Street design

[PonderInc]

I-44 and Yale is an excellent example of the "engineer's solution."  Sure, they solved the traffic problem, but at what cost?  The road is now so wide, you would never dream of crossing it on foot or bike.  It's also so large that it creates a shocking heat island (like driving around inside a brick oven).  And there was no attempt to make the street interesting or welcoming to humans.  Just convenient for cars.

Perhaps this is understandable for an area adjacent to an interstate...but it's the same for all wide arterial streets in Tulsa.

I remember years ago someone visiting Tulsa from Europe and commenting: "Why do you make all your major streets so ugly?"  Basically, they wondered why we don't value the public spaces that we all utilize the most: our streets.

Good question.

[OurTulsa]

Will someone in City Hall remind public works and their contract crews that sidewalks are supposed to serve a function beyond as a place for large utility poles, traffic signal poles, construction warning signs...almost making the sidewalks impassable.   I know there aren't many who walk in this City but it would be nice if they didn't have blatant disregard for sidewalk space.

While I'm at it, Thanks for making 15th and Utica Av. better...all for those 30 minute gaps of traffic that back up when shifts change at St. Johns...and making the time for me to cross the street and time I'm exposed to traffic while walking in the intersection longer.  Yea, that's a better intersection now.  Why do we plan and design for extremes, particularly when it comes for cars?  It kills every aesthetic possibility.

It's a wonder we can't keep up with potholes and basic street maintenance yet we continue to program for additional streets in our City limits.  And I dare guess that not many street additions are accommodating additional tax base (paying for themselves).  We're just adding inventory to a showroom we can't afford to maintain as is even while we have old show space just rotting away.  I don't get it.  

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by OurTulsa

Will someone in City Hall remind public works and their contract crews that sidewalks are supposed to serve a function beyond as a place for large utility poles, traffic signal poles, construction warning signs...almost making the sidewalks impassable.   I know there aren't many who walk in this City but it would be nice if they didn't have blatant disregard for sidewalk space.

What, do you mean things like these aren't good for sidewalks?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by OurTulsa

Will someone in City Hall remind public works and their contract crews that sidewalks are supposed to serve a function beyond as a place for large utility poles, traffic signal poles, construction warning signs...almost making the sidewalks impassable.   I know there aren't many who walk in this City but it would be nice if they didn't have blatant disregard for sidewalk space.

While I'm at it, Thanks for making 15th and Utica Av. better...all for those 30 minute gaps of traffic that back up when shifts change at St. Johns...and making the time for me to cross the street and time I'm exposed to traffic while walking in the intersection longer.  Yea, that's a better intersection now.  Why do we plan and design for extremes, particularly when it comes for cars?  It kills every aesthetic possibility.

It's a wonder we can't keep up with potholes and basic street maintenance yet we continue to program for additional streets in our City limits.  And I dare guess that not many street additions are accommodating additional tax base (paying for themselves).  We're just adding inventory to a showroom we can't afford to maintain as is even while we have old show space just rotting away.  I don't get it.  

I've had to cross that intersection several time on foot during the last month. You're right that currently with all the impediments the construction crew has set up, it is quite a challenge. Add in the folks who insist on making an illegal left turn and you have a real mess for pedestrians. That intersection has always been a high accident corner. Sometimes I just cross a block South of it and walk through the cozy little hood there.

However, I can see that it will greatly improve the flow through that intersection. The 14th & Utica entrances/exits force traffic into that short stretch of Utica to get to the hospitals and clinics. With the changes to Cherry Street to the west of Utica, the traffic demands will only increase. St.John's has also expanded with a clinic and a nearby credit union. Putting a drive through bank there was irresponsible and the new Bumgarner commercial stuff on 14th is pretty silly too but they are reality and only serve to congest the area more. Its regrettable that a hamfisted approach to development has decimated the area for pedestrian use, but reality is that the intersection badly needed expanding to include left turn lanes. Should have been done three decades ago.

I hope they make the corner safe for pedestrians as there are still some of us who enjoy the walk along Cherry.

[pmcalk]

IMO, the real issue with "cut through" traffic in neighborhoods is not so much the cars as it is the speed of the cars.  In other cities, this is easily solved by making all intersections in residential areas four way stops.  If you have to drive a block, stop, drive a block, stop, etc...., you will only go through a neighborhood if the traffic is really, really bad, or if you need to get into the neighborhood.  Given that on any given corner in a neighborhood, you may have kids playing, people walking their dog, etc...., cars should stop at each intersection.  And the likihood that your speed would exceed 25 mph would be much less.

[TheArtist]

Some thoughts and observations on street design.
And yes, its another of my famously long, Sunday morning posts lol.

Blanket statements like, wide streets are bad, small streets are good.... well, sometimes, sometimes not.

Take 71st by the mall area. Its a wide street. Yet I have seen streets and been in cities with even wider streets that were wonderful and pedestrian friendly. The difference was, the buildings on the sides of the streets were up to the sidewalks and appropriate to the scale of the street(aka, wider streets, taller buildings, wider sidewalks). Yes its a pedestrian mess now. But lets imagine a possible future when perhaps the area continues to grow, things start building up and becoming more dense. It could happen. Then we may be fine having those wider streets and not be in the position of having to take out buildings to widen the streets like they often did in larger, older cities. If its thought of as a major corridor, and one that may evolve, we may want to encourage that evolution and growth in a certain, more pedestrian friendly, direction. The street may be fine, its whats growing up on either side of it thats perhaps not happening as it might.

 The highways.... We can think of 2 approaches. Removing them, or designing with them in mind.

Removing them/scaling them down to encourage easy crossing from one side to the next. But that supposes that its worth it to do so. That there are lots of reasons, all up and down the length of the highway to do so. As in, there is a pedestrian friendly street on one side that is cut through and is now hard to get to the pedestrian friendly street or area on the other side for instance. I dont really see that in most instances so propose some other thoughts.

When I look at our city as a whole, I can see a development scenario in which our city becomes more "nodal". Having a number of scattered "Urban Villages" or "Mini downtowns" or denser, pedestrian friendly areas. Connected by mass transit bus or rail, bike lanes,etc. Just like every street downtown doesnt have to be pedestrian friendly, shouldnt be actually. All areas and streets of the city dont have to be perfect, pedestrian friendly places, and in actuality can't be.  As long as these "nodes" are pedestrian friendly, thats what really matters. For then, for the most part, whatever you need is within walking distance in those denser nodes, or accessible by mass transit or cars to the other nodes. Even mass transit becomes more viable when there are denser nodes here and there where people will likely walk and there are more people nearby to utilize the mass transit. A highway and some suburban sprawl/neighborhoods, in this scenario are nothing more than a river and some fields between "towns". You wouldnt want to walk across them unless you were on a long trek lol.

Downtown and its IDL is a slightly different beast. But even here, perhaps our imaginations tend to be limited because of our limited experiences and our limited city at the moment. If say the arena were more connected to a great area just in front of it connected to a "node" around Bartlett Square for example. That node in and of itself could be a nice bustling, mixed use, pedestrian friendly area. If you wanted to then go to the Greenwood area, hopefully, eventually another bustling node. You just take a bus or "trolley". When I was in Paris, you didnt walk absolutely everywhere, there were nodes even within that city and would take the subway or buses to each one. There were busy, pedestrian friendly streets, and dead streets. There were bustling, pedestrian friendly areas, and areas where you wouldnt want to walk or where the distances were very far across a river, plazas, roadways, past huuuuge buildings where nobody walked, etc.  so you took mass transit or automobiles from one "node" to another.  



One last notion that occurred to me the other day though. I was thinking about Brookside and how successful it was and is becoming, and noting how that in many instances it was livelier at more times of the day and on more days than even many parts of downtown. I had made an analogy in another forum about how Brookside was in many ways a mini version of the Champs Elysee in Paris. A VERY mini version lol, but there were still similarities. They are both busy at all times of the day and evening because of the mixture of things along the street. There is stuff you do during the day like shop and dine, and stuff you do during the evenings, like shop and dine and late evenings like going to the clubs and coffee houses. There are grocery stores, and businesses, gym, offices, restaurants, barber, furniture stores, flower shop, laundry,,,, multiple reasons to go there and things that people will go to at all times of the morning, day and evenings.   And of course its pedestrian friendly. Downtown has things that happen during all times of the day and night, but not streets like that. So when I imagine us creating a bustling street downtown, our Main Sreet, our Champs Elysee or busy Brookside. I can imagine that we can do that. We can have a pedestrian friendly, mixed use, always busy street... but then something occurred to me. The other similarity between the Champs Elysee and Brookside is that they are both arterial streets. They not only serve the people who live nearby, but also get a lot of traffic flow because they are arterial streets. They are easily accessible. They are not only destinations in and of themselves, you can use them on a regular basis to get from one point to another. Easy to get to and through. They are a natural part of the flow of the city and where people go.

Downtown is kind of cut off from the natural flow. Brady Street for instance as a possible street that could become a great pedestrian friendly street, is,,, well, out of the way. Its not part of any traffic flow. It seems like that is a negative to businesses along some of those street versus other arterial streets. Streets like 21st near Utica, Utica, 15th street, Brookside, are all part of your natural "getting around" from one point to another in those areas of town. Downtown, Brady and other like streets, not so much. For it seems that at this point in our cities development our small, pedestrian friendly nodes, still could use traffic flow to help the businesses in them. Not just people coming for a game, or to the bars, and there arent enough people living right by them to make them viable either.

I go down Peoria and 21st all the time, yet downtown still seems out of the way. Not only does downtown seem to be isolated via pedestrian friendly routes from one area to another, but it also seems to be isolated via car! Those other areas I spoke of as being "urban villages" "mini downtowns" earlier would all be on the main city grid and part of our daily flow from one place to another. But not so much downtown. Its like it, and the particular street you may want to go to, is  surrounded by a moat consisting of; a river, highways, dead end streets, slummy abandoned areas, industrial sites, windy twists, one way streets, closed bridges, etc.  

Will these things really matter? Could we do more to help things, and what and where lol? Am I barking up the wrong tree and the "natural traffic flow" thing wont matter with downtown?

[Red Arrow]

I'm sure it has been mentioned before. How about making pedestrian islands to help crossing major intersections. That would make it so the pedestrial would only need to cross half the road at a time.  This would be especially useful for our citizens that are not track & field stars.

The islands could be a really wide spot in the turn lane barriers. They would need to be wide enough to give pedestrians confidence that they wouldn't get run over standing there waiting for the next crossing light.  It would be a waste of space for smaller intersections but could be good for linking one ped friendly area to another across a major arterial.

[SXSW]

I'm sure it has been mentioned before. How about making pedestrian islands to help crossing major intersections. That would make it so the pedestrial would only need to cross half the road at a time.  This would be especially useful for our citizens that are not track & field stars.

The islands could be a really wide spot in the turn lane barriers. They would need to be wide enough to give pedestrians confidence that they wouldn't get run over standing there waiting for the next crossing light.  It would be a waste of space for smaller intersections but could be good for linking one ped friendly area to another across a major arterial.

I like this idea for 11th through the TU campus, and possibly extended further east and especially west.  When I was living in Denver I lived near DU's campus, which is very similar in many ways to TU.  A major through street (Evans) cut right through the campus.  To make it easier for pedestrians to cross several lights were put at intersections as well as a landscaped median to make the crossing of 4 lanes not so daunting.  This would be a big improvement on 11th, IMO.  That and at least one more lighted intersection between Delaware and Harvard (at Florence). 

[nathanm]

I like this idea for 11th through the TU campus, and possibly extended further east and especially west.  When I was living in Denver I lived near DU's campus, which is very similar in many ways to TU.  A major through street (Evans) cut right through the campus.  To make it easier for pedestrians to cross several lights were put at intersections as well as a landscaped median to make the crossing of 4 lanes not so daunting.  This would be a big improvement on 11th, IMO.  That and at least one more lighted intersection between Delaware and Harvard (at Florence). 

They already put a light between Evanston and College at the 11th street vehicular entrance.

[TheTed]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by OurTulsa</i>

Will someone in City Hall remind public works and their contract crews that sidewalks are supposed to serve a function beyond as a place for large utility poles, traffic signal poles, construction warning signs...almost making the sidewalks impassable.   I know there aren't many who walk in this City but it would be nice if they didn't have blatant disregard for sidewalk space.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

What, do you mean things like these aren't good for sidewalks?

I usually move those things when I see something like that. Too bad there's a fence right next to that sidewalk, so there's nowhere to move them. There are plenty of downtown surface lot owners who put their big parking signs on the sidewalk. I usually help them out by moving them.

I do wonder if in the history of Tulsa, anyone has ever been ticketed for blocking the sidewalk? Does the parking enforcement guy even know that's a violation? Makes me want to volunteer as a parking cop. I could write a half-dozen tickets a day without even trying. Just attempt to walk down Cheyenne during a BOK Center event and you'll see a several people parked across the sidewalk.

[SXSW]

They already put a light between Evanston and College at the 11th street vehicular entrance.

There should be another in addition to this one.  Florence is a good place because it connects to the pedestrian walkway next to Chapman Stadium and to leads into the heart of campus.  If TU built its new housing above retail storefronts along 11th this and the light at Tucker Dr. (at the "U") would be the primary paths across 11th, in addition to Delaware and Harvard.  Look no further than OU and Boyd Street for how a campus and mixed-use retail environment can coexist across the street from each with positive flow between the two.

[Conan71]

There should be another in addition to this one.  Florence is a good place because it connects to the pedestrian walkway next to Chapman Stadium and to leads into the heart of campus.  If TU built its new housing above retail storefronts along 11th this and the light at Tucker Dr. (at the "U") would be the primary paths across 11th, in addition to Delaware and Harvard.  Look no further than OU and Boyd Street for how a campus and mixed-use retail environment can coexist across the street from each with positive flow between the two.

Another light? Two blocks away?  Are you serious, or are students too lazy to walk two blocks out of their way for a safe crossing?

[SXSW]

Another light? Two blocks away?  Are you serious, or are students too lazy to walk two blocks out of their way for a safe crossing?

It would help slow traffic down.  With 11th by TU in its current form the light at Tucker is fine, but if TU wanted to create more of a mixed-use development across the street they would need the other light at Florence. 

Does anyone know who is in charge of their facilities and development?  I would like to send them some of my ideas for that area. 

[YoungTulsan]

Just to slow traffic down?   Let's not pretend you are interested in traffic flow - that is simply an issue of your dislike of people driving cars in general and the thought of the solution being to make things more difficult on the drivers so they'll say "Gee, I guess I was wrong to drive this carbon burning leviathan".

My interest in traffic calming is so I can actually have a smoother drive across town AND get to my destination quicker.

[SXSW]

My interest in traffic calming is so I can actually have a smoother drive across town AND get to my destination quicker.

My interest is in creating pedestrian-friendly environments and promoting alternative transportation such as bicycling and transit use.  Agree to disagree.