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Author Topic: Better Streetlights for Tulsa  (Read 110396 times)
patric
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« Reply #120 on: February 06, 2011, 04:07:20 pm »

I should have asked earlier but didn't.  Did the gas lamps use a mantle or wick?

Mantle or open flame.  They were around for a while.
Wicks are for liquid fuels.
Acorns were the electric incandescent replacement for gas.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
patric
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« Reply #121 on: February 24, 2011, 12:07:37 am »

From a city-wide survey of Tulsans:

Only 29 percent of the Tulsans surveyed said they felt safe walking around the city at night.  That could account for a rise in criminal activity after dark.  Or bad neighborhood lighting giving the "perception" it's not safe out there.

After seeing the city survey, Mayor Bartlett says there are neighborhoods with bad lighting, but also areas with good lighting and they didn't receive good marks either.

"There is some kind of perception problem that we need to address."

The survey noted it could be a sign of criminals just being more active at night.

Westcott says if you consider the statistics from the police department, people really are safe in their neighborhoods, most crimes that occurs are not at random.

But he acknowledges the perception problems and feels it's Council's job to do what they can to make people feel safe.
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/City-Of-Tulsa-Survey-Results/uk04UCxVw0m5EtjbS-3NJw.cspx



That traditionally has meant adding street lighting that was more effective at pacifying complaints than lighting streets ...or having any effect on crime.

That will probably be the default solution for the foreseeable future, but it doesn't necessarily mean that even street lighting installed for the wrong reasons has to be energy-wasting, glare-prone junk.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
Conan71
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« Reply #122 on: February 24, 2011, 10:19:48 am »


But he acknowledges the perception problems and feels it's Council's job to do what they can to make people feel safe.
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/City-Of-Tulsa-Survey-Results/uk04UCxVw0m5EtjbS-3NJw.cspx[/font]


Has David Pauling weighed in yet (pardon the pun)?  He might determine that's not the council's job either.
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patric
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« Reply #123 on: February 24, 2011, 01:20:25 pm »

Has David Pauling weighed in yet (pardon the pun)?  He might determine that's not the council's job either.

There's actually no ordinance requiring any of Tulsa's streets to be lighted.  It's been pretty much left to the people selling electricity to decide how much we need to buy.  Public Works pretty much waves it on.
That's not to say we shouldnt, but since we do, we should do it sensibly and within our means.

Now, I know there are some in Public Works that know how to do better and wish they could, but if there were an award right now for the most clueless city entity when it comes to outdoor and security lighting it might be Tulsa Public Schools. 
Unless there is another more deserving?
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« Reply #124 on: February 24, 2011, 01:32:18 pm »

Has David Pauling weighed in yet (pardon the pun)?  He might determine that's not the council's job either.

I thought he ruled that there is no city council per his reading of the Charter?
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patric
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« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2011, 11:58:06 pm »

I'm liking this guy more all the time:

Thieves are always prowling parking lots looking for anyone leaving their stuff out in the open.

In this case the thieves break into cars under street lights.
"That just helps them see what's inside,” says Tulsa Police Burglary Sergeant Brandon Watkins.


http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Thieves-Could-Target-NCAA-Fans/lImKfJt9GU-CasQ7w_vtiw.cspx

We've spent a lot of money over the years installing the wrong lights for the wrong reasons.
Bravo to Sgt. Watkins for breaking out of the "any light is a good light, and the more the better" mold with a sensible observation.
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« Reply #126 on: March 15, 2011, 09:53:49 am »

I'm liking this guy more all the time:

Thieves are always prowling parking lots looking for anyone leaving their stuff out in the open.

In this case the thieves break into cars under street lights.
"That just helps them see what's inside,” says Tulsa Police Burglary Sergeant Brandon Watkins.


http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Thieves-Could-Target-NCAA-Fans/lImKfJt9GU-CasQ7w_vtiw.cspx

We've spent a lot of money over the years installing the wrong lights for the wrong reasons.
Bravo to Sgt. Watkins for breaking out of the "any light is a good light, and the more the better" mold with a sensible observation.

There's still other good safety issues from the lights like keeping you from stepping in a hole or tripping over a crack in the sidewalk.  People who leave valuable items sitting out in the open in their car has more to do with getting broken into than the lighting.  Don't be a moron and leave a smart phone, laptop, or MP3 player sitting on the passenger seat of your car.
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patric
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« Reply #127 on: March 15, 2011, 10:23:25 am »

There's still other good safety issues from the lights like keeping you from stepping in a hole or tripping over a crack in the sidewalk.  People who leave valuable items sitting out in the open in their car has more to do with getting broken into than the lighting. 

All valid points.  Good lighting (free of glare) helps you identify hazards and threats, but some people will go to extremes thinking light repels evil, and that it's a good idea to spotlight your valuables believing thieves wont make use of that.  Just as true for streetlights as it is for "security" lighting at parking lots and residences.

Interesting that when citizens contact their councilors or the city to have more streetlights installed, they cite "preventing crime" more often than "being able to see in the street" as the reason.
That perception is what leads people to showcase their valuables under bright lights, often achieving the opposite effect they hoped for.

Don't be a moron and leave a smart phone, laptop, or MP3 player sitting on the passenger seat of your car.

A far better solution.

Streetlights should be warranted for the purpose of seeing better, not as modern-day garlic wreath over the door.
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« Reply #128 on: March 22, 2011, 09:54:08 am »

I borrowed this photo from another thread (but posted it here as to not hijack the discussion) but it illustrates what Ive been referring to as a "dual" street lighting system, where you have high-mounted shielded fixtures that do the job of lighting the streets, and much lower-intensity post-top lights for pedestrian scale or aesthetics.


Yes, the tall cobra-head lights are full-cutoff (you can tell by the flat lens, as opposed to the drop-lens we use around here).  If the Acorns in this photo are moderate-intensity sources like compact fluorescent (in the neighborhood of 1000 Lumens) this would be a very eye-friendly arrangement.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
patric
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« Reply #129 on: May 07, 2011, 05:10:53 pm »

It's not like any of the folks at the TulsaNow forum have ever discussed this...

Mayor Dewey Bartlett is launching a “Lights On” initiative to improve street lighting across the city, with a particular focus on residential areas.

Bartlett has established a committee to study the issue. It will be led by mayoral aide Chris Benge and include members of the Traffic Operations Division, Mayor’s Action Center, Tulsa Police Department, Working in Neighborhoods, Office of Sustainability and others.

The group is supposed to make its recommendations shortly after the July 1 start of the new fiscal year.

If not for a recent scientific survey of Tulsans, Bartlett said, the issue would not have been on his radar.

“This is a perfect example of the citizens telling us what they want and us reacting to that,” he told the Tulsa World.

The survey, conducted earlier this year, indicated that 44 percent of Tulsa residents were dissatisfied with the adequacy of the street lighting.

Bartlett said some of that likely had to do with the city’s expressway lights being shut off during the budget crisis, even though they were back on at the time of the survey.

But the mayor said it also indicates a bigger issue, pointing to another survey result that 38 percent of Tulsans feel unsafe walking in their own neighborhoods after dark. The dissatisfaction and unsafe feelings were the same, regardless of where those surveyed live, Mayoral Chief of Staff Terry Simonson said, showing a map with red dots scattered across the city.

“When you have a situation like this,” he said, tapping the map, “the mayor has to take action. This is a quality-of-life issue.”


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110507_298_0_MayorD999171
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 05:12:45 pm by patric » Logged

"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
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« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2011, 07:29:52 pm »

I borrowed this photo from another thread (but posted it here as to not hijack the discussion) but it illustrates what Ive been referring to as a "dual" street lighting system, where you have high-mounted shielded fixtures that do the job of lighting the streets, and much lower-intensity post-top lights for pedestrian scale or aesthetics.


Yes, the tall cobra-head lights are full-cutoff (you can tell by the flat lens, as opposed to the drop-lens we use around here).  If the Acorns in this photo are moderate-intensity sources like compact fluorescent (in the neighborhood of 1000 Lumens) this would be a very eye-friendly arrangement.

Since you referenced this pic of mine to discuss the lighting in the area, since there a flat lense cobra head street lamps and the acorn style as well, I wanted to follow up on your thoughts. Along Central Ave in Phoenix (the arterial portion) the lighting wether decorative or traditional are flat lense sodiums. Over 90% of the street lights in the PHX metro area are flat lense. The acorns in the photo that you refer to are sodiums as well, but they are not bare bulb sodiums.

Unlit....



And this one happened to be lit showing the internal shading inside to direct light downward...



This is an example of the decorative light poles along this corridor, and they are shoe box sodiums that have been fit into decorative poles.....



In this case they are of different intensity between the light over the roadway, and the light over the sidewalk, and they compliment each other wee with out being intrusive.

And speaking of intrusive this next picture shows how if your back yard is against an arterial how they help cut down on the light pollution into your yard. (And yes, they are quite effective.)





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« Reply #131 on: May 08, 2011, 08:01:10 pm »

The other things I will add to this converstation are things that I can speak on. In the city of Phoenix, the street lights are maintained by APS, the elictric utility, and if you have issues, and want a shield installed to keep light pollution out of your yard you call them not the city. The cost of the lights is a small charge (pardon the pun) on your electric bill. In the city that I work for, due to the explosive growth that it has gone through, the city maintains all of the street lights, and the issue has become that there was no standard for street lights during the growth time. The main issue that they are trying to resolve is the fact that you had residential developments being built and the developers put in the light standards that they wanted to fit the development. The problem became from the fact the city would take over the maintenance and replacement, but you have areas that have $500.00 standards, and then you have areas where the standards are $5000.00 to replace. The reason that I have become aware of this issue is my departement is using the fiber optic network to connect city facilities together, of the traffic department. As traffic expands it's fiber network to take care of all of the traffic signals, it is my job to see that we can attatch all of the facilities together, which includes Fire, Police, P&R, Public Works, etc, etc.

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patric
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« Reply #132 on: May 09, 2011, 10:13:40 am »

The other things I will add to this converstation are things that I can speak on. In the city of Phoenix, the street lights are maintained by APS, the elictric utility, and if you have issues, and want a shield installed to keep light pollution out of your yard you call them not the city. The cost of the lights is a small charge (pardon the pun) on your electric bill. In the city that I work for, due to the explosive growth that it has gone through, the city maintains all of the street lights, and the issue has become that there was no standard for street lights during the growth time. The main issue that they are trying to resolve is the fact that you had residential developments being built and the developers put in the light standards that they wanted to fit the development.

PSO built Tulsa's streetlighting system to it's convenience.  The weight of the wires dictates a pole every 300 feet, so that's also the interval of the lights in most instances.  Many utilities have designed systems that way, and have argued that they dont want to use Full Cutoff (shielded) lights because it doesnt shine as much between their chosen pole interval.  That argument proved to be empty, as Texas and other states have shown when they changed out older semi- or non-cutoff lights (like we use) for the newer Full-Cutoff using existing pole spacings.

There is actually no ordinance requiring streets to be lighted in Tulsa, so the choices, or "warranting" is done by Public Works based on "input" from PSO.  This should be changed to a better warranting system based not only on actual need for light, but how well the light performs the job.   This would serve the citizens better than installing pointless or inefficient lights as a band-aid for random perceptions. 
Remember, the USDOJ found that there isnt a solid relationship between street lighting alone and a sustained reduction in crime (only that the "fear" of crime is reduced) and that many affluent neighborhoods do well with little or no street lights.

PSO has had 10-15 years (the life of an average luminaire) to adapt to the glare-free lighting of Full-Cutoff but hasnt.  One reason might be that, because Full-Cutoff doesnt waste light at angles useless to vision, they require lamps of less wattage to do the same job of lighting the street.  Light otherwise wasted in people's eyes or the sky is recycled back down to the street, so you can burn less electricity.

But if the streetlight system turns out to actually be designed primarily to burn off-peak electricity, there might be some resistance to that.  In cities where the municipality owns the street lighting system, they are more apt to use streetlights that do the best job improving vision and providing a real sense of safety.

The standard default streetlights we use now are glary, wasteful junk.  Wouldnt it be nice if we used this opportunity to start installing better ones from this point on?
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« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2011, 11:25:21 am »

Over 90% of the street lights in the PHX metro area are flat lense. The acorns in the photo that you refer to are sodiums as well, but they are not bare bulb sodiums.

That looks like a King Luminaire "K118 Washington"  http://www.stresscrete.com/pdf/K118.pdf  and the louvres, while a good idea, really work when the glass is clear, and not refractive.  The reason is the refraction scatters light, which counteracts much of the shielding benefit of the louvres inside.  Still better than AEP/PSO's options, though.




This is an example of the decorative light poles along this corridor, and they are shoe box sodiums that have been fit into decorative poles.....


That's another good example of a Dual system, but instead of using separate fixtures, they use one thats dual-purpose.  Since Tulsa (thanks to DTU, V2025, etc.) has so much invested in Acorn fixtures, I suggested a way the Acorns could be re-fitted with lower pedestrian-scale intensity (thereby reducing glare) while the job of actually lighting streets would be a higher-mounted, brighter flat-lens fixture such as those in your original photo (Central & Portland).  

Until LEDs mature away from the "Blue" problem, the best choices are still the goldish High-Pressure Sodium.  HPS also has a big edge over Metal Halide in terms of lower maintenance (2X longer life), less sky-glow and Circadian disruption.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 11:35:48 am by patric » Logged

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« Reply #134 on: May 10, 2011, 04:00:15 pm »

Noticed the new lights along the I-44 corridor today.  Are those the permanent lights.  They seem pretty small compared to other interstate lights I've seen.
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