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January 20, 2019, 03:50:08 am
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Author Topic: Better Streetlights for Tulsa  (Read 156942 times)
Hoss
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« Reply #465 on: November 10, 2018, 02:25:10 pm »

People are surprised to find out that HP Sodium actually has blues and greens in its spectra (whereas amber LEDs dont), but lighting salesmen portrayed that as ugly compared to their new "white" lights (because the bluish-gray pallor in the sky from "white" lights isnt ugly?)



New street lights illuminating Blue Dome District
https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/smallbusiness/new-street-lights-illuminating-blue-dome-district/article_a467f80d-1c5e-5d58-a506-aee7e772f7fa.html

The city of Tulsa contracted Crossland Heavy Contractors to do the work, which replaced the acorn-style street lamps. The job was funded through the Blue Dome Tax Increment Financing District, which was created in 2003 to stimulate development in a nine-block area.


FWIW I like these flat-lens Domus fixtures MUCH better than the acorns, but I like the warm-white 3000K version even more.







I've switched all the light bulbs in my house to the 2700K leds.  That's close to warm-white right?  It seems that way.  I initially was buying ones that seemed way too blue.
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patric
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« Reply #466 on: November 10, 2018, 05:35:57 pm »

I've switched all the light bulbs in my house to the 2700K leds.  That's close to warm-white right?  It seems that way.  I initially was buying ones that seemed way too blue.

You are spot on.  
The biggest mistake most people make picking LEDs is not realizing that "daylight" bulbs are a lot bluer than the incandescent bulbs they are replacing.  They might be suited for a kitchen or garage but not living spaces.  

Outdoors, blue-rich lights are horrendous.  A warm white light at night might be neighbor-friendly while a daylight bulb of the same intensity might be totally unacceptable, due to the dark-adapted eyes' greater sensitivity to blue (Scotopic vision).

Im noticing what might be a trend among realtors to use daylight bulbs everywhere to give a home a "sparkle" when showing the property in the daytime, but that effect becomes ghoulish when the sun goes down.

Aesthetics aside, light color affects us biologically (as it does all living things). You dont want your lighting to continually push your Circadian Rhythm button telling you its wake-up time when its close to bedtime.  Daylight is for daytime.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 05:40:45 pm by patric » Logged

"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
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« Reply #467 on: November 10, 2018, 07:29:12 pm »

You are spot on.  
The biggest mistake most people make picking LEDs is not realizing that "daylight" bulbs are a lot bluer than the incandescent bulbs they are replacing.  They might be suited for a kitchen or garage but not living spaces.  

Outdoors, blue-rich lights are horrendous.  A warm white light at night might be neighbor-friendly while a daylight bulb of the same intensity might be totally unacceptable, due to the dark-adapted eyes' greater sensitivity to blue (Scotopic vision).

Im noticing what might be a trend among realtors to use daylight bulbs everywhere to give a home a "sparkle" when showing the property in the daytime, but that effect becomes ghoulish when the sun goes down.

Aesthetics aside, light color affects us biologically (as it does all living things). You dont want your lighting to continually push your Circadian Rhythm button telling you its wake-up time when its close to bedtime.  Daylight is for daytime.



I have some tunable smart bulbs in lamps. With an app they can be changed anywhere between 2700 to 6500.

I also have RGB bulbs in all my outdoor fixtures and in my path lights and lights in my flower beds so I have instant holiday lighting anytime I want.
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Cetary
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« Reply #468 on: November 11, 2018, 07:48:59 am »

To add on to Patric's recommendation for various color temperature use cases indoors, I would recommend a CCT no higher then 3500K anywhere. 3500K is a relatively pleasing neutral white in contrast to 2700K. It is nowhere nearly as truly ugly and jarring as 2700K and 5000K+ combination setups. The California Lighting Technical Center at UC Davis advises no more then 3500K anywhere in residential projects. On a side note, that group advised Davis in its pioneering usage of the warm 2700K street lighting in the GreenCobra Jr. But on the subject, I purchased 3500K A19 bulbs for my friend's bathroom that originally was using 5000K everywhere, and she loves the 3500K. People don't realize that there's a wide range of CCT's between 2700K and 5000K that is underutilized. I support Patric's original statement on the blue-rich LEDs, they don't belong anyplace people are at night.  

Also wanted to elaborate on Patric's statement on the 5000K LED lamp. The 5000K LED is *marketed* as daylight, but the actual typical SPD of 5000K LED looks almost nothing like actual sunlight. The CRI values aren't any higher then the typical 80 CRI, and they don't even touch on the R9 and R12 values of a black body radiator. The R9 value determines how well a white light source reproduces saturated reds. Residential grade LED lighting typically has single digit to the teens R9 values, and blue-rich high CCT LEDs have shown R9 values so poor they actually register in the negative range. That means things like skin tones look really pale and washed out. That's leaving out how ghoulish 5000K is by itself at night. Sunlight, by the way, has perfect R9 and R12 and a perfect 100 CRI as does the warm white 2700K incandescent. I just had a another friend that thought his 5000K LED's were somehow objectively better white light then 2700K incandescent by looking more subjectively 'white.' I had to correct him on that.

It also looks like hotels now are using 5000K too now. The last hotel I stayed at in Seattle had 5000K everywhere...even the clockface was 5000K. I brought my own custom built 2700K 90 CRI/50 R9 flashlights to light the room after dark. Keep in mind flashlights have gotten way more powerful since lithiuim batteries and LED, so there's usable output for long runtimes now. Walking down the hallways and seeing rooms with open doors lit in 5000K was a very shocking experience. Their lights were literally just blue, like *so* blue. I really emphasize this, there is so much blue content in a 5000K LED. And this hotel was exposing all its guests to this.


On another note, it looks like we may be looking at the future of street lighting in Austria.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9tMAvjc3VA

Warm white along the mains and amber residential and low traffic areas.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 08:14:42 am by Cetary » Logged
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« Reply #469 on: November 19, 2018, 10:11:03 am »

Just when you think Tulsa leaders get it...

It looks like the glare-prone Acorn lights removed from the Blue Dome district may be another hand-me-down for the Kendall-Whittier district.  There' probably so glad to get anything called a "streetlight" that they dont care what a poor job they do actually lighting the street.

The city should NOT be installing more Acorn glare bombs, new or used.
If you want to re-purpose them, acknowledge that decorative lights should have a decorative intensity and dont try to use them as the sole source of street illumination. 1,000 Lumens tops.


The Kendall-Whittier area's portion of Route 66 may get a little brighter soon. The Tulsa Route 66 Commission Chair Ed Sharrer has his eye on some gently used lights. The lights were recently replaced in upgrades for the Blue Dome District.

The City of Tulsa has approved reusing the lights. Sharrer says the commission will ask Tulsa County to release Vision 2025 money from a nearly $700-thousand fund for overruns on the Route 66 Experience Museum and Visitor Center.

The Route 66 Experience has not been started yet. Sharrer says installing new street lights around Whittier Square may run around $160-thousand.

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/recycled-light-kendall-whittier
https://kendallwhittierinc.org/
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« Reply #470 on: November 19, 2018, 03:57:23 pm »

Old Blue Dome Lights May Reappear on Route 66 in Kendall-Whitter Area

Tulsa’s Kendall-Whittier district is getting new street lighting that may look familiar.

Tulsa Route 66 Commission Chair and Kendall Whittier Main Street Executive Director Ed Sharrer said the city just finished installing new lights downtown in the Blue Dome District.

"It created a situation where the city had, now, gently used lights. And in Kendall Whittier, we have needed pedestrian-level street lighting for a long time. We’re a very active district, a very pedestrian-friendly district," Sharrer said.

The acorn lights fit the Route 66 aesthetic and are sitting in a downtown city yard for the taking. To pay for their installation, the Route 66 commission will ask Tulsa County to release Vision 2025 money from a nearly $700,000 fund for overruns on the Route 66 Experience museum and visitor center.

"There would be just enough funds to peel aside for this lighting project and still leave a good, healthy reserve for contingency on that project," Sharrer said.

The Route 66 Experience has not been started yet. Installation of the lights in Kendall-Whittier is estimated to cost around $160,000.

They would be installed along Admiral Boulevard and Lewis Avenue around Whittier Square.

"But, you know, as we grow over time, then, hopefully, we will have need for even more lighting in the future," Sharrer said.


https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/old-blue-dome-lights-may-reappear-route-66-kendall-whitter-area


Acorn lights might "fit the Route 66 aesthetic" but only in the daytime.  At night the high-intensity glare is anything but historic (acorns were nowhere near as bright) or safe (producing dangerous eye-level glare).

There are so many better choices for street lighting today that produce better, safer, more useful light for much less electricity, but our experiences with the Gathering Place or Cherry Street didnt serve as a lesson. 

Fortunately the taxpayers pick up the tab for the power bill and any future lawsuits. /s
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« Reply #471 on: December 17, 2018, 05:36:00 pm »

I have some tunable smart bulbs in lamps. With an app they can be changed anywhere between 2700 to 6500.

I also have RGB bulbs in all my outdoor fixtures and in my path lights and lights in my flower beds so I have instant holiday lighting anytime I want.

I shunned those for a while mainly because I dont own a bar, which quite frankly seemed to be the most practical use for them. 
They have come a long way since then, in terms of technological advance and practical home use.  When Phillips solved the "Power-On Behavior" with their Hue line (so they dont come on full brightness after a power bump) I was onboard, and see them as a likely candidate to replace the X-10 lighting controls I've been using since the 1970's.

For some folks, smart bulbs are their introduction to color temperature.  Being able to brighten and dim from your smartphone isnt enough once you can use that same control to shift the color temperature as well.

But this is a discussion of municipal street lighting, so I would be remiss if I didnt mention that there are modern LED streetlights that also do that, and "talk" to one another and relay commands to one another like color, intensity, and the status of the fixtures health.

Or we can just be thrilled we got some first-generation DOE welding-torch-like LEDs that weigh in at a hot blue 6000K for Tulsa streets.

I know we have people with vision that arent satisfied with just using whatever the salesmen has in the warehouse, and manage to make inroads here and there, but for Gods sake Tulsa is still installing Acorns as primary street lighting.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
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