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November 17, 2017, 01:39:47 pm
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Author Topic: Why not knock down the north side of the IDL?  (Read 10739 times)
deinstein
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2008, 11:10:53 pm »

The closest thing you can think of is the Big Dig?

Uh, that was a project to BUILD more roads. That might be the worst example you could have thrown out there. This idea is the anti-thesis to the Big Dig. Try Harbor Freeway in Portland for a better example.

If it ain't broke why fix it? It is broke. It's in a horrible shape, it has deteriorated the area, it divides the area and we are better off without it. You don't need four highways surrounding downtown.

And even if it was properly maintained (which it never will be, let's get real) it would still cost money.

And I do spend time on the north side...if you think finishing a freeway (that will end up is crappy condition anyway) is the answer then you're absolutely clueless. No one will disagree with you on light rail and bus service...

And I asked if bike lanes were a proper buffer like street parking. I think there should be bike lanes there, and I know there are space issues and wanted it to be discussed.

But yeah, have fun building another highway.
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YoungTulsan
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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2008, 11:15:20 pm »

It wouldn't be like the Big Dig, because we would simply get rid of it.

But anyway, the obvious counter argument is that you don't just destroy infrastructure, because of all the money that was put into building it in the first place.  I would never consider putting into motion the ideas I suggested earlier without some very thorough studies to suggest the benefits outweigh the cost.  I can't just GUESS they do.  I think it would be splendid if they did though.

AA, in two posts you went from saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" to talking about how good & broke it is (not maintaining it and letting it deteriorate).

Definitely, finish the Gilcrease and I-44 first.  THEN open the doors to talk about the feasibility of replacing old 244 with a connected community.
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deinstein
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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2008, 11:20:19 pm »

I think it's regressive to continue building freeways and/or expanding them and letting them go to crap...

When will it stop? Seriously.


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booWorld
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« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2008, 11:27:26 pm »


Photo source:  Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library, Tulsa Historical Society

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YoungTulsan
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« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2008, 11:38:40 pm »

Comedy gold right there.

Also keep in mind they envisioned Riverside as being an expressway.  The fact that it would have cut up Maple Ridge is, what I gather (wasn't around then), the main reason it was blocked.

Without a highway there, US-75 in West Tulsa between Union and Elwood became the logical North/South route.  And that was a little close to also justify the Gilcrease ("Sequoyah") loop on the West Side.

I believe the Gilcrease is justified now.
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deinstein
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« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2008, 11:56:29 pm »

How are any new highways justified?
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YoungTulsan
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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2008, 12:17:07 am »

quote:
Originally posted by deinstein

How are any new highways justified?



Well, for one, it would be the only way your idea of tearing down the IDL would ever be feasible.  US-412 is considered a High-Priority Corridor from Tulsa to Nashville TN.  I-244 is a federally funded Interstate.  You can't just knock out a section of it without providing a suitable alternative.  The Gilcrease circumnavigating downtown would provide that alternative, could potentially be given Interstate status (and funding), and there are only about 7 or 8 miles left to be done to complete it.  Much of the area it would cut through is already clear.
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deinstein
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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2008, 12:40:46 am »

[}:)] @ high priority corridor from Nashville to Tulsa. No one takes that route, come on now.

And it would be rerouting...I-244 would be rerouted on the other parts of the IDL, same with 412.
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YoungTulsan
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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2008, 01:18:20 am »

quote:
Originally posted by deinstein

[}:)] @ high priority corridor from Nashville to Tulsa. No one takes that route, come on now.

And it would be rerouting...I-244 would be rerouted on the other parts of the IDL, same with 412.



That is just what it is classified by the FHWA.  That also means there is future possibility of the route being classified as a new Interstate (which is important for funding).  Tulsa to Stillwater and Tulsa to NE Arkansas are going to do nothing but grow traffic volume.  Taking out the north leg of the IDL would require passers through to make about 4 turns in a 1 mile stretch.  It would clog up traffic, cause accidents, and just generally be a clusterf---.  The north loop (Gilcrease) would add a couple of miles to the trip, but be smooth & trouble free.

What we have now serves its function just fine.  If you don't complete the Gilcrease loop, but still are hellbent on knocking out a leg of the IDL, the south or east legs would cause the least problems.  No passers through would be forced to make 4 turns ­¯|_|¯ as a result.

You have to have the Gilcrease if you want to tear down the north leg.
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Kenosha
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2008, 01:54:55 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Double A

quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha

quote:
Originally posted by Double A

quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

That's nuts.



+1. This guy is full of expensive, hair brained ideas. I'm surprised he's not employed in the Taylor administration.



Wanna know what else is expensive?

Maintaining an elevated highway.



Not maintaining it and letting it deteriorate to the state it's in makes it expensive, if it had been maintained it wouldn't be that expensive.



I don't know how to say this nicely.

You are talking out of your donkey.  Really...you don't know what the f**k you are talking about.  Nonetheless, your uninformed, offhanded comments are relayed as facts, which they are not....

Maintaining highways is expensive.  Which is why it hasn't been done properly.  If it wasn't expensive, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Secondly, I repeatedly hear you say that this or that won't pay for itself when referring to public projects.  Let's get something straight.  If public money only went towards things that paid for themselves we'd have.....NOTHING.

No Sewers
No Sewage Treatment
No Stormwater Management
No ROADS...which are the worst offender of the "not paying for itself" criteria
No Urban Planning of any sort.
Social Security
Wars...wait, maybe we are on to something here.
Public Transportation
Parks
Sidewalks
Any kind of maintenance for the above items.
Police
Fire
.....

Truthfully, my brain hurts trying to think of all the things that don't "pay for themselves".

We might have water and garbage service.

The point is...this is an unacceptable criteria for evaluating the value of most public projects.  They do create value, which may or may not translate in to increased revenue operational and capital needs.  The only reason the "pay for itself" is brought up is to scuttle an otherwise worthy project.

I paint my house.  It creates value.  Is it dollar for dollar value?  No, but not painting it is, dollar for dollar, much worse.



« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 10:22:00 am by Kenosha » Logged

 
Breadburner
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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2008, 06:10:30 am »

Sewers.....[Wink]
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FOTD
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« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2008, 09:25:03 am »

Dimesteen....the hidden intent behind putting it in that location was to disect north Tulsa neighborhoods devaluing property and dispersing an ethnic (and much feared) colony.

That objective was a suckcess. So, you might have a point. But FOTD doubts it.

Just demonizing the 1960's city leadership.
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carltonplace
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« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2008, 09:47:15 am »

The exchange from N/S 75 on the east side of downtown onto E/W 51 is already a mess during rush hour. Traffic exiting 75 to East bound 51 backs up from Lewis and traffic exiting west bound onto 51 backs up from the I44 exchange (that bridge is too small). I can't imagine the Dallas like snarl we'd get by adding more traffic onto 51 during peak hours.

The IDL was a mistake. It chokes downtown and cuts it off from the surrounding neighborhoods. Its construction destroyed dozens of old houses that would have been desirable today (along with parks etc) and it (along with white flight) initiated the devaluation and decay of the remaining homes outside of the IDL. The IDL also encourages the mass exodus away from downtown to the burbs everyday. But it's done. I don't know how you could move or divert it without recreating those same issues in another part of town.
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Kenosha
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« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2008, 10:22:44 am »

thx...

Sewers...
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Gaspar
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« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2008, 11:04:55 am »

quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Comedy gold right there.

Also keep in mind they envisioned Riverside as being an expressway.  The fact that it would have cut up Maple Ridge is, what I gather (wasn't around then), the main reason it was blocked.

Without a highway there, US-75 in West Tulsa between Union and Elwood became the logical North/South route.  And that was a little close to also justify the Gilcrease ("Sequoyah") loop on the West Side.

I believe the Gilcrease is justified now.



I use Riverside as an expressway.  Just have to time the lights just right.

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