as less desirable and intimidating.  A caged in bridge about 10 ft wide is not what I have in mind although I believe that is better than nothing.

[DowntownDan]

I saw this in Dallas this weekend.  It's actually pretty neat.  I could see it working in Tulsa on the southside of downtown where Hwy 51 is already sunk and could be "capped" without having to create a tunnel from scratch.  It would also help the 18th and Boston corridor expand northward and to try and encourage some development in south downtown.  Of course, the most likely result would be that the "cap" would turn into surface parking for TCC and the churches.

[Hoss]

I saw this in Dallas this weekend.  It's actually pretty neat.  I could see it working in Tulsa on the southside of downtown where Hwy 51 is already sunk and could be "capped" without having to create a tunnel from scratch.  It would also help the 18th and Boston corridor expand northward and to try and encourage some development in south downtown.  Of course, the most likely result would be that the "cap" would turn into surface parking for TCC and the churches.

It also works well on the east end of downtown St. Louis, as I traveled there in March.  Especially right around the Arch.

[patric]

Milwaukee just completed several tunnels, some of which pass beneath downtown buildings