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March 19, 2024, 01:26:17 am
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Author Topic: "We're Sorry" Not Working  (Read 11245 times)
rwarn17588
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2010, 10:07:24 am »


February 11th - HYPERBOLE
Example: "Iran is now a nuclear state" says Ahmadinejad as millions take to the streets.


Hell, even al-Jazeera is casting deep doubts on Ahmadinjad's claim that Iran is a "nuclear state." Everyone's calling him on his B.S. now.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/02/201021193246956530.html
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nathanm
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2010, 03:22:17 pm »

Hell, even al-Jazeera is casting deep doubts on Ahmadinjad's claim that Iran is a "nuclear state." Everyone's calling him on his B.S. now.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/02/201021193246956530.html

Yeah, I couldn't quite understand what Iran hopes to gain by announcing this so publicly. It makes me think that, like North Korea, they want our relationship to be more productive, but the only way they know how to force us to the table is through belligerent talk. (And it seems to take forcing, since we're apparently still not interested in having a dialogue with either nation)

It seems more like a cry for attention than any actual threat. Not that it wouldn't be threatening for Iran to have a nuke. It would be. That said, I think even they grasp the concept of the total annihilation that will be brought upon them should their technology find its way into the hands of a terrorist organization.

While I'm generally not for dick-waving contests, I think that this is one subject on which a dick-waving contest is a mighty fine idea. Your weapon destroys our city, our weapon destroys your city and some others destroy all the underground bunkers in your country. (no fair hiding underground while your populace reaps what you sowed!) And we've got several hundred more where that came from if you want to keep screwing around.

This is one area where there can be no compromise. We will respond in kind, no matter how repugnant that seems. It's the only way to deter such idiocy.

Until that time, there's no need for the big stick.

I don't get why we refused to exchange their material for fuel rods, though. What exactly was wrong with giving them the fuel rods when they gave us the uranium they've now partly refined? Was there any benefit to the plan of taking their uranium, waiting a few months and then giving them fuel rods?
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
Conan71
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2010, 03:47:30 pm »


I don't get why we refused to exchange their material for fuel rods, though. What exactly was wrong with giving them the fuel rods when they gave us the uranium they've now partly refined? Was there any benefit to the plan of taking their uranium, waiting a few months and then giving them fuel rods?


And therein lies the problem with our amateur view of diplomacy and intel.  There's a whole lot the general public is not made privvy to and probably for good reason.
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
nathanm
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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2010, 04:04:43 pm »

And therein lies the problem with our amateur view of diplomacy and intel.  There's a whole lot the general public is not made privvy to and probably for good reason.
No matter what the intel, I fail to see how taking something that would be easier to use for a bomb and giving them something that would be harder to use for a bomb can be anything but a step forward.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
Conan71
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2010, 04:09:46 pm »

No matter what the intel, I fail to see how taking something that would be easier to use for a bomb and giving them something that would be harder to use for a bomb can be anything but a step forward.

I think it boils down to not wanting to reward extortion.  What kind of message does that send?
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nathanm
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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2010, 04:16:58 pm »

I think it boils down to not wanting to reward extortion.  What kind of message does that send?
It sends the message that we'll be supportive of peaceful use of nuclear energy for anybody, no matter how much we dislike them or how stupidly they behave.

This keeps the non-proliferation regime strong by assuring nations that they need not build their own infrastructure to refine uranium. It's not like it's beneficial from a purely financial perspective. Those gas centrifuges are extremely capital intensive.

Our manly-man contests only undermine the NPT.

While I think that an eye for an eye type deterrence will probably work on its own, I prefer a more layered approach to security.
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Gaspar
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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2010, 04:18:48 pm »

No matter what the intel, I fail to see how taking something that would be easier to use for a bomb and giving them something that would be harder to use for a bomb can be anything but a step forward.



"I support this message."
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rwarn17588
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« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2010, 04:19:27 pm »


I don't get why we refused to exchange their material for fuel rods, though. What exactly was wrong with giving them the fuel rods when they gave us the uranium they've now partly refined? Was there any benefit to the plan of taking their uranium, waiting a few months and then giving them fuel rods?


I suspect, given the story above, that the U.S. government thinks there's a con job involved.
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nathanm
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« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2010, 04:32:55 pm »

"I support this message."
How about rather than a picture of Carter and a pithy message, you explain to me where I'm wrong?

rwarn: My understanding is that it's relatively easy to determine that you're getting what you're supposed to if you have the right equipment with you. Perhaps I'm wrong and they could have easily substituted depleted uranium or something. (DU isn't useful to someone trying to build a fission bomb, although it's quite handy for a fission-fusion-fission bomb)

Either way, if the deal was as advertised, there's only upside. We seem to be pretty good at walking away from deals with only upside in the middle east in the past decade or two, at least going by what the public has been told.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
rwarn17588
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2010, 04:36:38 pm »


Either way, if the deal was as advertised, there's only upside. We seem to be pretty good at walking away from deals with only upside in the middle east in the past decade or two, at least going by what the public has been told.

Well, that's a big "if" ...

Let's face it ... Amidinejad has been such a nutjob and has been so disingenuous that it's hard to take anything he says seriously. Given all his bluster from the past week, there was no reason to pay this guy any serious attention.
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nathanm
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« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2010, 04:41:13 pm »

Well, that's a big "if" ...
It sure is. And that's why we should have protected ourselves. Flat-out refusing with no reason given, on the other hand, makes us look like the assholes. I don't mind being an a**hole when it's the only option, but when there are other options, I think being an a**hole is one of the worse options when you're fighting a "war" for hearts and minds.
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"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration" --Abraham Lincoln
rwarn17588
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« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2010, 04:43:01 pm »

It sure is. And that's why we should have protected ourselves. Flat-out refusing with no reason given, on the other hand, makes us look like the assholes.

You're assuming there was a flat-out refusal with no reason given. Rash assumption, very likely.
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nathanm
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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2010, 04:44:34 pm »

You're assuming there was a flat-out refusal with no reason given. Rash assumption, very likely.
I can only go by what the news reports say, not being an involved party.
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2010, 04:47:52 pm »

How about rather than a picture of Carter and a pithy message, you explain to me where I'm wrong?



Easy Nathan,

All I can do is refer to history.  We’ve tried this in multiple countries with everything from weapons to food to fuel. . . and every time it backfires. 

Diplomacy is completely different from blackmail.  They cannot exist together.  Diplomacy relies on trade and trust, and both parties grow from it.  Blackmail relies on politics and lack of trust. . .give me what I want and I’ll do what you want.  Jimmy Carter failed to recognize the difference too, as did many others.

These countries are exercising leverage through threat.  They use the relaxation in tensions to create new bargaining chips and expand the threat.  To placate them is a dangerous tactic, and a lesson we’ve learned again and again.

Threat becomes currency when there’s no fear of retribution.

I have two small children.  I know how this works.
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rwarn17588
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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2010, 04:49:12 pm »

I can only go by what the news reports say, not being an involved party.

Having read books about the history of varying presidents and the inner workings of such things, I can say it's very, very likely the refusal wasn't just a snap decision, and not without cause.

A lot of background occurs out of the public eye ... for good reason.
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