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November 24, 2017, 02:32:30 pm
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Author Topic: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma  (Read 27479 times)
jdb
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2004, 10:25:33 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by MH2010


...currently down by over 100 officers...


Anyone know the skinny on what must happen before a new officer can hit the street?

Have heard several versions from the Academy being reopened, to new officers must do a year at lock-up before hitting the street. What's the real deal?

Meanwhile we have officers retiring, moving off, and being fired. Is there some minimal number we have to drop down to before the rules, whatever they are, change?

Second question is how squarely does this poor ranking fall on the Mayors shoulders?

Just in time for the seasonal spike in crimes too - go figure. jdb
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MH2010
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2004, 01:00:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by jdb

quote:
Originally posted by MH2010


...currently down by over 100 officers...


Anyone know the skinny on what must happen before a new officer can hit the street?

Have heard several versions from the Academy being reopened, to new officers must do a year at lock-up before hitting the street. What's the real deal?

Meanwhile we have officers retiring, moving off, and being fired. Is there some minimal number we have to drop down to before the rules, whatever they are, change?

Second question is how squarely does this poor ranking fall on the Mayors shoulders?

Just in time for the seasonal spike in crimes too - go figure. jdb



The Tulsa Police academy is 23 weeks long. This is mainly classroom learning. They learn state criminal law, municipal  law, state traffic law, municipal traffic law, controlled and dangerous substance identification, DUI and DWI, police tactics, defensive driving in a police car, shooting, ect.

If they complete the 23 week academy sucessfully, they then go thru 16 weeks of field training.  The recruits are paired with field officers and evaluated. If they complete the 16 weeks sucessfully then they are cut loose and are on their own.

The academy length will never shorten.  Alot of the hours are mandated by CLEET and the city would face further liability if they sent a unready police officer out on the street.

The mayor decided to cut three police academy's in 2002-2003.  That decision put us into the low manpower levels that are present today.  Also, the constant low pay for officers further cut the manpower because officers left the department for better paying jobs. The mayor has turned his back on public safety and now the city is having to pay for it.
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MH2010
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2004, 01:02:25 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little

Thanks MH.

Just think how much worse it would be if they didn't have the FOP.  Organized labor, friend of the working man.  




The FOP hasn't helped. Look at the arbitrator's recent decision concerning the police contract with the city.
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swake
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2004, 10:11:31 am »

Dug up some data on crime, from the FBI:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/xl/03tbl06.xls

Tulsa has a higher murder rate per 100,000 population than OKC, 8.6 to 5.9 and a higher aggravated assault rate 465.3 to 361.8, but Tulsa has lower rape, robbery, property crime, burglary, and larceny-theft rates. Tulsa has a higher auto-theft rate.  Tulsa’s overall violent crime rate is higher, driven by the aggravated assault rate. There’s not really a whole lot that more cops on the street would do to lower the aggravated assault rate. Fights and domestic violence are not usually crimes that can be deterred by enhanced police patrols. Car thefts I can see being helped by more cops and murder very marginally so, if only by being able to focus on gangs more. Well, maybe there is one way for the police to lower the aggravated assault rate, put away Steve Kitchell and his out of control bar bouncers, that one action would get our crime rate lower than OKC overnight.

Some total violent crime rates:
Tulsa       663.7
OKC      563.7
Lawton      678.1
Dallas      582.0
Houston      738.5
Little Rock   712.1
Omaha      446.7
New York   483.3
Los Angeles   721.3
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jdb
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2004, 10:50:56 am »

"...if they sent a unready police officer out on the street."

I was thinking more of recruiting seasoned officers from other cities, then arming green, yahoo's and pointing out towards the street.
(maybe intice them with 8x10 glossy arena renderings?)

So, we stand 39 weeks out, after reopening an academy, before a new officer hits the street?

Any provisions for the Sheriffs office picking up some of the slack?

As with all things, seems situations have to get worse before they get any better, but it also seems there has to be some kind of a stop-gap measure - short of callng in the National Guard due to some massive walk-out. Not that I see this happening, but if the City, any City, is banking on ones civic duty to stay on patrol, until all the kinks are ironed out, and that emplodes - what happens next?

jdb



Similar note:

6 street, downtown, Austin Tx. is a busy little spot. There one will see police in patrol cars, mounted on horse back, on MTN. bikes, and even a few on foot.
In addition, there is also a presence called "The something Rangers". (I can't recall their name)These were law enforcement minded kids, that wearing a uniform, armed with a radio, and working in pairs, had a beat they cover for the night: assisting people with smaller problems and calling in the bigger scuffles to the A.P.D..
Typically, they looked more like an 18 year old book worm, then a bulked up bouncer/ bruiser.
Running a club on 6th - I saw them as very helpful.
I realize all "programs" come with a price tag, but have been stumped as to why this concept, suggested for our downtown several times now, has seemingly and repeatedly fallen on deaf ears.

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DM
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2004, 10:58:53 am »

To me this city is not 'dangerous'. It is like all other cities and has several areas of higher crime and others that are not. I dont feel any less safe in Tulsa. But thats just me. I know there are some areas of town that I would not go after dark! lol!
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MH2010
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2004, 12:07:15 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by jdb

"...if they sent a unready police officer out on the street."

I was thinking more of recruiting seasoned officers from other cities, then arming green, yahoo's and pointing out towards the street.
(maybe intice them with 8x10 glossy arena renderings?)

So, we stand 39 weeks out, after reopening an academy, before a new officer hits the street?

Any provisions for the Sheriffs office picking up some of the slack?

As with all things, seems situations have to get worse before they get any better, but it also seems there has to be some kind of a stop-gap measure - short of callng in the National Guard due to some massive walk-out. Not that I see this happening, but if the City, any City, is banking on ones civic duty to stay on patrol, until all the kinks are ironed out, and that emplodes - what happens next?

jdb



Similar note:

6 street, downtown, Austin Tx. is a busy little spot. There one will see police in patrol cars, mounted on horse back, on MTN. bikes, and even a few on foot.
In addition, there is also a presence called "The something Rangers". (I can't recall their name)These were law enforcement minded kids, that wearing a uniform, armed with a radio, and working in pairs, had a beat they cover for the night: assisting people with smaller problems and calling in the bigger scuffles to the A.P.D..
Typically, they looked more like an 18 year old book worm, then a bulked up bouncer/ bruiser.
Running a club on 6th - I saw them as very helpful.
I realize all "programs" come with a price tag, but have been stumped as to why this concept, suggested for our downtown several times now, has seemingly and repeatedly fallen on deaf ears.

Tulsa,OHP,OKC and Norman make all new hires go thru their own academies whether you were a cop somewhere else or not.  You would be amazed in the difference of procedure and tactics from agency to agency.

TCSO is in the same boat as TPD. They have had a hiring freeze for some time.  There are only 100-200 patrol officers and they are extremely busy with Tulsa county areas.

TPD does have a program similar to the  Austin program.  It's called "Tulsa Police Explorers". They are used for concerts, state fair, the Tulsa Run and other big events. I don't know why they are not used downtown. I think it is a safety issue. Tulsa also has "Tulsa Police Reserves", they are unpaid commisioned police officers that volunteer their time because they enjoy the job. They usually ride with normal TPD officers.  I don't know why they don't use TPRs downtown.

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rwarn17588
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2004, 12:18:29 pm »

<start clip>

As with all things, seems situations have to get worse before they get any better, but it also seems there has to be some kind of a stop-gap measure - short of callng in the National Guard due to some massive walk-out.

<end clip>

Don't count on the Guard. It's too busy fighting an ill-advised war.
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jdb
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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2004, 01:37:49 pm »

"Don't count on the Guard." - rwarn

Ok, then until hearing back from mh2010, I am going to ask Santa for an extra box of bullets in my stocking.

One's impression of feeling safe is based on personal experience and knowledge. Niether of which take into account random acts of violence.
It's a game of odds, a roll of the dice, that is helped or harmed by location, time of day, and the number of $100.00 bills protruding from one's pockets.

That our fair city is not listed as the most dangerous place on the planet - Tom's Quick stop in Camden, NJ has that honor - is a good thing, but can also lull us into a false sense of security, no?

Remember: The difference between "feeling" safe and "being" safe could be finding oneself rolled, robbed, raped, stripped- naked, and left for dead on one's own front step.
Thus, I encourage everyone to make their lives all that much safer by canceling their subscription to the whirled, less time spent in harms way on the front step, until we have a full force back on the streets.
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Neptune
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« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2004, 05:27:41 pm »

Did someone mention the need for extra bullets?

What's everyone griping about?  If it wasn't Tulsa as "crime central" of Oklahoma....what city was it suppose to be?  Oklahoma City?....how can you have crime in a city where no one lives?  OKC has such a low density, they make Tulsa look like Oklahoma's version of Calcutta minus a few cardboard boxes and raw sewage in the streets.

And how the hell are we suppose to fix this anyway?  It's not like there's some massive amount of cash flooding into the city now...or in the near future.  Guess we're screwed.  Maybe the excess crime from casinos and lotteries will launch us into some sort of national emergency so we can get some of that good ole Fed money that doesn't exist anymore.

What we need is more call center jobs, and perhaps Jack In The Box.  Jack had a Pistrami and Swiss sandwich that was really really good.  Went there almost everyday when I lived down in Dallas.  But it was a limited time offer.  The day that I found out...was my day of "infamy."  I would have went off on them, but I didn't feel like contributing to Dallas's crime rate.
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jdb
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« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2004, 05:38:04 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by neptune74137

What we need is more call center jobs, and perhaps Jack In The Box.  


DIE, YOU GAS PUMPER!
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Neptune
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« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2004, 05:42:37 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by jdb

quote:
Originally posted by neptune74137

What we need is more call center jobs, and perhaps Jack In The Box.  


DIE, YOU GAS PUMPER!

How did you know?

My psych profile wasn't good enough to run the cash register.  But don't worry...I've been selling fire arms on the side to make ends meet.[Tongue]
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jdb
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« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2004, 06:35:57 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by neptune74137

Quote
...I've been selling fire arms on the side to make ends meet.



Any self-respecting "firearms" dealer would know it's spelled with one word.

So, you got any "Season's Greetings Discount" specials? Am thinking of a lite-weight unit for my bathrobe pocket for when I have to go check the front stoop and make sure theres no dead bodies or worse, newspapers out there.

Back to topic:

"Well, maybe there is one way for the police to lower the aggravated assault rate, put away Steve Kitchell and his out of control bar bouncers, that one action would get our crime rate lower than OKC overnight." - swake

Some total violent crime rates:
Tulsa 663.7
OKC 563.7

It would take 101 reported assaults to accomplish this - and you say "overnight"?

I don't know about that.
Unless it was an extremely hot night, in the middle of summer, as we were all told on TV, by a downtown spokesman, refering to the Eclipse riot that had 66 cops responding: that "violent rampages are to be expected on hot nights".

Still, "Overnight" seems a stretch.


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Rico
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« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2004, 07:15:42 am »

Quote
Originally posted by neptune74137

Did someone mention the need for extra bullets?


And how the hell are we suppose to fix this anyway?  It's not like there's some massive amount of cash flooding into the city now...or in the near future.  Guess we're screwed.  Maybe the excess crime from casinos and lotteries will launch us into some sort of national emergency so we can get some of that good ole Fed money that doesn't exist anymore.



_______________________________________________________

Lets see, no massive amount of money, That is a very correct statement...........
And soon as the Turkey Day thing is over Bill will be saying we need to vote to raise property taxes," What Tulsa Needs is a New Library"

Wrong,.......... I think we could wait on a new library.....!

 Why is this "blank" not asking for money to fix the Police Department??? Other public service sector items cut by his administration?Huh?

I am not like some of you that can quote to the penny how much this new improved Version of Pixie Dust will cost, but I think it would be better spent on Police and the other things that we took for granted before all this
"Cut, Tax and Spend and they will  Come"mentality came to pass.

You Can Not Wait  for the trickle down effects of building an arena, or slapping a little more lipstick on the pig before you try and sell it, to fix this.

One thing I can not resist throwing into this conversation is the fact that on the "Centennial Projects" list, we are going to build a learning center at the base of the  Big
Foot Statue.... I have not heard The Artist even has the funding portion of his project in line, and we are going to build a learning center at the base of it...

I'm Sorry, The Mayor of a Town Like Tulsa Running Around Like Somekind of a Drooling Dog, Over A Statue To Be Placed Somewhere, Hovering Over Tulsa, Sounds Like We Could Really Use A Learning Center But Not Quite As Far Away From City Hall As We Are Led To Believe..


(No Insult Intended To Either MH or the Animal Population by my reference to 1. Pig  2. Dog  )
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MH2010
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« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2004, 02:18:44 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Rico

Quote
Originally posted by neptune74137

Did someone mention the need for extra bullets?


And how the hell are we suppose to fix this anyway?  It's not like there's some massive amount of cash flooding into the city now...or in the near future.  Guess we're screwed.  Maybe the excess crime from casinos and lotteries will launch us into some sort of national emergency so we can get some of that good ole Fed money that doesn't exist anymore.



_______________________________________________________

Lets see, no massive amount of money, That is a very correct statement...........
And soon as the Turkey Day thing is over Bill will be saying we need to vote to raise property taxes," What Tulsa Needs is a New Library"

Wrong,.......... I think we could wait on a new library.....!

 Why is this "blank" not asking for money to fix the Police Department??? Other public service sector items cut by his administration?Huh?

I am not like some of you that can quote to the penny how much this new improved Version of Pixie Dust will cost, but I think it would be better spent on Police and the other things that we took for granted before all this
"Cut, Tax and Spend and they will  Come"mentality came to pass.

You Can Not Wait  for the trickle down effects of building an arena, or slapping a little more lipstick on the pig before you try and sell it, to fix this.

One thing I can not resist throwing into this conversation is the fact that on the "Centennial Projects" list, we are going to build a learning center at the base of the  Big
Foot Statue.... I have not heard The Artist even has the funding portion of his project in line, and we are going to build a learning center at the base of it...

I'm Sorry, The Mayor of a Town Like Tulsa Running Around Like Somekind of a Drooling Dog, Over A Statue To Be Placed Somewhere, Hovering Over Tulsa, Sounds Like We Could Really Use A Learning Center But Not Quite As Far Away From City Hall As We Are Led To Believe..


(No Insult Intended To Either MH or the Animal Population by my reference to 1. Pig  2. Dog  )




I wasn't offended at all. I agree with most of your post.  The mayor decided to cut public service budgets and payroll.  He has shown that he only talks about public safety but doesn't do anything about it.  When the arena is built downtown, TPD still won't have the manpower to patrol the area effectively when the "big conventions and concerts" come to town.  TPD has to use federal grant money to pay for extra officers to patrol the downtown area on weekends.  I think the city would be better served by using money from the third penny sales tax and 2025 to increase public safety efforts.  Does Tulsa really need to count on a huge broze statue that will actually be built outside of the city?  The mayor and city counsel still has not annexed the area where the statue is going to go.  Not to mention the fact that roads and other intrastructure will have to be built.  Further, the guy building the statue still doesn't even have the money to build it.  That is why OKC wasn't that interested in it in the first place.

It's also good to know that the mayor and his administration would rather fund another large library than fix the pay cuts city employees received.  I'm all for libraries but really is a new one really necessary now?  

There will always be the arguement, will more police really reduce crime?  That could be debated for hours.  However, it would be nice if the police department could become proactive instead of only reactive again. More officers mean faster reaction times and more proactive police work (stakeouts, actively patroling high crime areas, sting operations, ect)

Just so everyone knows, TPD still can not investigate hit and run incidents, if you don't know the person or didn't get the complete tag of the person who hit you, it won't be investigated.  Property crime investigation is still on the back burner.  The street crimes units are still disbanded and the detective division is still running on a skeleton crew because there isn't enough officers in the field.  Also, the substation lobbies are still closed after 5:00pm because there aren't enough officers to man the phones.  Field officers continually run at a minimum manning level so calls stack up and it takes officers longer to respond to report calls and in some incidents, high priority calls (homicides, shooting, rapes, armed robberies, domestics ect).

Have a happy thanksgiving!  Make sure your doors are locked and your garage is shut!
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