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June 18, 2019, 04:11:43 am
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Author Topic: Our streets are morbidly obese  (Read 6844 times)
Red Arrow
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« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2009, 08:09:59 pm »

Suburbanites hate one way streets.


I am about as suburbanite as anyone on this forum and I don't mind one way streets.  Maybe because I grew up living on one in suburban Philadelphia, PA.  The street was wide enough for 2 way traffic or one way with parking on one side but not both.  We didn't have a driveway so we had to park on the street.

One way streets are easier to cross as a pedestrian.  You only have traffic coming from one direction. If it's so wide you cannot cross in a reasonable time, that's a different problem.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2009, 04:46:36 pm »

Not sure how this fits in, but worse than the wide/one way streets is the lack of life on the street level.  95% of the space is taken up by a blank wall on an office tower or an empty lot.  In cities that seem "alive" there are many more storefronts, murals, or gathering areas spread about.  In downtown Tulsa you just walk between destinations with very little between them.  Ground floor retail, bars, small office fronts . . . things like that.  It's what makes Brookside feel alive when you walk down the street.  Stick a huge blank wall or several empty lots on Brookside and see how it feels.   Angry
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Red Arrow
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« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2009, 08:59:23 pm »

Not sure how this fits in, but worse than the wide/one way streets is the lack of life on the street level.  95% of the space is taken up by a blank wall on an office tower or an empty lot.  In cities that seem "alive" there are many more storefronts, murals, or gathering areas spread about.  In downtown Tulsa you just walk between destinations with very little between them.  Ground floor retail, bars, small office fronts . . . things like that.  It's what makes Brookside feel alive when you walk down the street.  Stick a huge blank wall or several empty lots on Brookside and see how it feels.   Angry

I have to agree, blank walls and parking garages are not very entertaining.  I want to live where I do but a visit to the city is occasionally fun.  What "you guys" envision  would be a nice place even for suburbanites to visit.  I'll need a trolley to get there since by then all the excess parking for cars should be gone. 

I'll mention it again,  do a Google Street View of Girard Ave in Philly and imagine what it was when it was new. Street Car (real trolley) running down the center of the street for lots of miles.  Route 15 is currently running remanufactured PCC (Late 1930s to late 1940s build) trolleys after nearly 10 years of bustitution by SEPTA.  There are a few other trolley lines but they are running some modern (1980s) trolleys that I think are aesthetically challenged. The old ones would look good in Tulsa.  One of the local trolley fans said that SEPTA would still rather do buses.  Maybe we could get some cool trolleys with all new running gear but great looks.
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waterboy
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« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2009, 06:16:19 am »

I have to agree, blank walls and parking garages are not very entertaining.  I want to live where I do but a visit to the city is occasionally fun.  What "you guys" envision  would be a nice place even for suburbanites to visit.  I'll need a trolley to get there since by then all the excess parking for cars should be gone. 

I'll mention it again,  do a Google Street View of Girard Ave in Philly and imagine what it was when it was new. Street Car (real trolley) running down the center of the street for lots of miles.  Route 15 is currently running remanufactured PCC (Late 1930s to late 1940s build) trolleys after nearly 10 years of bustitution by SEPTA.  There are a few other trolley lines but they are running some modern (1980s) trolleys that I think are aesthetically challenged. The old ones would look good in Tulsa.  One of the local trolley fans said that SEPTA would still rather do buses.  Maybe we could get some cool trolleys with all new running gear but great looks.

Real trolleys? Or those silly rubber wheeled knock-offs? I say silly because they are in reality just another bus with a different skin. No wonder transit authorities prefer standard busses with their better reliability and maintenance properties.

A real electric trolley would be an attraction on its own and, if its route was well designed, much more efficient than a diesel powered, blunt nosed, noise maker that many cities have embraced.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 06:20:29 am by waterboy » Logged
Red Arrow
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« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2009, 06:44:10 am »

Real trolleys? Or those silly rubber wheeled knock-offs? I say silly because they are in reality just another bus with a different skin. No wonder transit authorities prefer standard busses with their better reliability and maintenance properties.

A real electric trolley would be an attraction on its own and, if its route was well designed, much more efficient than a diesel powered, blunt nosed, noise maker that many cities have embraced.

You should know me well enough by now that I would never refer to a rubber tired, internal combustion engine powered vehicle that needs to be steered by its operator as a trolley.

I don't have any pictures of a PCC II trolley, as the rebuilt ones are referred to, for posting. I'll dig up some links again and post them.
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« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2009, 06:56:15 am »

Here is a link to a bunch of pictures of Philly's reconstructed PCC trolleys that they call PCC II.  If you compare them to the PCC trolleys that San Francisco uses, the bump on the roof now runs almost full length to house the airconditioning that was not on the original build. The trucks and motors are all new as are the controls.  As I understand it, they basically reused the body shells for the appearance and replaced the rest.

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/septapcc2.html

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waterboy
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« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2009, 07:37:55 am »

I can't keep up with your posts. I'm lucky to remember what I posted. Wink

Those are nice. Modern amenities, utilitarian interiors with a 40'a european look. Dedicated route for the "fans" makes lots of sense for them but our sports venues probably don't draw enough to make that feasible. Nonetheless run one of these on a route from 41st & Yale, Fairgrounds, TU, Cherry Street and downtown ending up at the arena and you will get better ridership than a bus running the same route.  Run another one from south memorial to Riverside, diverting to Brookside, ending up downtown. Set up parking areas on each end and strategically along the route. We could be so cool.
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nathanm
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« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2009, 07:48:57 am »

Here is a link to a bunch of pictures of Philly's reconstructed PCC trolleys that they call PCC II.  If you compare them to the PCC trolleys that San Francisco uses, the bump on the roof now runs almost full length to house the airconditioning that was not on the original build. The trucks and motors are all new as are the controls.  As I understand it, they basically reused the body shells for the appearance and replaced the rest.

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/septapcc2.html


That is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see in Tulsa for the closer in parts of town. Areas farther out should be served by park and ride off-street rail. (Perhaps with some trolleys to feed the stops eventually)

A large part of the impediment is just getting people to realize that the government is subsidizing their transportation choice regardless of what mode they are using. Car, bicycle, pedestrian, bus, trolley, light rail, heavy rail, whatever. It's all subsidized. Until that happens, all we'll get is a bunch of noise about socialism.
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« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2009, 10:11:37 am »

That is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see in Tulsa for the closer in parts of town. Areas farther out should be served by park and ride off-street rail. (Perhaps with some trolleys to feed the stops eventually)

A large part of the impediment is just getting people to realize that the government is subsidizing their transportation choice regardless of what mode they are using. Car, bicycle, pedestrian, bus, trolley, light rail, heavy rail, whatever. It's all subsidized. Until that happens, all we'll get is a bunch of noise about socialism.

Every time the conversation turns to,,, we need to; build a new road here, widen this road, build that bridge, widen this intersection, re-pave, etc. etc.    Let out the conservative battle cry "Keep government out of the transportation business!" "Let the free market do it, its the TRUE conservative way!" Post that on every TW article related to roads and rail. Next time your at a conservative political event, shout that out, bring placards, etc.

Be a REAL conservative, more conservative than the usual pretenders, and that might "key" them in on a few things.

(same thing with medicare and medicade,,, Keep the Goverment out of Health Care!)

Frankly I think it would be a brilliant idea regardless. I doubt very much that if all the roads were built and maintained by free market forces, developers, retailers, etc. that we would see the sprawl we do today and I bet we would see a LOT more density and rail looking very competitive. 

« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:13:53 am by TheArtist » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2009, 12:00:16 pm »

That is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see in Tulsa for the closer in parts of town. Areas farther out should be served by park and ride off-street rail. (Perhaps with some trolleys to feed the stops eventually)

A large part of the impediment is just getting people to realize that the government is subsidizing their transportation choice regardless of what mode they are using. Car, bicycle, pedestrian, bus, trolley, light rail, heavy rail, whatever. It's all subsidized. Until that happens, all we'll get is a bunch of noise about socialism.

I hope we see some pedestrians on the new sidewalks along Memorial from the turnpike to 111th.  I agree most transportation is subsidized.

Maybe we could take advantage of the setback used by the strip shopping centers to put in some (real) trolley lines.
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