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November 24, 2017, 08:53:35 am
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Author Topic: Brady District  (Read 87570 times)
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #555 on: September 15, 2017, 11:17:56 am »

Are you kidding me? This is what people hate about "liberal"/"Left-wing" logic. If you don't like the liberal view, you are "racist", a "nazi" or "kkk". (On a side note, that kind of thought police is not truly liberal in any way). You have no logic to back up your claim, so you resort to ad hominem attacks (almost ironic, isn't it?).

There were many unpleasant things about Woody Guthrie. The man loved Stalin, even after it was apparent that Stalin was leading a mass genocide of his own people. Guthrie was a socialist/communist and that goes against what America is about just as much as facism does. Sure, you're free to have your own dumb views, but when they're as harmful and fringe as Guthrie's, they should not be glorified. Additionally, Guthrie said many racist things throughout his life. He was no saint.


I wasn't "glorifying" Guthrie.  What I have tried to do several times is point out the irony of how many people 'sing his praises' - so many of them not left wingers at all - without knowing what he really was all about.

And if you read my comment, in reply to TulsaBeMore's comment, "I've heard some people upset about Woody Guthrie - socialist, etc.",

it very clearly says, "That would be the deplorable Nazi and KKK parties."

Meaning, of course that the people most likely to be upset would be those two groups.   Slow down and read carefully.  You appear to be "listening" (reading) just to reply, rather than listening (reading) to hear.


Woody was no saint - never said he was.  He also pretty much left his kids while he was going off around the country on his mission.  One can speculate about whether he should have even been a father since he wasn't really great at it, but then we would not have Arlo - a very talented person.  And I bet Arlo and siblings would have some strong opinions on whether Woody should have had kids.

Woody was raised in one kind of household with a certain environment - obviously bigoted and racist.  But then he outgrew his upbringing and changed into something very different.  

I like his music and the principles espoused by much of his work - but not all.  I suspect I would not get along well with him on a personal basis...he was way wrong about too much stuff.

Interesting insights into Woody;

https://jagadees.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/woody-guthrie-the-musician/

From the article, an audience member wrote to him about a performance and the ensuing apparent epiphany, at about 25 years old;

And he gets a letter from a member of his listening audience the next day. And I know that letter by heart. I’ve seen it. He says, “You were getting along pretty well on your program tonight, until you announced your n***** blues. I’m a Negro, a young Negro in college. And I certainly resented your remark. No person or person of any intelligence uses that word over the radio today.” And that letter really hit Woody like a slap in the face. He was mortified. He apologized profusely on the air the next day. He made a big point of dramatically tearing out the song sheet from his notebook and tearing it to shreds and promising he would never use that word again. And as he later said, “I apologize to the Negro people for the frothings that I let slip out of the corners of my mouth.” So this is the beginning of his conversion, I suppose, to eventually becoming one of the most ardent champions and activists for racial equality.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 11:21:22 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

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erfalf
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« Reply #556 on: September 15, 2017, 11:20:56 am »

As long as Peter Mayo owns it, I don't believe the name will change.  I wouldn't put it past a subsequent owner.  It was originally Tulsa Municipal Theater (IIRC) so that's a pretty non-offensive historic name since there seem to be people wiff tender wittle feewings about things that happened a couple or three generations before they were even born.

Did the theater get the name simply because of it's location on that street? Or is Tate somehow tied to the theater in another way?
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swake
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« Reply #557 on: September 15, 2017, 11:40:48 am »

Did the theater get the name simply because of it's location on that street? Or is Tate somehow tied to the theater in another way?

I don't think that The Brady has anything to do with Tate Brady, he built Cains Ballroom IIRC, but not Brady.

I believe The Brady was originally called the Tulsa Municipal Hall and only became The Brady Theater when the city replaced it and sold it. Growing up it was "The Old Lady on Brady", but I don't know if that was an official name or not.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #558 on: September 15, 2017, 12:06:55 pm »

I don't think that The Brady has anything to do with Tate Brady, he built Cains Ballroom IIRC, but not Brady.

I believe The Brady was originally called the Tulsa Municipal Hall and only became The Brady Theater when the city replaced it and sold it. Growing up it was "The Old Lady on Brady", but I don't know if that was an official name or not.


Old Lady - nickname.
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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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« Reply #559 on: September 15, 2017, 12:13:30 pm »


Old Lady - nickname.


I looked around because I thought 'Old Lady' might have been on the marquee back in the 80s. I didn't find a photo with Old Lady on the building, but here's a ticket from 1979:


And I found this, it's of black men being taken as prisoners to The Brady during the Race Riot, the photo calls it "Convention Hall"


I wonder what they would think of the name Brady being used today?
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erfalf
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« Reply #560 on: September 15, 2017, 12:49:54 pm »

http://www.newson6.com/story/22829145/business-owners-weigh-in

So lemme get this straight. This article indicates the association told the city council to get lost. 4 years later... here we are. Enough to give you whiplash.
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« Reply #561 on: September 15, 2017, 01:53:15 pm »

Let me answer the most repeated questions (and one conspiracy theory):

1. This is the action of the Brady District Business Association; any business, non profit, or group located in the district can be a member.  The City, County, etc. is not involved unless they are a member of the Association (I don't think they are). Anyone with significant wealth or influence that is a member has one vote, just like any other business that is a member of the association.

2. The likely cost to the City is zero. The city may change signs if they want to, but the district changed to the Brady Arts District some time ago and no signs were ever updated... so I'm guess the City budget here is still zero. It certainly isn't obligated to spend any money.

3. The association accepted name suggestions from members and the public.  The association then held a vote and the top three vote-getters were announced.  If you hate all the names but did not submit any suggestions, you missed the boat.  My guess is most members of the public would hate any new name, though some may be hated more than others.

Quote
Many of you have expressed an interest in being part of the District re-branding/re-naming process. Here is your opportunity to be considered.
Due to the nature of the new identity being not just a name but a brand, the suggested names should meet the following criteria
- Not be named for a person
- Be forward looking
- Related to the neighborhood
- Iconic & Distinct e.g. not in use by another entity in Tulsa
Your ideas are due by Monday, September 11, 2017 at 11:59 pm and must be submitted to namethedistrict@gmail.com
Thank you,
Members of The Brady Arts District Business association

4. The Brady Theater is privately owned.  If the owner wants to change the name, he will.  I believe he was asked about it and indicated they have no plans to change the name.

5. If you wonder why some people want to change the name, the following links cover it pretty well.  Go read these and look at the cited original materials before making up your mind about A) the likely truth of the allegations and B) if you think there is merit in removing his name. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Tate_Brady
http://www.batesline.com/archives/2014/04/tate-brady-and-the-tulsa-spirit.html
https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2017/08/28/tate-brady-questionable-motives-and-renaming-brady/
http://thislandpress.com/2012/04/18/tate-brady-battle-greenwood/
http://thislandpress.com/2011/09/01/w-t-brady-court-transcript/

6. If you are interested in why the Blair Mansion was torn down, there are plenty of articles discussing it.  I''m not aware of any support for the theory that it was torn down because it is a 1960s copy of Jefferson Davis' retirement home (which is now a museum and on the register of historic places).
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/blair-mansion-set-for-demolition/article_6132fb68-8ad4-11e3-914a-001a4bcf6878.html
http://www.batesline.com/archives/2014/01/blair-mansion-riverside-drive-la.html
http://www.newson6.com/story/24608019/tulsa-landmark-mansion-demolished-to-make-way-for-city-pond-park
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TulsaBeMore
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« Reply #562 on: September 15, 2017, 02:18:27 pm »

Let me answer the most repeated questions (and one conspiracy theory):

1. This is the action of the Brady District Business Association; any business, non profit, or group located in the district can be a member.  The City, County, etc. is not involved unless they are a member of the Association (I don't think they are). Anyone with significant wealth or influence that is a member has one vote, just like any other business that is a member of the association.

2. The likely cost to the City is zero. The city may change signs if they want to, but the district changed to the Brady Arts District some time ago and no signs were ever updated... so I'm guess the City budget here is still zero. It certainly isn't obligated to spend any money.

3. The association accepted name suggestions from members and the public.  The association then held a vote and the top three vote-getters were announced.  If you hate all the names but did not submit any suggestions, you missed the boat.  My guess is most members of the public would hate any new name, though some may be hated more than others.

4. The Brady Theater is privately owned.  If the owner wants to change the name, he will.  I believe he was asked about it and indicated they have no plans to change the name.

5. If you wonder why some people want to change the name, the following links cover it pretty well.  Go read these and look at the cited original materials before making up your mind about A) the likely truth of the allegations and B) if you think there is merit in removing his name. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Tate_Brady
http://www.batesline.com/archives/2014/04/tate-brady-and-the-tulsa-spirit.html
https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2017/08/28/tate-brady-questionable-motives-and-renaming-brady/
http://thislandpress.com/2012/04/18/tate-brady-battle-greenwood/
http://thislandpress.com/2011/09/01/w-t-brady-court-transcript/

6. If you are interested in why the Blair Mansion was torn down, there are plenty of articles discussing it.  I''m not aware of any support for the theory that it was torn down because it is a 1960s copy of Jefferson Davis' retirement home (which is now a museum and on the register of historic places).
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/blair-mansion-set-for-demolition/article_6132fb68-8ad4-11e3-914a-001a4bcf6878.html
http://www.batesline.com/archives/2014/01/blair-mansion-riverside-drive-la.html
http://www.newson6.com/story/24608019/tulsa-landmark-mansion-demolished-to-make-way-for-city-pond-park


To be clear, I'm OK with renaming the district.  Might as well get rid of Brady Street too.

1. When/where did the association ask for public name suggestions?  The association prez said it was a private matter.  The Tulsa World indicates not every property owner was involved.
The association has the right to do what it wants, but to be inclusive, you'd think a major effort for input would be made.     

2. Read all the articles about the Blair Mansion and saw all the coverage at the time. Had they wanted the house to stay --- it would have stayed. Period. This stuff about cutting it into thirds, etc. was far-fetched.  They did not want it.  They knew it was a landmark to most Tulsans.  That's why they attempted to tear it down before anyone knew.  The confederate replica motive falls into conspiracy category, I guess.  Nothing else really makes sense.   

3. I'm a fan of the Kaiser group, really.  To say it has one vote is likely true, but to say it can't/doesn't influence others is unlikely. The mayor doesn't have as much influence on the Arts District. Don't get me wrong, they have been awesome stewards. It's OK to raise questions.
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TulsaGoldenHurriCAN
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« Reply #563 on: September 15, 2017, 02:27:32 pm »


And if you read my comment, in reply to TulsaBeMore's comment, "I've heard some people upset about Woody Guthrie - socialist, etc.",

it very clearly says, "That would be the deplorable Nazi and KKK parties."

Meaning, of course that the people most likely to be upset would be those two groups.   Slow down and read carefully.  You appear to be "listening" (reading) just to reply, rather than listening (reading) to hear.


I read what you said and that is what I had an issue with. The majority of people who wouldn't want it named after Guthrie would be conservatives who are educated about the harmful socialist/communist views Guthrie held on to (Ok that Stalin was murdering millions in name of socialism).

I wouldn't want it to be named after Guthrie because we shouldn't honor extreme socialists who abandon their kids and seemed to hate America. The only reason most people would be ok is because they would either not know who it is or think he's just the guy who wrote "This Land" and not even realize that song was satirical, anti-capitalist and hating on the idea of private property.

Now, if it had been named the "Guthrie Arts District" for decades and was ingrained in what we call it, I would embrace that as the name.
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TulsaBeMore
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« Reply #564 on: September 15, 2017, 05:23:13 pm »

Center of the Universe Arts District.  

COTUlsa Arts District

Done.

Next.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 05:28:12 pm by TulsaBeMore » Logged
Red Arrow
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« Reply #565 on: September 15, 2017, 09:27:59 pm »

Put in a real (steel wheels on rails) trolley and call it the Trolley District.

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TeeDub
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« Reply #566 on: September 16, 2017, 07:41:48 pm »


Did anyone suggest the Snowflake district yet?   Because it has a special ring of truth to it.
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« Reply #567 on: September 17, 2017, 09:01:19 am »

Did anyone suggest the Snowflake district yet?   Because it has a special ring of truth to it.



Puuuuurrrrfeccttt....!!!
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« Reply #568 on: September 18, 2017, 09:03:39 am »

To be clear, I'm OK with renaming the district.  Might as well get rid of Brady Street too.

Changing the street name can only be done by the City and creates significant issues for everything from mail delivery to Google Maps.  Changing a street name twice in a decade even more so.

Quote
1. When/where did the association ask for public name suggestions?  The association prez said it was a private matter.  The Tulsa World indicates not every property owner was involved.
The association has the right to do what it wants, but to be inclusive, you'd think a major effort for input would be made.     

Not sure where all they asked for suggestions, I quoted their facebook page above.  The President is right, it is a private matter, but they accepted public suggestions too. The Tulsa World is correct, only members of the Brady District Business Association were involved.
- - -

On the actually naming -  I learned that there is a NoDo district in Omaha.
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« Reply #569 on: September 18, 2017, 09:14:01 am »

Did anyone suggest the Snowflake district yet?   Because it has a special ring of truth to it.


 Roll Eyes

Those "snowflakes" are trying to build Tulsa into a place people actually want to live and visit and have put a lot of money, sweat and tears into that district.
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