81st and Riverside

[cannon_fodder]

Surface parking South of 81st is not concern of mine.  If there were a place for surface parking lots...

[TheArtist]

I would definitely say Norman is in the OKC Metro. I cant imagine anyone thinking its not? Its right there on lol.  I would also say Wind River is as well. I did some artwork in the Wind River casino and just basically said it was in OKC. Its also interesting to note that the distance from downtown OKC to the college in Norman is almost exactly the distance from downtown Tulsa to NSU BA. I wish we had a college as large and established as the one in Norman as close as NSU BA lol. Wow, what a difference that would have made in my life during my college years here.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I would definitely say Norman is in the OKC Metro. I cant imagine anyone thinking its not? Its right there on lol.  I would also say Wind River is as well. I did some artwork in the Wind River casino and just basically said it was in OKC. Its also interesting to note that the distance from downtown OKC to the college in Norman is almost exactly the distance from downtown Tulsa to NSU BA. I wish we had a college as large and established as the one in Norman as close as NSU BA lol. Wow, what a difference that would have made in my life during my college years here.

Downtown Norman is 22miles from downtown OKC but I'm sure they appreciate you referring to them (a 100,000+ community) as OKC Metro. Note that NSU BA is only 13 miles at best. Why would you make that comparison is beyond me. When I attended we rarely had the time, transportation or money to hit the city. My son attended a few years ago and it was still the same. Thats over 30,000 of the Norman population that stays in Norman.

But whatever. I get it. Just spoke to a city PW employee today who understood my points real well. He sees it at a first tier level. Same budget as a decade ago with an increased workload but decreased taxes because 8% of that million dollars a day from one casino goes to OKC and is then returned at less than 4% to the city. The rest stays with the tribes. You all got it figured though.

Maybe Inteller can answer me this. Why are there no casinoes in your part of town? One is a mere 8 miles away from downtown, one is about 11 miles and the other about 5 miles, anchoring three corners of the city. What happened to your area? Were there no tribes there or did BA/Bixby/South Tulsa find enough sin in the rest of the city to suffice?[] Seriously. Is one planned to complete the circle?

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I would definitely say Norman is in the OKC Metro. I cant imagine anyone thinking its not? Its right there on lol.  I would also say Wind River is as well. I did some artwork in the Wind River casino and just basically said it was in OKC. Its also interesting to note that the distance from downtown OKC to the college in Norman is almost exactly the distance from downtown Tulsa to NSU BA. I wish we had a college as large and established as the one in Norman as close as NSU BA lol. Wow, what a difference that would have made in my life during my college years here.

Downtown Norman is 22miles from downtown OKC but I'm sure they appreciate you referring to them (a 100,000+ community) as OKC Metro. Note that NSU BA is only 13 miles at best. Why would you make that comparison is beyond me. When I attended we rarely had the time, transportation or money to hit the city. My son attended a few years ago and it was still the same. Thats over 30,000 of the Norman population that stays in Norman.

But whatever. I get it. Just spoke to a city PW employee today who understood my points real well. He sees it at a first tier level. Same budget as a decade ago with an increased workload but decreased taxes because 8% of that million dollars a day from one casino goes to OKC and is then returned at less than 4% to the city. The rest stays with the tribes. You all got it figured though.

Maybe Inteller can answer me this. Why are there no casinoes in your part of town? One is a mere 8 miles away from downtown, one is about 11 miles and the other about 5 miles, anchoring three corners of the city. What happened to your area? Were there no tribes there or did BA/Bixby/South Tulsa find enough sin in the rest of the city to suffice?[] Seriously. Is one planned to complete the circle?

Norman is just as much a part of OKCs metro as OKC is part of Normans metro lol. If you were in Norman you could say that OKC is part of Normans metro... and why not? Same with BA and Tulsa. Metro is metro.

Downtown OKC and the college in Norman is just about the same distance as downtown Tulsa is from the College in BA. Judge for yourself. And whether or not many people from suburb go to downtown Tulsa, doesn't change the fact that they are still in the same metro, even though they may hate the thought of it lol.

[joiei]

Downtown Tulsa is 19.3 miles from NSU Broken Arrow.  According to Google maps. I used Second and Main as my starting point.

Do you ever leave an urbanized area when driving between Norman, any exit and downtown Oklahoma City?

Downtown Bartlesville to 2nd and Main is 43.1 miles, not a great example.  Google gives it an hour to driv between the two locations.

And if it is on a sports night then add about an hour.  From my having to wait for the idiots trying to get on the freeway.  I know this because I have been there and done that. I have experienced it taking 3 hours to get from the main street entrance to the I-44 exit off of I-35 to get home.  

Now to address your questions about HOME.  

THe last time I shopped in Okmulgee, I picked up a chocolate cream pie 3 weeks ago and yes, it was well worth the drive.  Have you ever driven down to just have lunch, a burger an pie?
I have.  

A play in Claremore, you have me there, I don't get any information for Rogers State about what is happening there like I do from TU.

Shopping in Sapulpa, considering the way you asked the question you haven't done any antique shopping in that beautiful town like I did 3 weeks go.  Didnt' find anything but going to Sapulpa is a lot better than going to Blackwell.

Glenpool, I bought a carwash after filling up when I was on my way to Okmulgee.  I think the QT carwash is way better than the  carwash at 15th and Utica.  Glenpool, that is where the darn carwash is.

Your turn!

To say that casino gambling is driving the economy in Tulsa,  maybe if your a gambler.  I am not and do not spend much time there.  I have been to the Creek casino, boring and I have been to the Osage for a show, great time. But I do not see where casino gambling is driving anyones economy.  The casinos here are basically a joke.  

What is your hangup with Norman.  It is a college town, it isn't the center of the universe.  And it is the southern anchor of the OKC metropolitan region.  Paul's Valley is out of town.  Norman,  just a suburb.  

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by joiei

Downtown Tulsa is 19.3 miles from NSU Broken Arrow.  According to Google maps. I used Second and Main as my starting point.

I used Google and merely counted the main cross streets as a mile and estimated the diagonal of the BA since its not a straight shot. 1300 Aspen I believe. Couldn't be 19 miles. I've driven it in less than 15 minutes. I don't drive that fast.

Do you ever leave an urbanized area when driving between Norman, any exit and downtown Oklahoma City?

Yes. It is not contiguous unless you consider Luvs or an empty Crossroads as urbanized.

Downtown Bartlesville to 2nd and Main is 43.1 miles, not a great example.  Google gives it an hour to driv between the two locations.

Done it in 45 minutes and people tailgate me. People make the commute every day to work here or at the WalMart Distribution center. Is the WalMart distribution center part of far North Tulsa Metro or far South Bartlesville? Most of its employees are likely Tulsan's. It is as good an example as any since someone else used Harrah. Google sends you through Arkansas to get to New Orleans too. Most folks don't go that way.

And if it is on a sports night then add about an hour.  From my having to wait for the idiots trying to get on the freeway.  I know this because I have been there and done that. I have experienced it taking 3 hours to get from the main street entrance to the I-44 exit off of I-35 to get home.  

I haven't a clue what you're referring to. OU football games? Yes it takes a long time. Longer than TU games for sure.

Now to address your questions about HOME.  

THe last time I shopped in Okmulgee, I picked up a chocolate cream pie 3 weeks ago and yes, it was well worth the drive.  Have you ever driven down to just have lunch, a burger an pie?
I have.  

No. Drove through there to go down to Southern Tulsa...Henryetta.... You know, the southern part of the Metro.[]But never stopped. My point was that definitions of Metro's as defined by some government census is becoming less important as the net changes purchasing habits. How can you consider a small city as part of the nearby metro when there is little interplay other than commuting to work?

A play in Claremore, you have me there, I don't get any information for Rogers State about what is happening there like I do from TU.

Shopping in Sapulpa, considering the way you asked the question you haven't done any antique shopping in that beautiful town like I did 3 weeks go.  Didnt' find anything but going to Sapulpa is a lot better than going to Blackwell.

Actually I love Sapulpa more than most of the surrounding burbs. Especially around Christmas. They have kept their own character. They saved their old buildings instead of paving them over. They are a small town who doesn't need Tulsa to survive either. The last thing a Sapalupan(sic) would call themselves is part of Tulsa or Tulsa Metro.

Glenpool, I bought a carwash after filling up when I was on my way to Okmulgee.  I think the QT carwash is way better than the  carwash at 15th and Utica.  Glenpool, that is where the darn carwash is.

Agree strongly. I also bought gas at that QT. Now Glenpool is just part of the Jenks Metro.[]
Your turn!

To say that casino gambling is driving the economy in Tulsa,  maybe if your a gambler.  I am not and do not spend much time there.  I have been to the Creek casino, boring and I have been to the Osage for a show, great time. But I do not see where casino gambling is driving anyones economy.  The casinos here are basically a joke.  

Direct observance and discussions with some who have seen first hand how it is changing the city. These were not "gamblers" like in Vegas. These were regular folk. The parking was so full on a Wednesday nite, they had several shuttles running constantly. And this was just one of the 4 casinos around town. I watched a woman gamble on a one arm machine as she held the wheel chair of a young woman totally mentally disabled and breathing oxy. Most likely your tax dollars paying her while she gambled. You can read over their shoulders the points they have accumulated. Wasn't uncommon to see 46,000 pts having been spent. That's $45,000 dollars not going into the local economy. Did you spend that much this past year on recreation? Out of each $1 spent in a casino, 98 cents stays there. There was no laughing, no smiling, no one having fun. Stories of paychecks squandered are pretty common. My guide was a regular and shared some pretty gruesome stories.

Its not a joke when millions of dollars leave an economy already decimated by job loss. Its not a joke when every medium in town, every promotion, every fund raiser depends in part on the support of the casinoes. Without casino, hospital, QT or car dealerships, your fundraiser or promotion fails. And they are increasing their operations. Ever been up North of Minneapolis and seen every bilboard to the northern border taken by Casinoes? Its awesome. Wait till they get their hotel, ferries, golf courses and shopping all tied together and learn to effectively cooperate with each other. As a separate nation they have no fear of collusion.

 There is no going back but we have to realize that the game has changed. Development around casinoes is part of the new game. They don't care about downtown, sustainable neighborhoods or education (unless they own land for future casinoes). You don't see them opening grocery stores or movie theaters. They will now step into the corporate place that large oil vacated, but they are a separate nation. It means less tax base for the community. Less services, less maintenance. Thats no joke.

What is your hangup with Norman.  It is a college town, it isn't the center of the universe.  And it is the southern anchor of the OKC metropolitan region.  Paul's Valley is out of town.  Norman,  just a suburb.  

I love Norman. I have good memories of it. I still see it as a self sufficient city with an identity of its own. The fact that OKC has annexed huge areas and commerce is creeping towards them, doesn't make them OKCitians any more than Athens became Roman after conquest. It would surprise me if any of the locals relished being called part of the metro or just a "suburb" by those who only temporarily were residents for 4-6 years. Or who had worked there without understanding the local psyche. The Midwest City Bombers didn't change their identity either. Talk to people in Broken Arrow and infer that they are a mere Metro Tulsa suburb and get their response. Metro definitions are great for marketers, government statisticians and census miners, it just isn't very accurate for real life.

Anyway, thanks for reading and responding. I was beginning to think I was on everyone's ignore list.

[waterboy]

Artist, I noticed the highways in Tulsa seem larger than the ones in OKC on your map. Perhaps your different scaling of the two maps interfered with your judgement of distance.[] Downtown Norman is much farther away from downtown OKC than NSU/BA is from downtown Tulsa. I've driven both regularly and I assure you that I can drive from most anywhere in BA to downtown Tulsa a lot faster than that Norman/OKC trip. Imagine stuffing all those little towns like MidWest City, Dell City, Moore and Purcell etc into the space between Tulsa and BA.

[sgrizzle]

Downtown OKC -> Norman 22.9
Downtown Tulsa -> NSU BA 19.2

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Artist, I noticed the highways in Tulsa seem larger than the ones in OKC on your map. Perhaps your different scaling of the two maps interfered with your judgement of distance.[] Downtown Norman is much farther away from downtown OKC than NSU/BA is from downtown Tulsa. I've driven both regularly and I assure you that I can drive from most anywhere in BA to downtown Tulsa a lot faster than that Norman/OKC trip. Imagine stuffing all those little towns like MidWest City, Dell City, Moore and Purcell etc into the space between Tulsa and BA.

Your welcome to cut and paste the maps and put the 2 mile scales or 1 mile squares over each other and try to get the maps closer to scale lol. I have driven the OKC to Norman route many times. As for Moore and the other small towns along the highway, its one continuous thing. If it werent for signs you wouldnt know you had passed from one place to another.

Why the seeming animosity against a place being in anothers metro? I wouldn't get angry or upset if someone from BA said that Tulsa was in its metro. Because it would be true. Likewise someone from Norman could say that OKC is in its metro. And that would be true and nobody in OKC would get bent out of shape about it lol. Its not something that takes away from either cities identity or self-worth, or whatever it is that seems to upset you about the idea.

Plano is in the Dallas Metro, but Plano has its own history, unique identity and pride, etc. No big deal. I live in the Tulsa Metro, but still have my sense of pride and place, even to the point that I am a mid-town snob and have fun deriding south Tulsa at every chance I get lol. [] I was that way even when I lived in BA and Owasso lol.

[waterboy]

Grizz, where were the measurements for Norman to OKC? If you used one of the "official" measurements, that may reference the city limits where you can't even see the skyline.

Anyway, it feels strange that you folks chose one word to focus on. Metro. And passed over the issues I put forth relating to the relative impact of casinoes on the two cities. A friend of mine who moved here from California a decade ago can't understand why Oklahomans are so slow to recognize, address and make progress against what he sees as its major problems: Gambling, Drugs, Smoking, Low Wages, Graft. When I point out that Cali has the same problems, he notes, "Yes, but we are aware of it and work towards solutions. Here, it seems to be unrecognized till its too late to do anything about".

Two farmers find two horses who have escaped their corral and are wandering the highway. They are trying to identify which horse belongs to each of them. Both horses are geldings with a cropped tail. Both have a light colored swirl  around their necks. They are the same size, weight and height. The farmers argue because each description fits their horse perfectly. The farmers finally give up and decide to leave it to chance. They ask a passing stranger to arbitrarily decide. He thinks a moment and makes a suggestion. "You take the black one and you take the white one."

I won't beat this dead horse any longer. All is well in the Tulsa Metro.

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I was that way even when I lived in BA and Owasso lol.

UNCLEAN! REPENT!

[swake]

The economics of the Casinos here are very different than they are in most places. The local casinos are just that, they are locally owned and run. The profits are not going to some large out of the state company with an out of state headquarters office where the back office people are located.

The money that is gambled in the casinos around Tulsa stays in our local economy. Local people are employed in the casinos and the profits go to the local tribes who then spend the money locally. It is just moving money around; it’s not a loss to the economy. And the casinos actually bring in lots of extra money into the local economy by bringing in visitors who spend money at the casino that then gets distributed back into the local economy.

A casino may be a drain on a single person’s economic standing but not on our metro economy. A single Best Buy store with out of state offices selling products made in China has to drain far more money out of the Tulsa economy than one of those huge casinos. I would argue that the casinos are likely a pretty large net gain into the Tulsa economy when all the cash that visitors spend is figured in.

[TulsaEx]

I'd also like to add a couple of things.

1.  The state revenue that is generated by the casinos and distributed across the state is not just coming from the Tulsa casinos.  It is from all of the casinos that have signed gaming compacts to allow them to have class 3 level slot machines.  I believe this includes the two huge casinos along the Texas border, the one near Norman, the one in the NW across the border from Joplin and the ones along the Arkansas border.  The amount that the state collects will continue to grow as more and more tribes sign compacts so that they can have the class 3 machines that draw more customers.
2.  The reason OKC does not have a huge Casino economy right now is not because they are enlightened to the evils of casino gaming.  It is because of the lack of tribal lands in the OKC area.  Several tribes have tried to purchase land in OKC for a casino, but none of them have been successful because of the extra restrictions on land purchased by the tribes instead of land that was part of their original territory.  If a tribe could build in OKC, they would jump at the chance and I assure you that the casino would be very successful.
3.  While there are definitely problems with casinos, I agree with Swake.  I actually almost rather someone spend $100 at an Indian Casino where that money is split between the thousands of mid-range jobs created by the casinos and the tribes who have been building medical clinics to help out undeserved and rural populations, and the state which uses it's portion for education, than to pay $100 for a night at an OKC Thunder game where the money goes to Clay Bennett, a few overpaid athletes, a few hundred employees and a small taxed amount that goes to OKC and the state.

[waterboy]

We'll just have to take your word, Swake, regarding the amount of money coming and going and where it goes. I have no proof of my assertions either. They are different nations that happen to reside here, but no evidence that they recycle that wealth or draw in revenue from outside the region.

I appreciate your remarks too, TulsaEx, though they are not unknown to me. The quality of the jobs at casinoes at the mid level are enticing, however, their availability to the non-tribal population is a problem. The tribes discriminate by race. And I'm not so sure that their success would be guaranteed in OKC. Casinoes don't succeed everywhere. There are lots more entertainment venues there, the population is spread out over a huge area and the costs of advertising in a major media market are higher.

You did however touch on the one central issue I brought up- how the lack of concentration of casinoes in OKC, for whatever reasons, has forced different paths of development in the two cities. That much discretionary income being spent on gambling has to have an effect on the personality and direction of a city. For instance, if the Creeks had located their hotel/gambling facilities upstream by Sand Springs on the riverbank, its most likely that would be the location of the next low water dam and not Jenks.

I have now visited two of the three major casino operations here and its truly a dismal experience. I couldn't find the gorgeous women from the billboards and TV ads laughing, drinking...winning. I would recommend that more of you visit and make note. Failure to understand this component of our city's makeup could make for some errant decisionmaking on our part.