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Author Topic: Barney Frank Files Bill To Decriminalize Pot  (Read 30527 times)
TheArtist
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« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2009, 08:30:06 am »

  The thing I have noticed about those who smoke pot, is that its not so much that they cant hold a job or do certain things per say, its more that, wherever they were in their lives developmentally when they started smoking, thats where they stay (until they quit smoking and or doing drugs then you find, and they find, that they are almost starting all over, they feel like they are perhaps 20years old maturity wise but have a 30 or 40 year old body). If they happened to have good work or other habits when they started, its a decent chance those things will continue. If on the other hand they were immature and or hadnt yet developed good work habits, life habits, social habits, etc.... while they are smoking pot, they wont. Essentially it seems people stop developing and growing.

A lot of the progress we make in life is because we get sick and tired of the way things are and that pain pushes us to change and do something different. Change and growth take a lot of work. If however, whenever you dont feel good and can simply smoke something to feel good, well there goes your motivation. Alcohol can act similarly, but the difference is that pot acts differently in the brain. It can actually reduce, and become a replacement for, the brains natural ability to "feel good". Kind of like weight lifters who take testosterone, the artificial testosterone reduces the bodies own testosterone production, aka shrinks their balls lol.

Also pleasure is a motivator to do things, the joy of accomplishment, etc. However, if the habit is easier to smoke something to feel good, well that becomes more likely to happen, the more likely motivator. But its also a directionless motivator. If you have direction fine, if you dont, your crap outta luck. You now have even more to overcome. Not that you care. But if you do,,, oh well, dont feel like dealing with that today, gonna smoke some pot. Aaaah yea, everything is fiiine duuuude. Life is great.  

Is it the end of the world? No.  But it can easily become a major stumbling block on any hoped for journey of growth, change, achieved potential,,,self-actualization and true joy.   (And some people do become addicted, I have met some who are, and its really sad. It becomes their main relationship. Even supplanting the relationship with their own "self", and "they" of course cant see it. )

« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 08:39:51 am by TheArtist » Logged

"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h
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« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2009, 10:25:41 am »

 The thing I have noticed about those who smoke pot, is that its not so much that they cant hold a job or do certain things per say, its more that, wherever they were in their lives developmentally when they started smoking, thats where they stay (until they quit smoking and or doing drugs then you find, and they find, that they are almost starting all over, they feel like they are perhaps 20years old maturity wise but have a 30 or 40 year old body). If they happened to have good work or other habits when they started, its a decent chance those things will continue. If on the other hand they were immature and or hadnt yet developed good work habits, life habits, social habits, etc.... while they are smoking pot, they wont. Essentially it seems people stop developing and growing.

A lot of the progress we make in life is because we get sick and tired of the way things are and that pain pushes us to change and do something different. Change and growth take a lot of work. If however, whenever you dont feel good and can simply smoke something to feel good, well there goes your motivation. Alcohol can act similarly, but the difference is that pot acts differently in the brain. It can actually reduce, and become a replacement for, the brains natural ability to "feel good". Kind of like weight lifters who take testosterone, the artificial testosterone reduces the bodies own testosterone production, aka shrinks their Arteests balls lol.

Also pleasure is a motivator to do things, the joy of accomplishment, etc. However, if the habit is easier to smoke something to feel good, well that becomes more likely to happen, the more likely motivator. But its also a directionless motivator. (TELL THAT TO THE MUSIC/ARTISTIC COMMUNITY)If you have direction fine, if you dont, your crap outta luck. You now have even more to overcome. Not that you care. But if you do,,, oh well, dont feel like dealing with that today, gonna smoke some pot. Aaaah yea, everything is fiiine duuuude. Life is great.  

Is it the end of the world? No.  But it can easily become a major stumbling block facilitator on any hoped for journey of growth, change, achieved potential,,,self-actualization and true joy.   (And some people do become addicted (common lie), I have met some who are, and its really sad. It becomes their main relationship. Even supplanting the relationship with their own "self", and "they" of course cant see it. )



HAWGWASH!
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FOTD
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« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2009, 10:31:40 am »

No conservatives wait till they're drunk then whisper: "where can I score some weed?"

Interesting. Recalling the days when alcohol was prohibited from music venues, the stoners created an atmosphere of quiet involvement with the performers. Then alcohol was let into the scene as promoters and venues started expanding their profit potential. Then, the music scene became messy, noisy, smelly, obscene, and lacked the previous connection between artist and audience.

Bill Graham often prohibited such sickness to penetrate his shows. Then he died in a helicopter crash and the scene was never the same again....

* BillGraham.jpg (38.79 KB - downloaded 408 times.)
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2009, 10:41:06 am »

Too many pot heads are to their chosen drug what some college students are to alcohol:  it's really "cool" to seem like you use too much and actually to do so.  Wear a marijuana/Budweiser shirt.  Have parties with the intent of drinking/smoking.  Be really cool.

But like alcohol, most pot users are actually normal, responsible people.  Most "pot heads" eventually level out their usage and become Average Joe.   If alcoholics and/or college students were the the face of the alcohol industry, it would still be illegal too.

And also like alcohol, pot is not inherently addictive.  Most people can use it on a recreational basis with few or no adverse affects to their life or health while some will over use and adversely affect their health and life.  The inhalation of smoke is inherently bad for one of course, but for America to make marijuana illegal on that basis is hypocritical on too many levels to make it a logical statement.  As with all things, overuse is bad for your health but casual sporadic use is of no great concern.  If taken by a method other than smoking or smoking a refined product the health are nearly negated (there are inherent dangers to putting chemicals in the body of course, but again - from the most heavily drugged country in the world that reason falls short).

For that matter, it can have medical benefits.  Some research even suggests it suppresses lung cancer.  Certainly the benefits in pain reduction and appetite stimulation are well known.  Is "medical marijuana" some kind of breakthrough?  I don't think so, but for people suffering from chronic problems it is of great use (no pun intended.  I know of 2 people personally who have/had severe injuries and marijuana use allowed them to cope with the pain.  The alternative was heavy narcotics that would not enable them to function on any level.).  

Marijuana's intended effect is also not inherently dangerous.  It doesn't promote all night parties, violence, blackouts, "accidental" sexual encounters, or other behavior associated with many recreational drugs (including alcohol).  It DOES impair ones ability to make decisions and operate machinery (including cars) and if decriminalized/legalized that aspect of usage should still be tightly controlled (as it is with alcohol, prescription drugs, or anything else).  

Like prohibition, crime associated with marijuana will nearly disappear with legalization and could be significantly reduced with decriminalization.   We can grow PLENTY of marijuana in this country, imports won't be a great concern.  There will be no reason to shoot the guy down the street for selling on your corner either.  Will criminals find other crimes?  Probably, the mob still operates.  But it will take one more "product" off of their shelves.

BUT, all that aside, the war on drugs is a loser.  We have been spending tens of billions of dollars and removing tens of thousands of people from productive life for two decades (3?), and have accomplished nothing.  Drug use, particularly marijuana (new drugs come and go), has remained stable as it did before the "war on drugs."  Criminalizing drug use ever tighter doesn't work and the rest of the world is using as as exhibit "A".  

Spain had a very significant drug problem.  They sent researchers to the United States and then decided to legalize almost all drugs. Usage is down.  Drug related crime is down.  Treatment is up.  Enforcement budgets have been slashed.  The apocalypse predicted by conservatives never materialized, neighboring countries aren't having significant "bleed over" problems.  In short:  it worked.

But we're Puritans.  Body and soul.  So lets just keep throwing people in jail because EVENTUALLY it will work.
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« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2009, 10:54:51 am »

Bravo CF!

Most of us "indulger's" or "users" take extra effort in self maintenance. Great diets, exercise, wellness focus, and over all health consciousness seems to be the norm amongst the majority of naturalists. Look what sprouted from the enormous culture movement towards self awareness and mindfulness that started with the 1960's.

* AddictionTree.jpg (36.02 KB - downloaded 413 times.)
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kylieosu
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« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2009, 10:57:24 am »

Too many pot heads are to their chosen drug what some college students are to alcohol:  it's really "cool" to seem like you use too much and actually to do so.  Wear a marijuana/Budweiser shirt.  Have parties with the intent of drinking/smoking.  Be really cool.

But like alcohol, most pot users are actually normal, responsible people.  Most "pot heads" eventually level out their usage and become Average Joe.   If alcoholics and/or college students were the the face of the alcohol industry, it would still be illegal too.

And also like alcohol, pot is not inherently addictive.  Most people can use it on a recreational basis with few or no adverse affects to their life or health while some will over use and adversely affect their health and life.  The inhalation of smoke is inherently bad for one of course, but for America to make marijuana illegal on that basis is hypocritical on too many levels to make it a logical statement.  As with all things, overuse is bad for your health but casual sporadic use is of no great concern.  If taken by a method other than smoking or smoking a refined product the health are nearly negated (there are inherent dangers to putting chemicals in the body of course, but again - from the most heavily drugged country in the world that reason falls short).

For that matter, it can have medical benefits.  Some research even suggests it suppresses lung cancer.  Certainly the benefits in pain reduction and appetite stimulation are well known.  Is "medical marijuana" some kind of breakthrough?  I don't think so, but for people suffering from chronic problems it is of great use (no pun intended.  I know of 2 people personally who have/had severe injuries and marijuana use allowed them to cope with the pain.  The alternative was heavy narcotics that would not enable them to function on any level.).  

Marijuana's intended effect is also not inherently dangerous.  It doesn't promote all night parties, violence, blackouts, "accidental" sexual encounters, or other behavior associated with many recreational drugs (including alcohol).  It DOES impair ones ability to make decisions and operate machinery (including cars) and if decriminalized/legalized that aspect of usage should still be tightly controlled (as it is with alcohol, prescription drugs, or anything else).  

Like prohibition, crime associated with marijuana will nearly disappear with legalization and could be significantly reduced with decriminalization.   We can grow PLENTY of marijuana in this country, imports won't be a great concern.  There will be no reason to shoot the guy down the street for selling on your corner either.  Will criminals find other crimes?  Probably, the mob still operates.  But it will take one more "product" off of their shelves.

BUT, all that aside, the war on drugs is a loser.  We have been spending tens of billions of dollars and removing tens of thousands of people from productive life for two decades (3?), and have accomplished nothing.  Drug use, particularly marijuana (new drugs come and go), has remained stable as it did before the "war on drugs."  Criminalizing drug use ever tighter doesn't work and the rest of the world is using as as exhibit "A".  

Spain had a very significant drug problem.  They sent researchers to the United States and then decided to legalize almost all drugs. Usage is down.  Drug related crime is down.  Treatment is up.  Enforcement budgets have been slashed.  The apocalypse predicted by conservatives never materialized, neighboring countries aren't having significant "bleed over" problems.  In short:  it worked.

But we're Puritans.  Body and soul.  So lets just keep throwing people in jail because EVENTUALLY it will work.

+++++++1
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pendo
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« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2009, 12:05:39 pm »

I'm a libertarian who leans conservative on quite a few issues. I smoked quite a bit of weed in college (graduated a couple years ago) and haven't smoked since. I really have no interest in smoking again, though I do support its legalization.

I would say of my friends, a pretty equal share of the righties and lefties currently smoke weed. And for the most part we all think weed should be legalized. I think it's because our age. For folks my age, we have always known all our life that it's not something that is really bad for you, it's just something fun and safe to do. (And I would say we are pretty successful people for our age. Though the lefties, maybe not as much Wink. In college I never let weed get in the way of anything important, and my friends now who still smoke it don't let it get in the way of the important things.)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 12:08:33 pm by pendo » Logged
Conan71
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« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2009, 12:34:02 pm »


And also like alcohol, pot is not inherently addictive.


'Scuse me, I just spit vodka all over my computer screen.  I suppose it isn't in the hands of people who have balance in their life but try and pass that line of BS off on someone who has struggled with substance abuse and addiction, you won't get very far.

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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2009, 01:53:27 pm »

'Scuse me, I just spit vodka all over my computer screen.  I suppose it isn't in the hands of people who have balance in their life but try and pass that line of BS off on someone who has struggled with substance abuse and addiction, you won't get very far.

You needed to keep reading . . .

Quote
And also like alcohol, pot is not inherently addictive.  Most people can use it on a recreational basis with few or no adverse affects to their life or health while some will over use and adversely affect their health and life.

Is that not an accurate statement?  MOST people will have no addiction issues with either alcohol or marijuana.  But some people will.  Like alcohol, marijuana is not  innately, unavoidably, or inherently addictive (like tobacco).    I specifically said some will over use and adversely affect their life and their health.  Some of that will be on their own accord, and some will be from addiction (physical or mental).  I did not mean to imply addiction isn't real.

My family has a history of alcoholism (the flag in my computer room is from my uncle who drank himself to death, for instance).   I have abused and been addicted to substances.  I am well aware of the pitfalls and I am also well aware that MOST people who smoke marijuana or drink alcohol are not addicted.  If I were to compare addictions NyQuil or other over the counter sleep aids would be higher on the list of addictive substances than marijuana.

Most, if not all alcoholics would agree with the statement that most people can drink alcohol without being addicted.  I have no qualms standing by my statement.  If this post doesn't clear my position up, let me know.  But I stand by the fact that most people can drink alcohol without becoming alcoholics and most people can smoke pot without becoming some sort of degenerate.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 01:55:00 pm by cannon_fodder » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2009, 02:18:09 pm »

No conservatives wait till they're drunk then whisper: "where can I score some weed?"

Ah, yes.  But as far as I know Conan, the only conservatives who would openly admit getting drunk are Catholics.

Baptists don't admit drinking until they run into each other at the liquor store.

 Grin
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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2009, 02:42:09 pm »

Ah, yes.  But as far as I know Conan, the only conservatives who would openly admit getting drunk are Catholics.

Baptists don't admit drinking until they run into each other at the liquor store.

 Grin

Baptists also don't have sex standing up.  They're afraid they'll be accused of dancing if they get caught.
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« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2009, 02:52:39 pm »

You needed to keep reading . . .

Is that not an accurate statement?  MOST people will have no addiction issues with either alcohol or marijuana.  But some people will.  Like alcohol, marijuana is not  innately, unavoidably, or inherently addictive (like tobacco).    I specifically said some will over use and adversely affect their life and their health.  Some of that will be on their own accord, and some will be from addiction (physical or mental).  I did not mean to imply addiction isn't real.

My family has a history of alcoholism (the flag in my computer room is from my uncle who drank himself to death, for instance).   I have abused and been addicted to substances.  I am well aware of the pitfalls and I am also well aware that MOST people who smoke marijuana or drink alcohol are not addicted.  If I were to compare addictions NyQuil or other over the counter sleep aids would be higher on the list of addictive substances than marijuana.

Most, if not all alcoholics would agree with the statement that most people can drink alcohol without being addicted.  I have no qualms standing by my statement.  If this post doesn't clear my position up, let me know.  But I stand by the fact that most people can drink alcohol without becoming alcoholics and most people can smoke pot without becoming some sort of degenerate.

Re-read what I said.  I qualified what I had to say about it being "inherently" addictive.  I didn't say a word about most people "would" or "wouldn't" be addicted to either substance.  I was simply pointing out the quote I selected would sound awful glib to someone who has suffered from addiction.  No one seems to compile accurate stats as to the number of drinkers or dope smokers who can be classified as addicts.  The true number is very likely under-reported because there are a lot of people who suffer from addiction who won't come forward and do something about it until it's gone way too far.

Bottom line is, I don't have a problem with the reasons behind decriminializing pot, that's fine and good if they do it.  I simply don't believe the implication that marijuana (or alcohol) are completely harmless substances.

Real truth is, I've waited for three years on this forum for the right moment to say: "'Scuse me I just spit Vodka all over my screen."
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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2009, 03:28:05 pm »

FOTD has known many Afrin (over the counter) addicts. Either their noses fried out or they went on to prescription speed. All of them have brain damage. Take it away, they go nuts. That's the true test for addiction. To my knowledge, one's body does not go through withdrawal after you take the herb away. It's not completely harmless. Less so than the air you breathe outside in Tulsa.....


Three years is a long time to hold silly lines in.....
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2009, 03:38:00 pm »

Bottom line is, I don't have a problem with the reasons behind decriminializing pot, that's fine and good if they do it.  I simply don't believe the implication that marijuana (or alcohol) are completely harmless substances.

Real truth is, I've waited for three years on this forum for the right moment to say: "'Scuse me I just spit Vodka all over my screen."

Well then we are in agreement.  And I'm happy I set you up for your gem.   Grin
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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2009, 03:54:47 pm »

FOTD has known many Afrin (over the counter) addicts. Either their noses fried out or they went on to prescription speed. All of them have brain damage. Take it away, they go nuts. That's the true test for addiction. To my knowledge, one's body does not go through withdrawal after you take the herb away. It's not completely harmless. Less so than the air you breathe outside in Tulsa.....


Three years is a long time to hold silly lines in.....


I'll back you up on the Afrin claim.  A guy I knew years back only had a couple of dollars left until payday the next day.  He was faced with the choice of buying cigarettes or Afrin.  He bought a Snickers bar and some Afrin.

A "true" test for addiction is a lot more involved than someone having obvious symptoms of withdrawls when it's taken away.  Addiction can take the form of physical, mental, or both.  There are no physical withdrawl symptoms I'm aware of either from pot, though the issues of separating mentally from an addiction is a whole other can of worms.

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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
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