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Author Topic: Better Streetlights for Tulsa  (Read 110309 times)
patric
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« Reply #195 on: December 20, 2012, 01:31:51 pm »

A city engineer failing miserably at defending a switch from Sodium streetlights to blue-rich LEDs:
(my comments in green)


Nov. 29, 2011
To: Chris Morrill, Roanoke city manager
From Suzun Hughes
Hi Chris,
We have new blue light street lights downtown. Is this an economy measure?
The lights are annoying and do not create the same soft ambiance as the yellow lights. Why has this been done?
Suzun Hughes
WILSON HUGHES gallery & studios






Nov. 29, 2011
To: Suzun Hughes
From: Mark Jamison, Manager of Transportation, City of Roanoke
Ms. Hughes,
The City is in the process of changing out the city-owned street lights downtown from high pressure sodium bulbs to LED bulbs.  We are taking advantage of a rebate offer from AEP that will cover a portion of the cost of these bulbs.
More importantly, we expect to reduce our monthly power bills.  Preliminary information suggests a savings of about 60-70 percent per month.  Additionally, given the age and condition of the high pressure sodium lights, the LED bulbs will reduce our maintenance efforts on these lights and will ensure that more lights are on for longer periods of time.
You are correct that the color of the light changes. The LED’s produce a more uniform light and eliminates some of the bright and dark spots that are a product of the high pressure sodium lights. Public safety officials believe this enhances visibility from a safety perspective as the light produced is closer to the natural light spectrum.
I trust that this helps to answer your questions.
Mark D. Jamison, P.E.
Manager of Transportation
1802 Courtland Road
Roanoke, Virginia 24012

(There's nothing inherent about LED's that make them "more uniform" or "eliminate bright and dark spots that are a product of the high pressure sodium lights."
That's more a function of fixture optics, fixture placement, and inappropriate choices of intensity.
You can have an LED installation that does what the engineer describes, but it involves more than just the boilerplate sales pitch he's parroting).




Dec. 9, 2011
To: Suzun Hughes
From: Mark Jamison, Manager of Transportation, City of Roanoke
Hi Mark
Thank you for your detailed response to my question. Here is my empirical data.
1. Friday night as we were in our gallery for ART by Night until 9 PM we were able to observe the difference between the LED’s and the high pressure sodium lights. From the inside the gallery at street level we found that we were not as able to see the pedestrians on the street even right in front of our gallery.
2. About 10 PM we walked to a restaurant and were able to experience the difference as a pedestrian between the LED’s and high pressure sodium lights. The high pressure sodium lights provided much more visibility as a pedestrian. Perhaps the LED’s are not installed correctly?
3. The LED lights as seen from our second floor living space are very harsh. When looking out the window, the light bulb is extremely prominent, in an offensive way.
4. Since both light types are currently installed it is easy to see the difference between the  LED’s vs high pressure sodium lights. The color of the lights changes the atmosphere downtown from friendly to cold, from quaint to antiseptic. I question the economic advantage of the  LED’s as a trade off for creating a pleasant downtown appearance.
I request that you all walk the streets after dark to experience the difference firsthand between the  LED’s and the high pressure sodium lights.
Thank you.
Suzun Hughes

————————————————-

Dec. 9, 2011
To: Suzun Hughes
From: Mark Jamison, Manager of Transportation, City of Roanoke
Ms. Hughes,
Thanks for your comments.  I’m sorry that you are less than satisfied with the changes.  Our observations are that lighting levels are comparable to those with the high pressure sodium lights.
As I had indicated in my initial email, the lighting appears different as the LED’s provide more uniform lighting. (but acorns provide more glare and wasted uplight)
We do feel that these changes are an important component in reducing energy consumption as well as the City’s carbon footprint.  Both are consistent with the City’s overall goals for sustainability.
Mark D. Jamison, P.E.


(The eye is several times more sensitive to blue light at night than it is to orange light, so a lumen-for-lumen comparison is meaningless, and deceptive)

——————————————————

Dec. 10, 2011
From: Suzun Hughes
To: Mark Jamison, Manager of Transportation, City of Roanoke
Mark-
I applaude the City’s  effort to reduce energy consumption as well as it’s carbon footprint. And while I disagree with the ascetic decision to change from warm yellow to cold blue, I feel that the larger issue is the lack of light on the street.
Yes the LED’s provide more uniform lighting but less light on the sidewalk. The light is directed up to the second story of the buildings.
If you stand at the corner of 1st and Campbell you can see the difference. The lower level of light on the sidewalk is potentially dangerous to pedestrian safety.
Perhaps  a different bulb can be used which would direct the light down to the sidewalk? Have your observations been made after dark?
Suzun Hughes


(She is describing the poor optical performance [glare, uplight] of an Acorn light [pictured] at eye-level, that probably replaced a Sodium light that was mounted higher up on a pole.  As for after-dark observations... it's surprising how few planners and engineers dont bother to consider nighttime performance, or how well a streetlight actually lights a street beyond a calculation on paper.  As is often the case with Acorn-style lights, they are simply chosen for how attractive they look in the daytime)

This came from http://blogs.roanoke.com/dancasey/2011/12/guest-post-unhappy-with-new-blue-street-lights-downtown/  and there are additional comments.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 01:43:18 pm by patric » Logged

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« Reply #196 on: December 20, 2012, 02:36:44 pm »

Why don't they shield the top of the acorn so the light goes to the ground instead of the sky. Shield kits for those type of acorns are fairly inexpensive :/
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« Reply #197 on: December 20, 2012, 03:06:44 pm »

Who can I complain to about the fact that they remodeled a McDonalds at 91st and Memorial and installed a permanent rotating searchlight on the roof? I expect Lady Soundtrack underneath it offering half-off tape decks.
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« Reply #198 on: December 20, 2012, 11:26:25 pm »

Who can I complain to about the fact that they remodeled a McDonalds at 91st and Memorial and installed a permanent rotating searchlight on the roof? I expect Lady Soundtrack underneath it offering half-off tape decks.



Go to Neighborhood Inspections at
http://www.cityoftulsa.org/reporting/advertising-sign-violations.aspx

And reference this ordinance:

Zoning Code of the City of Tulsa, Title 42
SECTION 1410. STROBE AND BEACON LIGHTS
Strobe and beacon lights, if visible from a public street, shall be removed immediately,
unless otherwise required by law.




http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=13198.msg232493#msg232493

« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 11:40:14 pm by patric » Logged

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« Reply #199 on: December 20, 2012, 11:50:15 pm »

Who can I complain to about the fact that they remodeled a McDonalds at 91st and Memorial and installed a permanent rotating searchlight on the roof? I expect Lady Soundtrack underneath it offering half-off tape decks.

The McDonald's in Jenks did the same thing about a year ago.  Shall we say it "caught my attention" the first time it lit up the inside of my airplane while I was in the pattern.  I "mentioned" it to the (airport) control tower.  I haven't noticed it from the ground lately so it may not still be there.

91st and Memorial is close enough to the approach for 36R at TUL that the airlines may complain about it.
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patric
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« Reply #200 on: December 20, 2012, 11:59:04 pm »

Why don't they shield the top of the acorn so the light goes to the ground instead of the sky. Shield kits for those type of acorns are fairly inexpensive :/

Putting a lid over it does nothing to abate the disabling glare in your eyes.
This is what you want to accomplish:





"Acorn"-style lights were fine 100 years ago when gaslight and early incandescent light was the norm.
Trying to put modern high-intensity light in something that emits light at eye-level is just foolish.
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patric
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« Reply #201 on: January 14, 2013, 01:41:04 pm »

Another chance to get it right:


The Tulsa County Parks Department plans to begin replacing the lights at LaFortune Park this spring with work expected to be completed in early summer.
The Board of County Commissioners voted Monday to let the project out for bids.

Parks Director Richard Bales said all of the park’s 114 lights and light posts would be replaced with LED lights and new, taller light posts. In addition, two new LED lights will be added to the park’s picnic area along Yale Avenue.
The lights have not been replaced since they were installed in the mid-1980s, Bales said.

Bales said he believes the park has adequate lighting and that the taller light posts — along with the brighter LED lights — would only make the lighting better.
County Commissioner Fred Perry said in a press release that he has received several requests for more lighting along the park’s trails.
“I asked our park director to make the necessary improvements,” Perry said. “The Tulsa County Parks and Engineering departments have worked to make it a reality.”

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20130114_334_0_TheTul564979

This is a big opportunity to cut down on glare there, but they also need to consider that older LED lights are blue and uninviting. 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:45:01 pm by patric » Logged

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« Reply #202 on: January 15, 2013, 02:13:31 pm »

A follow-up to the above post; the county was kind enough to list the model fixture that they plan to use at LaFortune Park.

Its the "GreenCobra" by Leotek
http://www.leotek.com/products/documents/ci/Leotek.GC.Brochure.020712.811.pdf

Good news it's a Full-Cutoff Optics (FCO) shielded light that should go a long way towards reducing vision-robbing glare.  That's a big issue on the jogging trail because reducing glare increases your ability to see further and clearer at light.   That, in turn, makes it easier to assess any threats or hazards ahead.

Bad news is, it's a tad blue:


The manufacturer promotes the model which has a color temperature of 4300 degrees Kelvin, which is much "colder" than the ideal 3000K (incandescent) available on special order.
I can understand the need to get energy-efficient lights up asap, and other than garish color, there's no reason to believe these are not good light fixtures.  We may have to put up with gradually colder-looking and less inviting landscapes until the LED manufacturers do a better job of promoting their warmer-color lights.
 

« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 11:51:26 pm by patric » Logged

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« Reply #203 on: February 07, 2013, 04:18:41 pm »

What the? I like the Mercury lights, I don't like the orange glow of Sodium lights. Orange lights are fine for Halloween, but not for street lighting. I think the Mercury lighting is far better. I'd like to have all street lighting changed back over to Mercury lights.
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« Reply #204 on: February 07, 2013, 04:25:11 pm »

A follow-up to the above post; the county was kind enough to list the model fixture that they plan to use at LaFortune Park.

Its the "GreenCobra" by Leotek
http://www.leotek.com/products/documents/ci/Leotek.GC.Brochure.020712.811.pdf

Good news it's a Full-Cutoff Optics (FCO) shielded light that should go a long way towards reducing vision-robbing glare.  That's a big issue on the jogging trail because reducing glare increases your ability to see further and clearer at light.   That, in turn, makes it easier to assess any threats or hazards ahead.

Bad news is, it's a tad blue:


The manufacturer promotes the model which has a color temperature of 4300 degrees Kelvin, which is much "colder" than the ideal 3000K (incandescent) available on special order.
I can understand the need to get energy-efficient lights up asap, and other than garish color, there's no reason to believe these are not good light fixtures.  We may have to put up with gradually colder-looking and less inviting landscapes until the LED manufacturers do a better job of promoting their warmer-color lights.
 


IMO lighting on the jogging trail does not do much and those new lights they installed on the RiverSide jogging trail were over $5,000.00 a piece. I'd rather have less frills and use that money saved to expand the jogging trail farther south past 101st street, and widen up the rest of the jogging trail. We still have a few sections of trail that has not been made wider and updated. What about better mile markers, there are sections of the trail south of I-44 with no mileage markers. Let's do the major important stuff first, then if money is left over it can be invested in the frills. or so it seems to me...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 04:26:55 pm by sauerkraut » Logged

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« Reply #205 on: February 11, 2013, 09:22:31 am »

I would argue that trail lighting increases usage much more than mile markers do. Most people have smart phones with GPS enabled running applications to track their mileage and don't need to rely on physical markers.

Also the span just south of I-44 will be rehabilitated, this was just postponed for the I44 Bridge widening and flood mitigation projects to finish first.
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« Reply #206 on: February 11, 2013, 11:23:57 pm »

IMO lighting on the jogging trail does not do much and those new lights they installed on the RiverSide jogging trail were over $5,000.00 a piece. I'd rather have less frills and use that money saved to expand the jogging trail farther south past 101st street, and widen up the rest of the jogging trail. We still have a few sections of trail that has not been made wider and updated. What about better mile markers, there are sections of the trail south of I-44 with no mileage markers. Let's do the major important stuff first, then if money is left over it can be invested in the frills. or so it seems to me...

I would argue that mile markers and nicer trails are "frills" while the lighting is necessary.
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« Reply #207 on: February 22, 2013, 09:24:04 am »

Patrick, any opinions on the micro algae lights being developed?

Biochemist creates CO2-eating light that runs on algae

http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/biochemist-creates-co2-eating-light-that-runs-on-algae-2012055/



Quote
Our atmosphere is filling up with CO2 and we seem to be the major cause of that. The generally accepted solution seems to be cutting back on emissions as quickly as possible, but implementing such cuts is problematic because everyone has to agree to do more, which essentially ends up costing a lot of time and money.

There is an alternative to such measures, though. Instead of relying entirely on cutting emissions, why don’t we start taking CO2 out of the atmosphere? That’s exactly what biochemist Pierre Calleja is trying to do, and his solution almost sounds too good to be true.

Calleja has developed a lighting system that requires no electricity for power. Instead it draws CO2 from the atmosphere and uses it to produce light as well as oxygen as a byproduct. The key ingredient to this eco-friendly light? Algae.

Certain types of algae can feed off of organic carbon as well as sunlight, and in the process produce carbohydrate energy for themselves as well as oxygen as a waste product.

Cajella’s lamps consist of algae-filled water along with a light and battery system. During the day the algae produce energy from sunlight that is then stored in the batteries. Then at night the energy is used to power the light. However, as the algae can also produce energy from carbon, sunlight isn’t required for the process to work. That means such lights can be placed where there is no natural light and the air will effectively be cleaned on a daily basis.

What isn’t discussed in the video is how much maintenance such a light needs. However, the good news is algae can also act as a biofuel once separated from the water, so even if the lights need a water change out every so often, the waste algae just forms another type of fuel where as the water can be recycled.
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patric
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« Reply #208 on: February 22, 2013, 11:44:42 am »

Patrick, any opinions on the micro algae lights being developed?

That would look cooler in my family room than on poles over intersections  Wink

Bio-luminescence sofar works with Scotopic vision (blue-green night vision sensitivity) so barring a breakthrough, it's just an interesting piece of furniture. 
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« Reply #209 on: February 22, 2013, 01:38:25 pm »

That would look cooler in my family room than on poles over intersections  Wink

Bio-luminescence sofar works with Scotopic vision (blue-green night vision sensitivity) so barring a breakthrough, it's just an interesting piece of furniture. 

Too bad.  I was envisioning everyone bathed in Green Lantern ring light.
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