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Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2008, 01:00:00 pm I suspect most have heard or read of this story, but for those who have not, here it is:
http://www.630wmal.com/Article.asp?id=614058&spid= Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: FOTD on March 11, 2008, 01:52:03 pm Her demonic attitude does not bode well for ED in Oklahoma. What a runt.
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Townsend on March 11, 2008, 01:58:36 pm She's another example of why we're proud of the national opinion of Oklahoma. Every few months it seems we need one of our locals to spout off or do something extraordinary to draw attention to us.
Was ORU the last one? The Tulsa Zoo and the creationist exhibit before that? Angry at a Ganesha statue outside the elephant pen. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Conan71 on March 11, 2008, 02:10:59 pm Kern is a moron.
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2008, 02:23:02 pm quote: We also had 1804 and the conduct of a Judge sort of recently as well. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: CoffeeBean on March 11, 2008, 03:03:27 pm Dressing up your comments in constitutional garb doesn't make them correct, enlightened or even moral.
Kern, like the KKK, is free to spew her backwater viewpoint, the only difference being that Kern actually speaks for "we the people." Sickening. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Cubs on March 11, 2008, 04:08:43 pm It's people like Kern that keep me loving the state of Oklahoma. We have some of the best representatives of any state (including Inhofe and Coburn).
I'd vote for Ms. Kern anyday ... she speaks the truth! Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Ed W on March 11, 2008, 04:45:36 pm Gosh, she said that gays were a greater threat than terrorists. We kill terrorists. We imprison them in defiance of both our own and international law. So would Kern logically support similar treatment for gays and lesbians?
We're living in a police state. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: dsjeffries on March 11, 2008, 05:11:10 pm quote: Please tell me you're kidding. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 11, 2008, 07:50:15 pm She's an idiot.
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: FOTD on March 11, 2008, 08:04:46 pm quote: You are an imbecile despite your moniker. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: TheArtist on March 11, 2008, 08:38:09 pm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFxk7glmMbo
I find it interesting how she keeps mentioning "lifestyle" and saying things like, not all lifestyles and not all religions are equal. Its a bad lifestyle and you can tell because there are more suicides, more illness, their lifespans are shorter... I thought that was Oklahoma? Whats that say about our lifestyle? Our religion? "We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us" Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 11, 2008, 09:10:34 pm quote: Its nice seeing a politician who is not a homosexual apologist and actually has the guts to speak out against homosexuality. With all the gay children fairy tales infesting our schools and libraries,and gay pbs indoctrination specials she hit the nail on the head when she spoke out against the homosexual indoctrination of our kids. I find it hypocritical of the media to ignore well known celebrities who compare Christians to the Taliban or celebrities who hang out with south American dictators,but raise hell when unknown politician speaks out against homosexuality and homosexual indoctrination. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 11, 2008, 09:12:18 pm quote: I agree.We have politicians who do not cater to idiotic liberal nonsense. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Cubs on March 11, 2008, 09:13:12 pm quote: Not at all .... I care much more about being biblically correct than politically correct. I don't understand all the fuss ... I've heard several other people say things very similar to what Ms. Kern said ... Everyone is acting like she is the first person to ever say such things. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Breadburner on March 11, 2008, 09:19:31 pm quote: You're more than qualified to make that judgement...... Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: rwarn17588 on March 12, 2008, 01:00:20 am Whether you think homosexuality is a moral or not is besides the point in this discussion.
What p*sses people off is that Kern is saying that homosexuality is a bigger threat to America than terrorism. Really? I don't remember homosexuals blowing gigantic holes in Navy ships, sending anthrax through the mail, or crashing jets into skyscrapers. Whoever thinks homosexuality is a bigger threat to our nation than terrorism is a prime candidate for the loony bin. And, yes, that includes Rep. Kern. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 12, 2008, 08:02:12 am quote: Because Jesus would hate homosexuals too. If there was one main message Jesus taught, it was to hate certain groups of people and try to make their lifestyle miserable. To make people who did not listen to him into outcasts. To exclude non-believers from his presence, chastise them in public, and to try and pass laws that would encumber their life choices. Jesus hated allowing people to make their own choices. He was constantly sending away prostitutes, tax collectors, and even those he knew were going to betray and kill him as being unworthy. He favored strict application of biblical law and he himself worried more about the detail of scripture than the big picture and thus refrained from working on Sundays, honoring women, or questions the temple priests. He never taught unconditional love. He refused to allow other people to make their own choices. He spoke harshly of the Romans and other pagans and wanted to overthrow and outlaw their way of life. Either that or I have it totally wrong. And Jesus was accepting of any and all persons. If he disapproved of their life choices, their gods, or even their treatment of him he turned the other cheek. He was interested in getting people to have a relationship with God - not in forcing other people to do as he wanted. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: tulsa1603 on March 12, 2008, 08:09:06 am As a gay man, this does not shock me, and I am having a hard time understanding the outrage. Seriously, I would generally assume that most podunk state legislators would feel that way. I guess the comparison to terrorism is what makes it such a news item....But I realize that her opinion on the matter is pretty irrelevant. Flat-earthers like her are going the way of the dinosaur.
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 12, 2008, 08:12:55 am quote: + eleventy one Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: waterboy on March 12, 2008, 08:38:52 am I suppose if Cubs is right, then Owasso should disband their football team pronto if they intend to remain the last bastion of Christian morality. Pig skin is one of those biblical prohibitions.
CF, good work dude. Eleventy two. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Conan71 on March 12, 2008, 08:41:23 am quote: There are a lot of Republicans like myself who would love nothing more than to jettison narrow-minded idiots like Kern from the GOP rolls. This is the legislature, not a freakin' church!!!! Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 12, 2008, 08:47:33 am You know what, lets break this down another way:
quote: Destroying the nation... how? What negative effect has the "homosexual agenda" had on your life? If Adam marries Steve what harm does that cause to you, or anyone else other than to your sense of religious virtue. Which the government is forbidden from enforcing unto others (and logical makes no sense lest we require heterosexual couples to procreate). Ignoring of the obvious fact that most homosexuals have about as much of an agenda as most heterosexuals... that is to say little or none. quote: Having already covered the religious perspective, it is highly doubtful it is a lifestyle choice. Calling homosexuality a lifestyle choice implies, by necessity, that you are heterosexual by choice. Personally, I have no interest in sexual relations with other men... the concept is anti-sexual to me and I hate to admit it but a bit repulsive. I don't think this is a choice on my part, no more so than the fact that I am attracted to a certain kind of woman (generally fair skinned, not super skinny, breasts not so big she can't go hiking, and generally shorter hair - if you wanted to know [;)]). Logically, it stands to reason that homosexuals are not making a choice to be attracted to the same sex. Especially in light of the social stigma still existent as well as the legal encumbrances to their relationships. The concept of being able to chose who you are sexual attracted to just doesn't fit, add the social issues and few would "chose" a homosexual lifestyle. quote: Basking in her own ignorance at this point: Babylonian Empire Persia Greek States Ptolemaic Egypt Carthaginian Empire Roman Empire In the America's there is strong evidence that the Maya and Aztec had wide acceptance of homosexuality. There's 8 off the top of my head that all lasted longer than our little experiment has while not shunning homosexuals. Everyone knows Rome and the Greeks had no qualms about homosexuality, yet survived for centuries - NOT decades. And nothing points to a homosexual "cause" to any downfall. quote: I think slavery is a great idea. Black emancipation is not good for our country. Nothing against individual African Americans, but the civil rights agenda has been harmful. Of course it's not the same... but to separate an "agenda" that is a core belief of a group from the individuals in that group simply doesn't work. We are not talking about a belief, but a part of self identity. Homosexuals would want equal treatment and acceptance just like any other group would. Speaking out against that is inherently speaking out against the individuals. quote: Hey, not that you are cramming YOUR belief's down anyones throat... Oklahoma Constitution, Article 2: The Bill of Rights § 34. "Marriage" Defined - Marriage Between Persons of Same Gender Not Valid or Recognized A. Marriage in this state shall consist only of the union of one man and one woman. (anyone else find it at least ironic that our Bill of Rights includes a provision explicitly restricting rights?) quote: From someone advocating a religious approach to the issue. quote: She is classically begging the question. She believes homosexuality is wrong, therefor no one else should be taught tolerance. Not that she has anything against homosexuals, but teaching kids that a homosexual is about as much a threat to our society as anyone else having a consensual adult relationship is "deadly stuff." - - - If your religion dictates you hate, dislike, discourage, pester, or otherwise act against homosexuals - FINE. But the pretense that homosexual is wrong because the bible says so and god says the bible is right and you believe him is not only circular logic, it is also a religious argument. So don't pretend it is outside the realm of legislating your religion and "cramming it down our throats." Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Townsend on March 12, 2008, 08:49:14 am Many of these folks have accepted a cult version of Christianity. They follow the herd and profess hate and intolerance. If it doesn't fit in their fantasies, they change the fantasy.
A few more steps backwards and we've got Jim Jones party goers. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Townsend on March 12, 2008, 09:02:01 am quote: The Roman empire split in two and fell after Christianity became powerful. Then the dark ages came, black death, loss of a third of Europe's populace, loss of intellect, thousands of years of technology...thanks Kern. Looks like she's bringing black death back to Oklahoma. I'd like her out of office if she's going to do that. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: joiei on March 12, 2008, 09:08:10 am quote: THis so closely resembles my own faith structure. My brother in law just doesn't get it and nether does Rep. Kern and her ilk. I have never found a reference in the bible to hate anyone or any group. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: grahambino on March 12, 2008, 09:14:02 am I can't wait for the Godless® ACLU to weigh in on this!
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: guido911 on March 12, 2008, 10:03:38 am quote: Well in light of this post, could you please show me in your prior posts in this forum where you made the same argument when the exalted Keith Olbermann called the Republican party the leading terrorist group in this country. To a lesser degree, I assume you wrote the same thing after Sen. John Kerry said American soldiers were "terrorizing" kids and children. I absolutely agree with the consensus on this page that Sen. Kern went over the top on this, however. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 12, 2008, 10:36:31 am quote: Perhaps she is talking about the long term social effects on society if we have generations of individuals thinking it is okay to have sex with what ever you want and the you can be any gender you want nonsense. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 12, 2008, 10:49:29 am quote: He certainly wouldn't tolerate homosexual behavior,after he told the adulteress to sin no more after her accusers left. John 8:11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." quote: 1 Corinthians 5 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." quote: John 8:11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 12, 2008, 11:19:33 am quote: The problem I'm having is not eating with idolators, slanderers, and drunkards. Especially the drunkards. Those guys seem to be everywhere I go. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 12, 2008, 11:19:52 am James, you don't want to get in a Bible quoting war with me. I have studied the Bible more than most Christians have and can prevent my case using Biblical logic with ease. Not to mention you failed to address the major points:
Jesus preached tolerance. He discouraged immoral behavior but the larger picture of love and a personal relationship with God was most important. He accepted prostitutes and other sinners who lived an immoral life - he discouraged their behavior but never chastised them or treated them negatively. While Jesus is never quoted condemning homosexuality in anyway, the best argument one could muster is that he would treat these "sinners" the same as any other. The point is not that Jesus would like homosexuality (that's an entirely other debate), but that he did not dictate the life choices of other people. Doing so removes faith, believe, and devotion from the equation. All of which are the essentials of Christianity, ones heart is more important than what you say or what you do (presumably ones heart would dictate the others if it is truely devoted to god). Dictation of actions does nothing for the soul of a person nor to please your God. For that matter I'm sure you distance yourself from the 600+ rituals and laws mandated by the old testament. Wearing tassels, taking multiple wives, sacrificing goats, avoiding women on when they are "unclean," eating Kosher, not shaving your temples. Jesus often tried to illustrate that such rituals are not mandatory for a relationship with God. It is a large part of the reason he was put to death - ignoring religious law in favor of tolerance and love. You quoted John in your condemnation of homosexuality. Shall I assume you follow John, 8:7 and that you are without sin? And if your religion dictates; by all means expel the "wicked" among you. But this State is not your religious community, nor is this nation. You have no right to expel a person on the basis of your religious beliefs. - - - This all, of course, pretends I acknowledge the omnipotence or validity of your gods and still presents a strong case that the course of action you advocate is wrong. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Townsend on March 12, 2008, 11:31:28 am Using the bible as a means to help you in an argument can be harmful.
Anyone want to back these up? Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. -- I Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV) If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son ... Then shall his father and his mother ... bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (AV) My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. -- Song of Solomon 5:4 (AV) There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. -- Ezekiel 23:20 (NIV) If a man [meets] a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her ... He must marry the girl ... He can never divorce her as long as he lives. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV) I'm not wanting to start anything. I just think it's a bad call to quote a poorly translated piece of literature. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 12, 2008, 12:48:10 pm quote: Holy texts aren't necessarily the best guides for public policy. Just ask our friends in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia how that's been working out. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: joiei on March 12, 2008, 04:14:25 pm this just in from Perez Hilton The truth always comes out!!!!
As it should happen to be… The homophobic Republican hatemonger from Oklahoma has a gay son!!!! That's right, Sally Kern's son Jesse is a big ol' homo, PerezHilton.com has learned. We're sure he's REAL PROUD of mommy! And, it has also been revealed that Good Ol' Sally has lied about receiving death threats. God is ashamed of Sally Kern. We know. She told us! Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 12, 2008, 04:35:36 pm Why I can't substantiate that rumor and I'm sorry Jesse got dragged into this in any event... I can say that the rumor is all over the new AND several Oklahoma City message boards. Apparently he was "the gay guy" at OBU.
I really hate that her son's sexuality has become a topic of discussion, but I guess he has his mom to thank for that. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: mrhaskellok on March 12, 2008, 04:51:41 pm I want to interject something. Remember, Sally is a Christian. Christians will tend to think along the same lines and the Christian men and woman who "shaped" this nation. SO, while I agree that her comments were over the top, I don't see it is hard to understand where the thought process is coming from and see the defense of it.
Here are what other "KKK" like people have said... "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams America's greatness has been the greatness of a free people who shared certain moral commitments. Freedom without moral commitment is aimless and promptly self-destructive. John W. Gardner I just want people to stop and think. It is ok if you want to change the moral "structure" if you will of a nation, but don't do it thinking that those who read the history of our nation (Kern types) are going to stand by happily. BE willing to fight the battle and stop complaining when the 'almost' obvious happens. "Almost" obvious because I still think the comment was not conformative to the traditional views of many Christians in America. Sid Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 12, 2008, 06:23:33 pm quote: I seriously doubt that.Most likely your biblical knowledge came from a fake religious site like religioustolerance.orgy or it came from a bogus Dr.Laura letter that cherry picked a few bible verses.You are probably one of those people who thinks thou shalt not kill bans capital punishment. If you actually knew anything about the bible you wouldn't have tried to imply that Jesus tolerated sin or that Jesus made a sin-all-you-want card or that it was okay to hang out with sinners as your post riddled with sarcasm.I proved each one your assertions wrong,so please go spread your lies of your vast biblical knowledge somewhere else. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 12, 2008, 06:28:19 pm quote: Only a liberal would think such statements a reminiscent of a terrorist racist organization. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 12, 2008, 07:30:55 pm Wow, jamesrage, your utter contempt for people you don't know is pretty impressive stuff. I can tell you've been working on it for a loooong time.
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: mrhaskellok on March 12, 2008, 07:58:46 pm quote: Do you think I think that her comments were racist? I used the KKK but notice I used quotation marks because other had used that organization to describe her positions. I stated that I understand her position and my whole argument was countering your type of blatent bashing on both sides. Please sir, you don't know now me. lol...and I am not a liberal. (if that is what you are calling me.) Sid Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: KingMutt on March 12, 2008, 08:33:12 pm In all due respect, Jamesrage's screen name really fits him. No matter the topic, he "rages" against anyone who disagrees with him.
Like a few others on this board, who browbeat posters with sarcasm and spite, Jamesrage takes the fun out of Tulsanow.org. This should be a place to exchange views civilly, discuss ideas, reminisce, ask a few silly questions once in a while, and generally enjoy ourselves. Some of you take all of the fun out of it, but I'll bet your personal lives are just as spite-filled and miserable as your posts. This lets you remain anonymous and get your digs in. Hope it makes you feel like "big men" and makes up for the decided lack of substance in your real lives. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: joiei on March 12, 2008, 11:32:01 pm does anyone have any more info on this?
Sally Kern Scrubs Gay Son? silentchild.jpg Uh-oh! Could foul-mouthed Sally Kern’s secret be out of the bag? The Oklahoma lawmaker’s homophobic remarks have been the talk of the town recently, especially her assertion that gay folk are infiltrating schools to indoctrinate children. And, sensing a critical national spotlight, Kern made a very suspicious change to her official government homepage. If you compare a March 4th cache and today’s version, you’ll notice that Kern and/or her staff deleted a biographical sentence mentioning her two adult sons, Jesse and Nathan. Obviously our warning bells went off, so we did a little digging and found something quite queer. Consider comment seventeen on this Tulsa World article: “How come no-one asks this “supposed” christian woman..about her own GAY son? The one she basically has dis-owned…ahh so christian.” What?! Kern and her Baptist preacher hubbie had a homo? And they disowned him? That’s some Alan Keyes ****… A little more digital detective work dug up numerous postings naming Jesse as the outcast offspring. One even recalls Jesse’s time at Oklahoma Baptist University, where he was apparently “the biggest queen on campus”: I find it hilarious that Salacious Sally is such a bigot. Her son Jesse was the biggest queen on the campus of OBU in the mid-90’s. Twice he almost was expelled for making inappropriate advances in the library toilets. When he wasn’t cruising the toilets he was in the glee club and a piano major…there’s your sign. Another comment, punches holes through Kern’s religious extremism and suggests Jesse’s homosexuality pushed Sally Kern over the edge: Jesse Kern, Sally’s son, was raised in a strict Baptist environment. If your claims are true then you must blame her and her husband for his turning out that way. Most gays aren’t out there breaking the law and engaging in public sex acts and solicitation. Jesse chose criminal behavior to act out on his desires. … I see in this foolish woman much anger and resentment. Her beliefs are challenged within herself, because if she stands by them then she must accept her part in her son being a homosexual. She isn’t strong enough to do that. Instead, she has created a paranoid delusion that there is some vast conspiracy of gays infiltrating schools and governments to turn others gay and force their lifestyles on everyone. Her subconscious has created this great gay evil so she doesn’t have to blame herself and she says her son as a victim. Had the gays infiltrated Jesse’s school and indoctrinated him then? Funny, how he attended Baptist schools. His attendence [sic] at Oklahoma Baptist University was marred by his repeated censure for cruising the school’s toilets. Had he been able to live his life openly he would not have had to engage in such actions. Woof. Those are some allegations! And potentially disastrous for “family friendly” Kern. It also makes you wonder how Kern and her ilk sleep at night - and whether they understand the concept of “hell”. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Hometown on March 13, 2008, 06:42:44 am Wow, you go Joiei!
You know what is discouraging is that she received a standing ovation from the Republican caucus. The Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation is giving her their tacit approval by investigating people that have emailed their complaints to her. And does anyone believe this woman has ever really read even one history? The problem is that she is emblematic of the right wing hate mongers that make the most noise about being Christian when they are so obviously clueless. There's a whole lot of that around these parts. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Kashmir on March 13, 2008, 07:55:03 am I feel for that old Battleax Kern and all she is missing in life...Project Runway, catching the live drag show @ Majestic on Thursday nights, Halloween and Ted Allen...Anderson Cooper. Need I say more? (All things I enjoy!)
She makes me want to puke.[xx(] However, I can take comfort in knowing her house prolly has poor interior design and she probably eats bad food. [:P] Someone on KOTV comments said "Look at her, you can tell she is a repressed, self loathing Lesbian." Ha! Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 13, 2008, 08:14:00 am quote: Conspiracy theory? (http://"http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=44009") Is this next? (http://"http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58061") Has anyone read this book? The Marketing of Evil (http://"http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1679") Matt. 16:2 He said, “When evening comes you say, ‘It will be fair weather, because the sky is red,’ 16:3 and in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, because the sky is red and darkening.’ You know how to judge correctly the appearance of the sky, but you cannot evaluate the signs of the times. Right or wrong, at least Kern isn't doing a Barry Goldwater change. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 13, 2008, 08:54:28 am quote: I never implied she was part of the KKK. Furthermore, the notion that we were founded as a Christian nation remains a myth advocated by a very vocal minority. Many of the founders were far from "Christian" in actuality. Ben Franklin, George Washington, Jefferson, Madison among many were Deists (not intervening god) or Theists (multiple creating deities) if not nearly agnostic (none of which would be compatible with modern Christianity). Many had a strong belief in creator(s) but all came together to reject a theocracy. You quoted Adams as in favor of religious sentiment (though he spoke of "morals" which do not necessarily entail religion), Adams disestablished the Congressional church as president. Effectively terminating a growing relationship between church and state. He frequently lamented forcing religion or his bleiefs on others: quote: Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 88. By Edwin S. Gaustad. Excerpt from a letter to Richard Cranch, dated August 29, 1756. quote: Id. P.88. John Adams, letter to John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816. And Adam's certainly was not against religion. He spoke fondly of it and was active in the Congregationalist and later the Unitarian church. Both are now considered liberal churches by the Christian right - with Unitarians being technically outside the definition of Christian. I use him as an example simply because you brought him up - but he was serves as a great case study in religion and government during the time of the Founders... and it does not support the strong influence of religion on law. (I know your new-ish, please don't be offended. I try to keep my discussion rational but some people take that as an attack) Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 13, 2008, 08:59:08 am James,
I have attended religious affiliated schools for 15 years of my life (public schools for another 6). I have read several version of the Bible. I have read the Book of Mormon (most of it, I admit skimming large sections!). I have read the Koran, several Buddhist text, and a host of other religious texts and writings from Ash'ari to Zoroaster. I've read the Nostic Gospels, what little of the dead sea scrolls that have been translated and released and any many other texts that were written at the same time as books that were blessed by Roman Emperors and popes for inclusion in your book. The ones you aren't supposed to read because a Roman Empreror's counsel dictated which books you should and should not have access to... I've studied translations of certain passages that interest me. The nuances of translation from Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic (I do not speak these languages nor do I pretend do, I have looked at translation variables and alternatives, as well as common mistakes that have been written about by others). Studied the historical context of the parables and actions. I have an uncle that is a priest. My Grandfather was a Decan. I served on my Church's Counsel with a congregation of 1650 families for a couple years. I'm no theological expert, I'm not a linguist, nor am I a biblical scholar. But to dismiss me as some neophyte who picks up tidbits of information from "Dr. Laura" and regurgitates with no understanding is a total misconception. I have looked at religion with an exceptionally open mind and believe I am in a position to make and have made informed and rational statements in that regard. If you can say the same, I welcome further discussions with you. If not, please feel free to rant and rave with the understanding that I will not be responding. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: NellieBly on March 13, 2008, 09:14:38 am Cannon -- Dr. Laura makes me regurgitate, too.
Ellen Degeneres tried to call Kern's office yesterday at the beginning of her show to "clear up a few things about gay people." Pretty funny albeit completely embarassing for the state. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: CoffeeBean on March 13, 2008, 10:17:33 am To: mrhaskellok
Re: KKK reference I started that reference. It has nothing to do with Kern's ideology about race; it has everything to do with her logic. Both Kern and the KKK spew hate against other people, not based upon their merits as a human being, but upon a trait. "Hate is great!" --Not Jesus Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 13, 2008, 10:59:01 am Just curious, but did Kerns say anything that was untrue?
I can't see the video here at work, so I don't know or remember all she said. The few stats I could find seem to concur with what she said. Also, why is it that when someone says something that is truthful about someone it's considered hate, but when the other person says something awful back, it's not? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 13, 2008, 11:12:08 am quote: 1) "The homosexual agenda is just destroying this nation." I have seen no study that indicates this. Actually, areas with higher concentrations of homosexuals have higher standards of living, less violence, and generally higher property values (The Hamptons, Portland, San Francisco, Key West, NYC). 2) "poses a bigger threat to the U.S. than terrorism or Islam" Death toll from terrorism: Thousands From Gays: Zero Terrorist Expressing a Desire to Destroy the USA: Many Gays: None that I am aware of. I haven't seen a study or anything that supports her contention. 3) Societies that have embraced homosexuality have lasted centuries. From Greece, Rome, Ptolemaic Egypt, Babylon, Persia and on and on. Her statement that societies that embrace homosexuality last "decades" is patently false. 4) "We're not teaching facts and knowledge anymore. We're teaching indoctrination." Yesterday my son told me that the season change because of the Earth tilt in relation to the sun. He can read, write, and do math problems. Damn indoctrination. 5) There is no evidence that the "gay agenda" is to get elected and force 2 year olds to be accepting of people. - - - Those are the only patently false statements I could find. Those are also the only statements she made subject to fact checking. The only factual things she said was that the gay-straight alliance seeks understanding between the two groups and that there are gays being elected to office (stupid democracy). Otherwise, her entire statement was false. quote: The only stats that would support her contentions would be about gay elected officials. Everything else either has no support or the support is contrary to her contentions. Rome stood for about 600 years. The Greek states for about 300. Babylon for a similar time frame... etc. etc. - - - Other than a religious conviction that homosexuality is wrong, explain to be why we should have contempt for gay men and women? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: swake on March 13, 2008, 11:12:26 am quote: Hate crimes or speech are generally determined to be such because the speech or action attacks a group of people because they are part of a group that shares some point of distinction, i.e. race, religion, orientation, height, ability etc. If you are attacked for something you say, that is due to a tangible action on your part, not because you are member of some social group or class and therefore not considered to be a "hate" crime or speech. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: mrhaskellok on March 13, 2008, 12:10:01 pm quote: I appreciate you not wanting to scare me off ;). I agree totally with what you said though I differ slightly with your interpretation of the statements made by the men you listed. I have read so many letters from founders like Washington to know that they were definitely Christian. But, regardless of there denomination, my point is simply that we have to stop and wonder why people like Kern say the things she says. It just makes me laugh a little when people act surprised when people resist homosexual agendas, as if this nation has ALWAYS accepted homosexual behavior. I personally couldn't care less if someone is homosexual, but if anyone believes that it is immoral, then then certainly have the right to think that. This is where I am going to sound like a broken record. She is OBVIOUSLY a Christian, so instead of acting surprised she says things that are consistent with traditional Christian views, why not just collaborate and find someone to run against her. I guess I just think that calling it hate speech is simply not true. At least if you use the more politically correct definition of hate speech. It is like calling a Liberal a bunch of names and saying they promote hate speech because they are against republican views. No one is entitled to be exempt from being told they are doing something wrong..no one. It does not make the accuser correct, but they are nevertheless free to say (in this case) homosexuals are immoral). In my world (which is hopefully a free one) you can still just walk away and ignore them. In other words, lets target not what they are saying but the fact that people are paying attention to it or giving HER credibility if she does not deserve it. Am I making any sense? Lol... I fear I rambled too much that time. Again, thanks for your clear and well-educated reply. Sid Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: mrhaskellok on March 13, 2008, 12:14:33 pm quote: I understand. Sorry if I misplaced your intent. Logic though is relevant to perception. This is certain premises must be agreed upon before any logical conclusion can be reached...if two parties can't agree on two premises, then no conclusion as to what is illogical can be reached. Ergo, her argument is going to be, "Well sure it is logical, but your statements are not." This is why I say you must target the medium and the foundation of any argument and ignore the illogical conclusions. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 13, 2008, 01:03:34 pm mrhaskellok, I think we're on the same page. I do not think it was "hate speech" and generally I think that is a BS statement anyway.
U of Tulsa is in OT, can't talk now. [:P] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: mrhaskellok on March 13, 2008, 01:11:47 pm quote: Whew![;)] Now lets paint some murals! [;)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: mrhaskellok on March 13, 2008, 05:36:43 pm http://www.dayofsilence.org/
This I think is what Kern is concerned about...a nationwide day of silence in our schools to help promote homosexual behavior? Are we going to have a day of silence to promote straight behavior? Just makes me giggle, er eh, laugh. [;)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: pmcalk on March 13, 2008, 06:19:49 pm Why would you claim that this is a day of silence to "promote homosexual behavior?" Did you read the link? This is a day to protest the discrimination and hate crimes perpetrated against homosexuals. As a Christian, how could you not support that? If it is truly about the lifestyle, and not about the person, than don't you have to insist that acts of violence against homosexuals are wrong and immoral? Aren't random acts of baseless violence always something that good Christians deplore? Your statement is the kind of thing that leads people to conclude that this is really about hate, not about religious belief.
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Chicken Little on March 13, 2008, 06:42:16 pm quote:No. Articles from Scaife sources aren't hard news. The bill says that teaching discrimination based on "sexual orientation" is as bad as teaching discrimination based on "disability, gender, nationality, race or ethnicity, or religion." What the hell is wrong with that? quote: Again...WND is a conservative newspaper run by an evangelical Christian. It's slanted. I don't post stories from Daily Kos (http://"www.dailykos.com"), do I? Same thing, other end of the spectrum. I think it's fine if you post this stuff, but I don't think it strengthens your position. It simply says you get your "news" from the same paranoid and deluded places that Sally does. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: mrhaskellok on March 13, 2008, 07:23:41 pm quote: I said, I couldn't care less... I was providing the link so that people can see what Kern is upset about. I did read the link, I read a great deal of the web-site. The logical point that I making is 1) is HER religious beliefs do not allow tolerance of homosexual behavior then 2) SHE is not going to like this Day of Silence. No, sorry you are very wrong...being nice to homosexuals is not going to be a common "Christian" motto. I agree it should be but it wont be. Sorry if you misunderstood my comment or it was vague. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: MDepr2007 on March 13, 2008, 07:42:16 pm quote: So perversion falls under which catagory "ability" or "orientation" ? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: swake on March 13, 2008, 08:20:21 pm quote: I personally would consider it perverted to be obsessed with what consenting adults other than yourself are doing in the bedroom. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: MDepr2007 on March 13, 2008, 10:03:37 pm quote: And in another 20 years people will wonder why some have a problem about others having an under 16yr old in their bedroom [;)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Conan71 on March 13, 2008, 10:07:56 pm quote: Give that man a cigar, best definition I've ever heard for that word. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 14, 2008, 05:58:11 am quote: What in ignorant statement! Is this better?? http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-23-Genderschools_N.htm http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/family/78890.php Are you saying this isn't news or didn't happen because it's on a conservative news website???? I guess all the lawsuits aren’t happening either. WND is a top rated news website. At least I don't get my info from the National Inquirer or the World Weekly News! Even the gay lobby said they lied about its impact when it was being considered and then said it really will ban certain gender terms! But I guess that doesn’t count since it’s a conservative website that reported actual news. quote: Right! Why is it important that homosexuality be brought up anyway?? Why do I or anyone else need to know if someone is gay or not? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: guido911 on March 14, 2008, 07:44:28 am quote: Agreed. But the issue does not end there. What is the deal with this story out of Illinois and a certain book given to high schoolers? http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08030704.html Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Chicken Little on March 14, 2008, 11:42:25 am quote: 'Tis not.[;)] quote:Yes much, thanks. One is a news article and one is an opinion piece. I like to be able to tell the difference. Your WND articles are a mish-mash of selective facts and thinly-vieled opinion, posing as a news article. quote:By whom? quote:Those pubs can be entertaining, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure there are a few people that think that Batboy roams their neighborhood at night, but most people just get a kick out of the titillating headlines. In that sense, how is "'Mom' and 'Dad' banished by California" any different? "CALIFORNIA SCHEMIN' Next on school agenda: Teaching communism Family advocate: 'Just when we thought indoctrination couldn't get any worse' You are telling me that what follows this overly-wordy to the point of milking it headline is news? Gimme a break. Like I said, I don't post "articles" from Daily Kos. Why? Because they aren't articles, they are biased opinion pieces. Incidentally, they don't pretend to be anything other than that. The fact that they happen to cater to my biases is immaterial. WND is busy creating liberal charicatures that are about as nuanced as Batboy. It's fine, it's fun. But it is definitely not hard news. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: PonderInc on March 14, 2008, 02:49:29 pm I think that what Ms. Kern was trying to say is that the biggest threat we face--the source of all the problems in the world--is the possibility that too many people might love and respect each other in too many various ways.
Which is odd, b/c I always thought our greatest problem might be ignorance and fear... Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Conan71 on March 14, 2008, 03:21:25 pm Hey, if a legislator has those views, that's their business. I would simply appreciate it if they would quit commenting on it in their "official capacity."
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: USRufnex on March 14, 2008, 07:31:50 pm quote:Hmm. I'll agree that "Angels in America" is probably inappropriate for high school students, but calling a Pulitzer Prize winning play "Graphic, Profane and Vulgar Homosexual Porn" is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. It's about as stupid as when I was in middle school and my church circulated a petition against the movie version of "The Last Temptation of Christ." It made all sorts a literalist claims about Jesus having sex with Mary Magdelen, etc, etc... I, of course, rented the movie out years later when I was in college and, other than Willem Dafoe making a pretty boring version of Jesus, I didn't see what the fuss was all about... IMO, the self serving publicity hounds of the North Shore Student Advocacy are notorious.... http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/newssun/news/830193,5_1_WA07_GAYPORN_S1.article quote: http://www.pioneerlocal.com/deerfield/news/839688,de-angeledit-031308-s1.article quote: Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 16, 2008, 08:45:39 am quote: You were trying to give the impression that her comments were somehow equal to that of racism with the here are some quotes of other "KKK" like people. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 16, 2008, 08:52:28 am quote: You are either a liar about your biblical knowledge,you didn't paid attention about the bible,you didn't retained any knowledge of what you learned or you hoped the only bible verses someone else read was john 3:16,the ten commandments and the story of Adam and Eve so that they couldn't see through your deception.Your blatant deception in the previous post riddled with sarcasm proved that one of those assumptions is correct. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: jamesrage on March 16, 2008, 09:04:49 am quote: Kerns views have nothing to do with hate.It is a fact that gays are infiltrating our schools,trying to indoctrinate children with gay fairy childrens tales,gay pbs specials and other stuff.The only ones spewing the same level of hatred as the KKK are the gays and homosexual apologist who have a problem with what she says.When you have all these people trying to indoctrinate our children into tolerating and accepting the homosexual lifestyle and making death threats against her it kind of proves her point about homosexuality being a bigger threat than Islam. http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4444956&page=1 An Oklahoma state representative has received thousands of hostile e-mail messages after she said that homosexuality is a bigger threat to national security than terrorism. The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation is investigating more than 17,000 mostly hostile e-mails that were sent to State Rep. Sally Kern after parts of a speech she gave to a Republican organization earlier this year were posted on YouTube, said bureau spokeswoman Jessica Brown. Listen to portions of the speech. snip.... Brown, the spokeswoman for the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, said the agency was reviewing the growing number of e-mails sent to Kern to determine if any of them could be considered legally threatening. "If I say I'm going to kill you, that's a threat. If I say I hope you die, that's not," she said. She said the agency may contact some of the people who sent the e-mails. http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/14/america/NA-GEN-US-Lawmaker-Gay-Rant.php OKLAHOMA CITY: A YouTube audio clip of an Oklahoma lawmaker's screed against homosexuality, which she called a bigger threat than terrorism, has outraged gay activists and brought death threats rolling in. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/03/15/MN53VK89A.DTL A YouTube audio clip of a state lawmaker's screed against homosexuality, which she called a bigger threat than terrorism, has outraged gay activists and brought death threats. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: azbadpuppy on March 16, 2008, 10:59:38 am quote: Could you please provide some facts to back up your statements re: "gay indoctrination"? Plus, the whole death threat claim has already been proven to be false by the OBI, and even Ms. Kern conceded there were no actual threats days ago. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: rwarn17588 on March 16, 2008, 12:17:35 pm <jamesrage writes:
Kerns views have nothing to do with hate.It is a fact that gays are infiltrating our schools,trying to indoctrinate children with gay fairy childrens tales,gay pbs specials and other stuff.The only ones spewing the same level of hatred as the KKK are the gays and homosexual apologist who have a problem with what she says.When you have all these people trying to indoctrinate our children into tolerating and accepting the homosexual lifestyle and making death threats against her it kind of proves her point about homosexuality being a bigger threat than Islam. <end clip> Um, no. It doesn't prove the point at all (especially when the so-called point is loaded with punctuation errors, but I digress). There was a report a few days ago that the state police said the so-called death threats weren't death threats. If there were death threats, someone would be arrested. To date, no one has been. All homosexuals are asking for are the same rights as everyone else. You know ... like black people asked for in the 1950s and '60s. This isn't an agenda as much as asking for basic human rights and decency. So when someone comes out saying that homosexuality is "more dangerous than Islam" and other unhinged statements, it shouldn't be surprising if people of ALL stripes get p*ssed. So, again, what is so dangerous about people being more accepting of homosexuality? And how is this more dangerous than radical Islam, which actually wants to KILL and put others under totalitarian rule? You and others have been dodging these questions for days, and I still haven't heard what would be called lucid and logical answers. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: okiebybirth on March 16, 2008, 12:21:56 pm A Letter to Oklahoma Rep. Sally Kern, from 18-Year-Old Tucker
Article Date: 03/13/2008 By Tucker Rep Kern: On April 19, 1995 in Oklahoma City, a terrorist detonated a bomb that killed my mother and 167 others. Nineteen children died that day. Had I not had the chicken pox that day, the body count would've likely have included one more. Over 800 other Oklahomans were injured that day and many of those still suffer through their permanent wounds. That terrorist was neither a homosexual nor was he involved in Islam. He was an extremist Christian forcing his views through a body count. He held his beliefs and made those who didn't live up to them pay with their lives. As you were not a resident of Oklahoma on that day, it could be explained why you so carelessly chose words saying that the homosexual agenda is worse than terrorism. I can most certainly tell you through my own experience that is not true. I am sure there are many people in your voting district that laid a loved one to death after the terrorist attack on Oklahoma City. I kind of doubt you'll find one of them that will agree with you. I was five years old when my mother died. I remember what a beautiful, wise and remarkable woman she was. I miss her. Your harsh words and misguided beliefs brought me to tears, because you told me that my mother's killer was a better person than a group of people who are seeking safety and tolerance for themselves. As someone left motherless and victimized by terrorists, I say to you very clearly you are absolutely wrong. You represent a district in Oklahoma City and you very coldly express a lack of love, sympathy or understanding for what they've been through. Can I ask if you might have chosen wiser words were you a real Oklahoman that was here to share the suffering with Oklahoma City? Might your heart be a bit less cold had you been around to see the small bodies of children being pulled out of rubble and carried away by weeping firemen? I've spent 12 years in Oklahoma public schools and never once have I had anyone try to force a gay agenda on me. I have seen, however, many gay students beat up and there's never a day in school that has gone by when I haven't heard the word f****t slung at someone. I've been called gay slurs many times and they hurt and I am not even gay so I can just imagine how a real gay person feels. You were a school teacher and you have seen those things too. How could you care so little about the suffering of some of your students? Let me tell you the result of your words in my school. Every openly gay and suspected gay in the school were having to walk together Monday for protection. They looked scared. They've already experienced enough hate and now your words gave other students even more motivation to sneer at them and call them names. Afterall, you are a teacher and a lawmaker, many young people have taken your words to heart. That happens when you assume a role of responsibility in your community. I seriously think before this week ends that some kids here will be going home bruised and bloody because of what you said. I wish you could've met my mom. Maybe she could've guided you in how a real Christian should be acting and speaking. I have not had a mother for nearly 13 years now and wonder if there were fewer people like you around, people with more love and tolerance in their hearts instead of strife, if my mom would be here to watch me graduate from high school this spring. Now she won't be there. So I'll be packing my things and leaving Oklahoma to go to college elsewhere and one day be a writer and I have no intentions to ever return here. I have no doubt that people like you will incite crazy people to build more bombs and kill more people again. I don't want to be here for that. I just can't go through that again. You may just see me as a kid, but let me try to teach you something. The old saying is sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you. Well, your words hurt me. Your words disrespected the memory of my mom. Your words can cause others to pick up sticks and stones and hurt others. Sincerely, Tucker Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: MDepr2007 on March 16, 2008, 01:13:38 pm It's odd , back when I was in school we still said the prayer and God wasn't as forbidden. We also didn't have gays getting beat up either. Guys where mostly jealous in sort because the gay guy always had the hot chicks hanging around them.
So I wonder, did taking God out cause things to get uglier in school towards gays or is it because schools are more liberal thinking now? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: USRufnex on March 16, 2008, 06:04:35 pm So, if we re-instituted state sponsored prayer in schools, everything we be just peachy...???
I don't think so. http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/school_prayer_has_always_been.htm http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=3164811&page=1 Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 16, 2008, 08:45:42 pm quote: For what it's worth, I don't agree that gays are more of a threat than islam. quote: http://www.mcpscurriculum.org/resources_parental_rights_violations.shtml http://americansfortruth.com/issues/youth-and-schools/sex-ed-curriculum http://www.tldm.org/News11/GaySchoolPlotUnveiled.htm In other news... quote: Sorry "Tucker", but Timmy was a backslidden Catholic and claimed to be agnostic, and never made any kind of mention that he killed because of his faith. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_McVeigh He was brainwashed by Nichols with anti-gov't rhetoric and was angry about Ruby Ridge and Waco. Why would "Tucker" make a claim that "an extremist Christian" did the deed when it wasn't?? quote: If someone wants to do something in their own room, thats up to them and they'll have to answer to God for it. I find it personally objectable and wholly unnatural. I'm offended that while we're watching tv as a family, we're inundated with commericals about shows with gay characters and situations and I don't care to have my kids exposed to the same. Now answer my questions... Why does homosexuality have to be publicized so much and taught in schools?? Why do I need to know if someone is gay?? Is it so I can give them some kind of special treatment? I treat everyone the same. It seems that gays want to make an issue out of it, perhaps self proclaimed victimhood. So much for "equality". Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 17, 2008, 08:59:48 am quote: There was no sarcasm that I recall James. You represent well what is wrong with modern Christian movements - convinced of your own infallibility. Not only is your religion correct and your book the right one, but your interpretation and understanding of it is THE right one. Vanity is a deadly sin James. Have the courage to evaluate other people's perspectives and try to be humble enough to consider the possibility that you are wrong. Jesus may have been the son of God and infallible, but you certainly are not. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: rwarn17588 on March 17, 2008, 10:45:20 am Maybe james needs to change his handle to "jamesimpotentrage."
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: azbadpuppy on March 17, 2008, 03:03:44 pm quote: Sorry but those aren't facts, they are merely websites that obviously are on the far 'right', clearly spouting propaganda and an agenda of their own. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's when the 'opinions' of others impede on my rights to live as a free and equal American that I have a problem with it. They all claim that schools are trying to 'teach homosexuality'. How exactly does one do that? If they mean that sex-ed classes are trying to teach students of the obvious differences that exist in our society, then I guess I would have to agree with them. Just because you don't agree with it, or don't want it around doesn't mean it does not exist and will just go away. If that were the case I doubt many people would care to acknowledge our current president in the hopes that he would dissappear. And to answer your questions with my own opinions(and being gay I think I may have a bit more knowledge and experience on this subject than you- just a guess: Homosexuality is publicized far less than heterosexuality, and is 'promoted' far less in our and every other society I can think of. Again, I'm not quite sure how it is 'taught' in schools, but not acknowledging it would only lead to fear and ignorance on the issue. I seriously doubt that any gay person cares if you know they are gay, much the same as I doubt you care if anyone knows you are straight. I know I don't. I know who I am and make no apologies for it. I also expect the government and other members of our society to treat me and everyone else equally, which unfortunately does not happen and that is where the problems lie. No 'special treatment' here, just equal treatment. Just like the civil rights movement in the 60's, the gay rights movement moves forward and will prevail because we live in a dempocratic society that protects the liberties and freedoms of ALL Americans. It may take some time, but it will prevail because it is the right thing to do. I suspect you, and other who share your beliefs are taught these things in your church. Fine. Believe what you want- no problem and nobody's stopping you. This is why we live in a free society. Remember the part about separation of church and state? That's a good one to live by too since it was set up by our founding fathers, but somehow that has fallen by the wayside.... Please give gay people the same respect. If you don't like something you see on TV, change the channel. I do it every time Bush comes on- it's a pretty simple concept really. In my world, I am NOT going to hell. In my world, everyone is truly made equal in the eyes of God. In my world, loving your neighbor as yourself is actually something to live by, and not just a catch phrase to use when it suits you. Now I just have one question for you: How is it that certain people believe that being gay is a 'lifestyle choice'? Ok, now I'm gay and I can honestly say this one puzzles me. First of all I know for a fact, since being gay and all, that I was born this way (I love when straight people think they know better than me on this issue). I also know that since I was raised by loving but strict Southern Baptist parents in a very 'traditional' American family that could have been used as the script for "Leave It To Beaver" that it had nothing to do with my upbringing. It truly perplexes me that anyone with a rational thought process could really think that someone would 'choose' a lifestyle that would cause them to become a pariah, to the point of being physically threatened and verbally abused. Fun stuff indeed. No, unfortunately I was never given an option. I love who I am and am proud of what I have accomplished, but if given a 'choice', of course I would have opted for the easier one. Please fill me in- I truly am curious. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: MDepr2007 on March 17, 2008, 08:33:37 pm quote: Sorry but those aren't facts, they are merely websites that obviously are on the far 'right', clearly spouting propaganda and an agenda of their own. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's when the 'opinions' of others impede on my rights to live as a free and equal American that I have a problem with it. They all claim that schools are trying to 'teach homosexuality'. How exactly does one do that? If they mean that sex-ed classes are trying to teach students of the obvious differences that exist in our society, then I guess I would have to agree with them. Just because you don't agree with it, or don't want it around doesn't mean it does not exist and will just go away. If that were the case I doubt many people would care to acknowledge our current president in the hopes that he would dissappear. And to answer your questions with my own opinions(and being gay I think I may have a bit more knowledge and experience on this subject than you- just a guess: Homosexuality is publicized far less than heterosexuality, and is 'promoted' far less in our and every other society I can think of. Again, I'm not quite sure how it is 'taught' in schools, but not acknowledging it would only lead to fear and ignorance on the issue. I seriously doubt that any gay person cares if you know they are gay, much the same as I doubt you care if anyone knows you are straight. I know I don't. I know who I am and make no apologies for it. I also expect the government and other members of our society to treat me and everyone else equally, which unfortunately does not happen and that is where the problems lie. No 'special treatment' here, just equal treatment. Just like the civil rights movement in the 60's, the gay rights movement moves forward and will prevail because we live in a dempocratic society that protects the liberties and freedoms of ALL Americans. It may take some time, but it will prevail because it is the right thing to do. I suspect you, and other who share your beliefs are taught these things in your church. Fine. Believe what you want- no problem and nobody's stopping you. This is why we live in a free society. Remember the part about separation of church and state? That's a good one to live by too since it was set up by our founding fathers, but somehow that has fallen by the wayside.... Please give gay people the same respect. If you don't like something you see on TV, change the channel. I do it every time Bush comes on- it's a pretty simple concept really. In my world, I am NOT going to hell. In my world, everyone is truly made equal in the eyes of God. In my world, loving your neighbor as yourself is actually something to live by, and not just a catch phrase to use when it suits you. Now I just have one question for you: How is it that certain people believe that being gay is a 'lifestyle choice'? Ok, now I'm gay and I can honestly say this one puzzles me. First of all I know for a fact, since being gay and all, that I was born this way (I love when straight people think they know better than me on this issue). I also know that since I was raised by loving but strict Southern Baptist parents in a very 'traditional' American family that could have been used as the script for "Leave It To Beaver" that it had nothing to do with my upbringing. It truly perplexes me that anyone with a rational thought process could really think that someone would 'choose' a lifestyle that would cause them to become a pariah, to the point of being physically threatened and verbally abused. Fun stuff indeed. No, unfortunately I was never given an option. I love who I am and am proud of what I have accomplished, but if given a 'choice', of course I would have opted for the easier one. Please fill me in- I truly am curious. And some grow up wanting to be with 10yr olds whats the difference between that and being gay? Not morals,not choice .... can't one be wrong and one be right..... and since your not straight , stop telling straight humans how they should think, It goes both ways , no pun intended[:P] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: FOTD on March 17, 2008, 08:51:50 pm http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/play.shtml?mea=229474
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 17, 2008, 09:22:25 pm quote: Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: okiebybirth on March 17, 2008, 09:37:08 pm quote: If you can't tell the difference between homosexuality that is between two consenting adults, and pedophilia that is the abuse of a child, then I don't think there is anyone with enough time and energy on this board that can educate you. But I think we both know that you do indeed know the difference, but choose to throw a red herring into the conversation. And as far as telling you how to think, I don't think anyone said you can't think how want: believe the world is flat, the universe revolves around Earth, or whatever you choose to believe. Azbadpuppy was speaking from his experience of being gay of which you can't attest to how it feels (I presume here) and whether he or anyone else "chose" a lifestyle or whether it's a orientation and as immutable as the color of someone's hair or whether they are left-handed or right-handed. As for me, I'm happy to be gay because I've truly learned how to appreciate people for who they are on the inside. There was a time that I would have given anything to be straight, but once I learned to accept who I am then I've learned what a blessing it can be to truly have to work for everything in life and not take anything for granted, including equality in the law. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 18, 2008, 07:29:31 am quote: +1 Please note the trend on here of people speaking in favor of tolerance and equality are using logic and rational statements. Most of those who profess the morale high ground are comparing homosexuals to people who intentionally harm children and offering divisiveness, belittlement, and judgment. If you want it to be a religious argument - which side of that equation sounds more like what Jesus would do? If this is outside the realm of religion, then the logical arguments presented from those that SHOULD be more emotionally invested are much more convincing than "the Bible said it is wrong." And if it is an emotional argument or merely an opinion, than the rights of people to be equal and free so-long-as those rights do not infringe on your rights trump your meager opinion. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: azbadpuppy on March 18, 2008, 10:17:11 am [/quote]
And some grow up wanting to be with 10yr olds whats the difference between that and being gay? Not morals,not choice .... can't one be wrong and one be right..... and since your not straight , stop telling straight humans how they should think, It goes both ways , no pun intended[:P] [/quote] Actually, the vast majority of pedophiles are identified as 'straight', but honestly I don't think they are straight or gay- just disgusting. I wasn't telling anyone how to think; it was more like encouraging people to think. Ironically, your misinformed and maligned post only proved my points, which I doubt you intended but thanks anyway. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: MDepr2007 on March 18, 2008, 10:26:16 am I'm not the one who put the "do" in the situation. I mentioned the "want" , which is the want of the 2 examples not the doing.
Both have a desire for something perverted and I guess the only difference is the age and consent..... Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: azbadpuppy on March 18, 2008, 10:35:53 am quote: Um, actually the biggest difference would be that having sex with children will get you 15 to life. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: grahambino on March 18, 2008, 10:52:37 am quote: Huh? What the heck are you even trying to say? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: rwarn17588 on March 18, 2008, 10:56:00 am MDepr, the urge to have sex with children springs from criminal activity -- i.e., those who sexually abuse children, who then become child abusers themselves.
Homosexuality, on the other hand, is fused in a person's psyche practically from birth. You can control your sexual preference about as much as you can your skin color -- not at all. This equating of child sex abuse to homosexuality (which occurs in nature, BTW) is either horribly ignorant, or you're simply trying to inflame the opinions of the ignorant. Either way, it's dishonest. Either way, stop it. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: MDepr2007 on March 18, 2008, 01:18:11 pm Then if the issue is consenting adults that makes it alright. Why should school aged kids be injected with the gay issue if they are not old enough for consent?
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: unknown on March 18, 2008, 01:23:25 pm quote: I think the issue is intolerant a**holes like yourself, but you are missing the point greatly[8)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: si_uk_lon_ok on March 18, 2008, 01:39:54 pm quote: Interestingly if anyone ever starts talking about Sodom to you, you can point out that according to aagadic tradition aka. the Talmud, the crime of Sodom is something altogether different. Sodom wasn’t the centre of wildness and corruption, but instead a place where legislation was evil due to a combination of malice and excessive respect for the letter of the law. So, when someone insists on their legal right to deprive another of enjoyment when he himself has nothing to lose is accused of midat Sodom. Which is why many of Gentiles call people like this, pains in the arse. So the next time some bible thumbing idiot ruins your day and doesn’t mind their business tell them they are a midat Sodom. (and run, I bet they hadn’t got to bit on turn the other cheek) Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 18, 2008, 03:26:46 pm quote: 1) Issue shifting / Irrelevant Conclusion Instead of engaging in the debate you continuously abandon positions and raise new ones. By doing so the nature of the argument continues to change until eventually the original issue is dropped. Most often performed when a raised position is found to be indefensible as stated. 2) Non Sequitur. A) Homosexuality is as bad as pedophilia. B) Pedophilia is illegal because minors can not consent C) "Minors can not consent to the gay issue either." That simply does not follow. 3) False Assumption Your statement assumes they are "being injected with the gay issue" rather than it being one natural to their environment and with which they will have to deal. - - - That's all the logical faults I could find in your 2 sentences in 1 minute. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 18, 2008, 03:50:44 pm Azbadpuppy,
First off, thank you for your reply and point of view. Please point out where I said that people weren’t born gay? I never said that. I don’t know if that’s the way it is or not. It makes no difference anyway. As far as discounting actual court cases as not ‘facts’ because they’re cited on a conservative website clearly shows that you haven’t even taken the time check my sources to a point that you can actually discuss them logically. Since your reading this, I guess, I’ve listed some of them below for your convenience. Colorado, 2007 A speakers panel from the “Conference on Word Affairs” was convened in the auditorium, all Boulder High school Students were forced to attend. The speaker encouraged the children to have sex and do drugs. Audio transcript (start at Part III). Chicago, 2007 A classroom of eighth graders was shown the movie at school, Brokeback mountain. This is an R-rated movie which features two cowboys having a gay affair. Massachusetts, 2007 A federal judge in Massachusetts has ordered the "gay" agenda taught to Christians who attend a public school in Massachusetts, finding that they need the teachings to be "engaged and productive citizens." New Jersey, 2007: Marlton, NJ, third graders were shown a film “That’s a family” that defined alternative families including lesbian and gay families. Terminology was defined in the film such as “you can actually use the word gay to describe two women who love each other or two men who love each other”. No parental permission was requested or notification given before the film was shown to the eight year olds. Maryland, 2006: Prince Georges County, a county school student was told by the supervisor that she could not read her Bible on school grounds during her free time, and she would be suspended if she continued. Maryland, 2003: Montgomery County, a public school curriculum was unanimously approved by the Board of Education, that postulated and introduced the concept of whether homosexuality was a sin - referring kids to religions other then their own. Myth: It isn't "normal" to be homosexual or have homosexual feelings. Myth: Homosexuality is a sin. The “right” answer to this question is that some religions are “biblically misguided”. Approved Teacher Resource: Issues and News: Myths and Facts, Family Pride Coalition. Massachusetts, 2005: A public school second-grade class was read a fantasy book (“King and King”) in school about two princes getting married. The prince in the fairy tale fell in love with the princess’ brother, instead of the princess. When parents objected, the teacher said because same-sex marriage is legal in their state there is no way a mother or father can opt out a child from such experiences (the David Parker case). The school read the same story to second graders the following year, over parental objections and ignoring parent’s requests to be notified. Massachusetts, 2006: A group of gay activists have filed a friend of the court brief in the David Parker case, essentially stating that a parent has no right to object to ANYTHING the public schools want to teach their children, regardless of whether it conflicts with their faith or not. California, 2006: California has passed a law adding “sexual identity” discrimination to its anti-discrimination laws. The teaching of most mainstream religions is that homosexual behavior is a sin. This religious belief is directly in conflict with the gay agenda. Similar laws in Australia and Canada have been used to justify enforcing “tolerance training” or acceptance of homosexual behavior even on the Catholic parochial schools. Kentucky, 2004, The Boyd County school district is attempting to force all students to attend sexual orientation and gender identity “tolerance training”, with no opt-out capability, after losing a law suit to the ACLU. James Esseks, litigation director for the ACLU's Lesbian and Gay Rights Project, told the Louisville Courier-Journal that "The schools have great latitude in what they want to teach, including what's in training programs, and the training is now part of the school curriculum. Parents don't get to say I don't want you to teach evolution or this, that or whatever else. If parents don't like it they can homeschool, they can go to a private school, they can go to a religious school..... Massachusetts, 2006 Social worker visiting a third grade class (8 year olds) explains to class about transsexuals and transgenders, principal will not apologize. Overseas Germany, 2005. Germany, parents were told they could not home school their child, the child had to be in the public school system where the child could be taught that homosexuality was normal. In Germany, "Fourth-grade students are shown videos of sexual intercourse and how a baby comes forth from this act. The narrator of the video assures the students that this sexual act feels good and is fun. Homosexuality must be accepted as normal and the children are encouraged to examine themselves as to their own sexual orientation.” Parents in Germany cannot home-school if they object, and must leave Germany or have their children seized by the state. The brand new curriculum under discussion for our 10th graders in Montgomery County also asserts that children should examine themselves as to their sexual orientation. Australia, 2004 Catholic private schools are being pressured by the Australian Education Union, to teach that homosexuality is normal. Canadian Catholic schools are already forced to comply. quote: I never cited the Bible in any of my discussion. But since you brought it up, I have a question for you. In 1Cor 6:13 it says….The body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body, and in 1Cor 6:18 it clearly states to “flee sexual immorality”. Certainly this applies to straight people, but does it apply to gay people as well? If not, why not? If we’re all equal before God, does this verse apply to you and other Christian gays? If not then how can things be equal if you get to go around having all the sex you want and I don’t? Something else about your statement that confuses me…which God are you talking about? Jesus said “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30. Since God condemns homosexually in the Old Testament and you (others) claim that it’s not discussed in the New Testament; since God and Jesus are one, does Jesus have a different view of homosexuality ? How can this be? That would mean that God is divided which is not the case. Please clearly explain yourself and please cite references and not just fluffy feel good concepts. And please don't explain things away by saying this or that isn't supposed to be in the Bible or it's interped wrong, or any other typical evasion to avoid the topic. Another question…..what specific ‘rights’ have you been denied as a gay person? Did you have to make a specific point of telling someone that your gay in order to be discriminated against in some way? If no one knows your gay, how can they discriminate against you? quote: No I don’t remember the ‘separation of church and state” part of this discussion. It’s not in the Constitution and not part of this discussion. That’s a different thread. quote: Prevail over what? Making sure everyone bows down to the gay lifestyle? Making sure all the kids know about how much fun it is being gay? Please explain. quote: I'm going to guess and say that someone forces you to have sex with another man? Are you totally incapable of having sex with a woman? If a straight guy wants to go out and have nothing but gay sex, he can do that, that's his choice. Anyone can choose to do as they please. If I choose to rob a bank, thats my choice, but I suffer the consequences if I eventually get caught. Again, thanks for your discussion. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: azbadpuppy on March 18, 2008, 08:15:50 pm quote: Actually, I read all of the information you double-posted above in your original links. I chose to discount much of what they claim simply due to the obvious bias placed on the information, and the fact that they only discuss one side of the situation. But since you seem to think they are all very important concerns, let me ask you about the 'Brokeback Mountain' viewing. Is is the idea of showing an R rated movie in school to 8th graders that is so egregious, or is it that the movie has gay people in it? I'm confused about that one. My guess if it was a 'hetero-themed' R rated movie it would not be listed on that website. And as far as the 'gay agenda' goes, I have often wondered about that too. I mean, I am gay, and if I have an agenda I feel I should have been notified of this, but to this day I have yet to receive that memo. I never quoted the Bible. I do not take the Bible literally. Honestly I don't know how you could. There are just too many contradictions and clearly outdated notions (hope you're not eating shellfish for dinner tonight). I have always found humor in the fact that many 'Christians' like to pick and choose parts of the Bible to take literally. I'm sorry but I cannot answer your questions on this matter since I don't understand exactly what 'sexual immorality' is as defined by that scripture, and I certainly do not believe that I do anything sexually immoral. Its kind of presumptuous of you to think that I would. As far as getting all the sex that I want, and you don't. Hmmm- sounds like a personal problem that you might want to take up with your significant other. I'm not sure I get ALL I want, but my significant other and I don't really have any complaints in that department- not that its any of your business. Again very presumptuous of you. I'm getting the feeling you might me stereotyping me as a promiscuous gay. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm really not that exciting. I am not disputing what is written in the Bible. I'm certain that we would have differing opinions as to its interpretation, but since I am not Christian Identified I am not overly concerned with it. I also don't believe in the concept of the 'trinity', so no I do not believe that God and Jesus were one person. You have to be of certain religions to believe that. Most of the world, actually, does not believe in the trinity. Again, presumptuous. Specific denied rights. Lets see, I can't legally marry, or enjoy the same tax benefits as you, I cannot visit my significant other in the hospital without his family's consent. I am not protected by law against certain crimes and discriminations as you are. I can be fired for being gay in Oklahoma, as in most states. Some states still have laws on the books outlawing sex acts between consenting members of the same sex. I cannot legally adopt children in many states. My possessions do not automatically pass on to my significant other in the event of my death since we aren't legally recognized. Basically gay people are treated as second class citizens in this country, much like black people were and women before them. This is why I stated that the gay rights movement will eventually prevail because, regardless of my treatment as a second class citizen I still have faith that what is right will eventually prevail. I'm sure it will take a supreme court ruling as it always does, but it will happen. As far as your absurd final statements, no one has forced me to have sex- male or female. That would be rape and is illegal. Are you asking if I am physically able to have sex with a woman? Of course. Do I? Um, no. I'm gay, remember? Are you able to have sex with a man? I don't know since I don't know your physical condition. Would you want to? My guess is no, although I could totally be wrong on that so forgive me if I am misinformed. I guess I am missing your point on this one, especially the robbing a bank analogy. I guess I should be used to that by now, having been compared in this thread to an assortment of criminal types ranging from terrorists to robbers, to pedophiles. Oh well. Like I said before, I'm really not all that exciting. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: rwarn17588 on March 18, 2008, 11:23:06 pm <Wingnut wrote:
If a straight guy wants to go out and have nothing but gay sex, he can do that, that's his choice. <end clip> Um, no. I'm a heterosexual. I'm certain I can't go out and have homosexual sex. That's because I'm not turned on by it. Choice has nothing to do with it. I'm not going to do a sexual act that I feel indifferent about, at best. That's not bigotry on my part; it's because it's the way I'm hardwired in the brain. I can no more change that part of my psyche than I can change which way the sun comes up in the morning. That said, as a married heterosexual, I have absolutely no objection to homosexuals getting married, having adoption privileges and other rights that married couples enjoy. In fact, I wholeheartedly support it, simply for reasons of human rights and common decency. People who are law-abiding citizens of the United States deserve the same rights as everyone else. You'd think, after the civil rights movement of the 1960s, that most everyone would be on the same page with this. But I guess some folks will have to be on the wrong side of history for a few more years before they finally, if ever, come around. It's OK if they don't -- the rest of society will simply consign their pitiful few to the dustbin of anachronisms where the supremacists, misogynists and misanthropes reside. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: si_uk_lon_ok on March 19, 2008, 01:07:02 am quote: I don’t think you should quote the bible until you have the bible in order. If you look at my post above the bible does not condemn homosexuality in the story of Sodom, in fact it condemns what you are doing right now. Does it not worry you that legalistic, boring kill joy has some how been translated into arse rapist in the English Christian bible? Just think how many other mistakes King James could have made. The whole thing looks like a pack of cards if you ask me. So how about this, seeing as we have some serious doubts about the validity of the bible as an accurate description of the word of g-d, you begin to use rational arguments to explain your case. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 19, 2008, 04:54:11 am quote: Then why was Sodom destroyed? Talk about picking and choosing! Gen.19:4 Before they could lie down to sleep, 7 all the men – both young and old, from every part of the city of Sodom – surrounded the house. 19:5 They shouted to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!” 19:13 because we are about to destroy it. The outcry against this place is so great before the Lord that he has sent us to destroy it.” Give up! quote: I don't think that a school needs to show 8th graders a movie with gay sex in it. It's not their place. I don't think an 8th grader needs to see an R rated movie, gay or otherwise. Mine don't. Most parents would agree. quote: You make it sound like your not allowed to have sex with a woman, Or only allowed to have sex with a man. I was in no way implying or comparing you to a bank robber. My point was/is that we have choices to make every day, from getting up in the morning to going to bed at night. What we do in between is our totally our choice. Who we have sex with or anything else, and we pay the consequences for our choices. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: TURobY on March 19, 2008, 07:33:02 am quote: Really? My version says: "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us know them." quote: Okay, so we agree that 8th graders shouldn't see an R-rated movie, regardless of the sexual orientation. So, this isn't a result of the "gay agenda", but instead a lapse in judgement. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: si_uk_lon_ok on March 19, 2008, 07:43:38 am quote: Ok, let me explain, the bible does says that. But the bible is wrong. If you read the Talmud the story is quite different. That was the point of my post. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. If you read my posts I explain why Sodom was destroyed. And the reason is surprisingly ironic considering the game you are playing. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Townsend on March 19, 2008, 07:57:08 am quote: Wingnut is changing the words in an already poorly interpreted work...you guys are giving him too much attention. I can make up lots of things to try to get some of my loon views across too. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 19, 2008, 08:07:03 am quote: A laspe in judgement? I wonder how many peoples hands it went thru to be approved to be seen. quote: Certainly, the Bible is wrong. It's only wrong when it says something that someone doesn't like or it doesn't fit their agenda. quote: Sorry, no games. I'm just trying to have one of those 'discussions to enhance understanding', but I just don't think those kind of things work if someone keeps calling someone else wrong. It's all a point of view. When someone looks at the reality of a situation and won't even agree that it's factual, or even actually happened, there's no point in going any farther with it. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 19, 2008, 08:19:29 am quote: Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: TURobY on March 19, 2008, 08:43:27 am quote: None. Obviously you haven't read the lawsuit. It was a substitute teacher that showed the video. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: HJKoelzer on March 19, 2008, 09:32:37 am Ms Kern has sure raised a flood of concerns in the country. There are a couple things I have wondered about. Before the 80s homosexuals were "homosexual", or even "Queer" or "Lesbian". They called themselves queer by the way. Then they took on the term "Gay". I have often wondered how a group of citizens can all at once call themselves a name that obviously means something entirely different then the word means. I believe they used the word gay because it has a happy and good connotation; not a bad one. The words homosexual and queer are viewed by most people as negative words and do not have a positive or good connotation; hence the name gay. About the same time they took on the rainbow as a symbol of their "gayness". I am sure there is not some "high council of gays" setting an agenda. But I do believe there is a loosely based agenda that desires the homosexual lifestyle become mainstream and accepted as a "normal and accepted" way of doing business. The fact that homosexuals want their ideals placed at the forefront of governmental policies indicates an agenda. They fact that political action committees exist for the sole purpose of promoting homosexual ideals and policies that support homosexual lifestyles indicates an agenda. There is a homosexual agenda. Homosexuals even are asking that they be viewed as a minority element in the nation. The homosexuals call it an alternative lifestyle. The word lifestyle means a choice is made to live a certain way. Homosexuals choose a lifestyle. Blacks, Native Americans, Asians, and Latinos never chose anything. Being labeled a “Minority” is a birthright.
Yeah Kern made some wild statements but she did have a few things right. There is an agenda and we (the non homosexuals) have the right to not have our children exposed to the "lifestyle" in school on television or anyplace for that matter. Homosexuals at one time were actually embarrassed to be homosexual. Now they flaunt it like a gun and actually take pride in saying "I am Homosexual". Ops, they would never say homosexual. I have to get more politically correct. NOT Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 19, 2008, 10:36:56 am Remember the good old days when Christians were forced to hide the fact that they worshiped the only god/man since Achilles? They had underground groups that went around trying to subvert people and invented pretty symbols like the fish to attract people. They even pretended like they were the correct people of all the religions but kept to themselves and rarely proclaimed themselves in public. They called it a "Christian lifestyle" or "living like Jesus." Now they stand up and proclaim they are Christian like they are proud of it.
- - - Welcome to the conversation HJ, but we went around this already. If you want to call homosexuality a "choice" then you must admit that you choose to be sexuality attracted to women. Therefor, you chose the heterosexual "lifestyle" (why is who you have sex with defining of your lifestyle anyway) and are trying to force your choice on others. And I'm pretty sure that like Blacks, Latinos, and Asians the homosexuals aren't trying to convert people nor are they saying their particular state of being is any better than anyone else's. It simply is, and they want people to recognize that. BUT, like the Asians, the Blacks, and the Latinos some people refuse to understand that it is an irrelevant footnote. Race, like sexual orientation, is not a defining characteristic of an individual. Also as a point of order, by your definition you are wrong. Blacks certainly chose to live a "black lifestyle." If you want to talk about it in such degrading terms - so be it. Large groups of blacks chose to wear baggy pants, to talk in a sub-English dialect, to shun education, and all the other stereo typical black "lifestyle" choices. While we're at it, how many homosexuals do you know? I know plenty around Tulsa and in my family (my god, I hope I don't catch gay when I get older!). For most of them their sexuality is a sub-note of their life (there are some hyper sexual queens just as their are Quagmires in the world of breeders). They are doctors, lawyers, salesmen, construction hands... they are fishermen, horse riders, gamers, and drinkers. Granted of the gay men I know a disproportional number fit into the stereotype occupations (nurse, flight attendant, several in fashion) but that's probably why stereotypes exist (reference the black stereotypes above). But the point is, their sexuality has about as much to do with who they are as it does for you or I - it is an important part of who I am but it is not the main part of who I am. Outside of my close friends discussions about sex don't really come up that much and have little impact on my relationships, work, or daily life (outside my marriage of course). Why would it be any different if I was sexually attracted to men? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: si_uk_lon_ok on March 19, 2008, 10:39:22 am quote: No, I’m saying the bible is wrong as it differs from the proceeding document. A discussion doesn’t work, when you don’t read my posts. I’m not making this up stuff up I suggest you read the Talmud! That’s the reality, I'm being factual. The Talmud says something different. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 19, 2008, 10:42:31 am quote: No! If you have to change it to fit how you believe, then you don't believe in the Bible. Your using it to be a tool to support your own made up beliefs. quote: Thanks for making my point above. quote: Thanks, self-appointed, High Priest CF, for showing us that there is no real way to believe in the Bible without being incorrect all the time, even when it is perfectly clear what it says. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: okiebybirth on March 19, 2008, 10:53:52 am quote: The "lifestyle choice" I made as a gay man, was that I'd live openly as a gay man and not hide in the closet. I would suppose being a closeted homosexual would be another lifestyle choice. I'm sorry if it offends you, well actually I'm not, but I will not hide and be ashamed for your benefit. You reference the terms used to describe this group of people. If you know anything about history, you'd know that African Americans were in earlier years called Negroes, and at other times in history called Black Americans. These names changed throughout history to reflect how this group of people identified. Again, you are upset that people identify as being "gay" instead of being "queer" or "homosexual". And again, I really am not worried that you are upset because I'm sure you reference this group in other terms besides the ones mentioned above. As far as a "gay agenda", What do you exactly think this agenda entails? Homosexuals do choose a lifestyle in that they live openly instead of being closeted. That's the only lifestyle choice they are making there. And this so-called agenda is actually a demand for human dignity, something that shouldn't even require all of the time and effort that it entails. Now living in this brave new world where homosexuals are open (which you interpret as "flaunting" but you don't look at it like heterosexuals "flaunt" their sexuality since it is the dominant "lifestyle choice" in this world), does bring a new recognizable minority that society sees while walking down the streets of America. How does a society handle this new dimension? A school system will try to address questions that these kids will have by not denying this reality. You, as a parent, have every right to instill a hatred of homosexuals if you feel it will serve the best interests of your child in the future. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: azbadpuppy on March 19, 2008, 10:59:34 am quote: You are so wrong on so many fronts. Where do you get your information from? Do you consider yourself an 'expert' on gayness? The term 'gay' as used to describe homosexuals dates back to the 50's, not the 80's in the U.S., long before the rainbow flag came into being. The flag was first introduced in 1978 in San Francisco as a symbol for gay pride, but has long been displayed in many cultures around the world as a sign of diversity and inclusiveness. I guess you haven't been paying attention, but the term gay is often used as derogatory slang, especially with the younger generation, with kids saying quite frequently, "That is so gay!" when they are referring to something they think of as bad. Wonder how that started.... Here we go with this so called agenda again. Why is it that because there are political action groups, like the Human Rights Campaign, that wish to promote tolerance, understanding and equality for everyone, this is somehow construed as 'evil' or 'wrong'? There are all kinds of political action groups out there, some of the most powerful being right wing, so-called pro-family groups promoting their own specific and exclusionary agendas. What about them? Whats your point on this? Gay rights groups are certainly not trying to place themselves on the 'forefront of governmental policies'. They are trying to gain equal rights for all Americans, which are supposed to be granted by the constitution. The only people placing the 'gay issue' on the forefront of governmental policies are the evangelical 'christian' right wing extremists who believe that homo's are going to hell, are somehow sick and twisted, and should not be treated equally under the law. Also, the only people I know that refer to anyone's 'lifestyle choice' as you put it, are people that think it is a choice, such as yourself. I personally think referring to anyone's sexual orientation as a 'lifestyle choice' is derogatory and offensive, not to mention completely uninformed. Thank you so much for speaking for all gay people. Let me be the first 'gay' to apologize to you for taking pride in being who I am, and for not being embarrassed anymore. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 19, 2008, 11:39:59 am Do you wear tassels on your clothing?
Do you forgive debts every 70 years? Do you mix cloth? Cut your lobes or shave your beard? Eat Kosher? Avoid women menstruating? If you kill a slave, do you pay the master a fair price? If not, then you do not do everything the Bible commands of you. Of course, you can negate most of this by using portions of the book that might imply that you can ignore other portions of the book. But then again, some passages indicate that we should adhere to all the commandments in the book: "For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous" (1John 5:3). "Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he lives? …Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Romans 7:1, 12). But really the new testament only adopts 9 of the 10 commandments and few, if any of the laws. But wait, doesn't that mean the whole Sodom thing gets thrown out too? Oh the heck with it... lets just say that some parts of the Bible negate other parts of the bible so we don't have to follow them, but it doesn't negate all the older parts of the bible... just the ones we don't like. But then again: Matthew 5:17-18 17 [And Jesus said] "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." So I guess you DO have to wear tassels to follow the bible, but you can threaten homosexuals with fire and brimstone still. I hope you see that I am not trying to mock you. But show that in fact very few people even try to literally follow the Bible. Ignoring translation and censorship issues, it is open to interpretation and contradicts itself. I won't bother with the list again. Live inspired by the Bible if you'd like, but pretending you live as it commands is just an exercise in interpretation and selective following. If you chose to ignore the condemnation of mixed fabrics in the old testament or to shun unclean women, surely you could show acceptance and understanding to homosexuals. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: NellieBly on March 19, 2008, 11:41:18 am I've discovered the Gay Agenda -- it's to improve the housing market single handedly!!!
Gays and house prices Here's one that'll confuse the Daily Mail - gays are good for house prices. Shihe Fu estimates that a rise of one percentage point in the proportion of same-sex couples living in an area raises median house prices by 9 per cent even 10 years later, controlling for some obvious other things. This suggests that gays improve neighbourhoods; they don't just choose to live in nicer places. This could be because gays higher disposable incomes (they don't have kids) attracts better shops and restaurants. Or it could be that gays' better aesthetic appreciation enables them to spot attractive but under-priced areas, and to care more about urban regeneration. How dare they come into our neighborhoods and make house prices increase! Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: tulsa1603 on March 19, 2008, 11:53:49 am quote: THey're taking over Brady Heights as we speak!! [}:)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: waterboy on March 19, 2008, 12:56:57 pm I remember the term "gay" was a fledgling term in the late sixties. Never heard it in the fifties but I was pretty young then. Primarily it seemed to grow because popular mainstream media could not use the words homosexual, lesbian, pregnant or menstruation in such public ways. Sometimes print media used the terms if there was a crime involved. Remind you of Taliban extremists? "Queer" or "friendly fellow" were much more prevalent in slang but still could not be used in media. It was this prohibition that led to creative uses by comedians of descriptive words to get the message across that someone was homosexual. It was also attractive for youth because of its usage by our grandparents (nosegay)as an arrangement of flowers or in their literature.
I had never heard the argument that if being gay is a lifestyle choice, then it follows that being heterosexual is also. Its logical and I like it but alas it seems flawed. Unless you believe that it is genetic, which most Kern-ers don't, it loses steam. They cling to the belief (unsubstantiated by science) that heterosexual is genetic and gays are overiding their genes with impulsive, sinful, selfish emotions. And don't confuse them with current science cause everyone knows those dang agnostic/atheistic scientists have an agenda! Either way, gays simply are. Like you CF, I rarely find a gay who defines his life by his or her sexuality. Nor a minority who frames their life by their color. It seems more common among fundamentalists. Usually it seems we use our hobbies or our jobs as defining characteristics. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: guido911 on March 19, 2008, 02:02:35 pm Okay, who has seen the "gay" terrorist photo?
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: PonderInc on March 19, 2008, 02:50:32 pm Oh, now I see the connection! It's a spelling error combined with misleading intelligence reports that led Kern to make her ignorant statement.
First of all, it's Saddam, not Sodom. And neither one was reponsible for the 9/11 attacks... Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Cirage on March 20, 2008, 08:04:15 am quote: Oh Lord! Why didn't someone tell me!? If anyone actually cares about Rep. Kerns' statements anymore, pick up a utw for her interview (http://"http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A20327") as well as community reaction (http://"http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A20328"). I guess it's nice to see that people are finally taking advantage of the comment section.... although the commenters seem a little Worldy to me. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Ed W on March 20, 2008, 09:28:02 am quote: Actually, they're out to take over our country. Then they'll redecorate and we'll all have to dress nicer. Seriously, many businesses actively solicit gay customers because their demographic has more disposable income. That's not an endorsement of the lifestyle. It's simply business sense. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: patric on March 20, 2008, 11:19:54 am Forget "Big Oil" or "Big Business"
The crazy lady from OKC is rolling out "Big God"! Kern says she'll accept help from Christian law firm Associated Press - March 20, 2008 9:35 AM ET OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) - An Oklahoma state representative who has been criticized for saying homosexuality poses a bigger threat to the U.S. than terrorism says she'll accept help from a Christian law firm. Rep. Sally Kern says she accepted the offer from the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich. The nonprofit public interest firm would represent the Oklahoma City Republican should legal action be filed against her because of her comments. A spokesman for the firm says it would not charge Kern to represent her and that her local attorney would be Bill Kumpe of Tulsa. The remarks by Kern gained nationwide attention after they were recorded and posted on the video sharing Web site YouTube by the Washington, D.C.-based Gay & Lesbian Victory Fund earlier this month. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 20, 2008, 11:32:14 am quote: And this is the best indicator that a group is becoming/has become mainstream. When segments of the business community begin to formally market to them, they're in, no matter what the God Squad might say. Just the fact that the Bravo network exists and is popular is a testament to the fact that Teh Gheys are just like the rest of us schlubs. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: rwarn17588 on March 20, 2008, 11:42:33 am <start clip>
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) - An Oklahoma state representative who has been criticized for saying homosexuality poses a bigger threat to the U.S. than terrorism says she'll accept help from a Christian law firm. Rep. Sally Kern says she accepted the offer from the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich. The nonprofit public interest firm would represent the Oklahoma City Republican should legal action be filed against her because of her comments. <end clip> Legal action? You mean there might be consequences for recklessly saying that homosexuality is worse than radical Islam? Other than exposing how stupid you really are? [}:)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: MDepr2007 on March 20, 2008, 01:17:05 pm quote: Wow !!! It's a good thing you're around. You have such great insight about recklessness[:O] Still got plastic couch covers? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: dsjeffries on March 20, 2008, 03:12:32 pm quote: Exactly, and I'd like to add some more about the 50s... With the year 1950 also came the basic idea of homosexuality as we know it today. Until Henry Hay founded the Mattachine Society in 1950, there was no collective group of gay men and women who considered themselves to be a repressed minority caused by the ways in which their lives are arranged. When people started arranging their lives not based on the nuclear family and what the parents and local community expected of them but instead how they actually were inside; after WWII was over and children began to leave their parents' homes en masse for the first time, the time that the suburbs began to boom with young families who wanted a fresh start; that is when 'gayness' as we know it today, was formed. Until this time, people didn't collectively organize their lives around their sexuality. The Mattachine Society's goals were: Unify homosexuals isolated from their own kind; Educate homosexuals and heterosexuals toward an ethical homosexual culture paralleling the cultures of the Negro, Mexican and Jewish peoples; Lead the more socially conscious homosexual to provide leadership to the whole mass of social deviates; and assist [our] people who are victimized daily as a result of our oppression. It appears self-evident that these goals are similar to ANY group which identifies itself as oppressed. The development of the Mattachine Society led to the creation of several gay groups around the country, and was very gung-ho on championing its causes until the Stonewall riot in 1969. The entire gay community had been shaken up and began to take on a less controversial role in things and began to fade away. quote: That's because the Christian "Peace on Earth and Goodwill Toward Men" actually includes an asterisk* at the end of the line which includes who the peace and goodwill are directed toward [;)], or more appropriately, who is excluded. quote: Does this NOT make sense to anybody? Is there also an asterisk at the end of this phrase? quote: (Insert asterisk and stipulations here?) quote: Emphasis on the bold. quote: +1 quote: The one thing I disagree with you on... I for one am not going to apologize, no matter how sarcastically, for being gay, for being me, the way I was made. Anyone who thinks that homosexuality is a choice should consider the following: quote: Ask yourself who would choose to bring that upon themselves and I bet you'll come up empty-handed. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Townsend on March 20, 2008, 03:30:37 pm wait for it...wait for it...
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 21, 2008, 09:15:58 am Az,
One final question... Are you or are you not responsible for your own actions? This is a simple yes or no question. The answer would be something like.... Yes, I'm responsible for my own actions, or No, I'm not responsible for my own actions. Thanks. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: TURobY on March 21, 2008, 09:35:38 am Let me rephrase the question back to you...
Wing, Are you or are you not responsible for your own preferences (tastes, colors, whatever...)? This is a simple yes or no question. The answer would be something like.... Yes, I'm responsible for my own preferences, or No, I'm not responsible for my own preferences. Thanks. The way it was previously written was to lead to a fallacy of many questions (a loaded question, if you will). Regardless of how Az answered, I could see you twisting it into a strawman argument. If you want a fair and intelligent debate, you have to avoid these logical fallacies. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 21, 2008, 12:44:11 pm quote: No. Typical evasion argument. Answer the question with a question so you don't have to answer. It wasn't even directed to you. quote: No twisting, like your doing. All I want is an answer and thats all. No debate or arguing. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: TURobY on March 21, 2008, 12:55:23 pm quote: The question wasn't directed at me, so of course I didn't answer. quote: If you don't want a debate or discussion, then this doesn't belong in a forum. It belongs in a private conversation between you two. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 21, 2008, 01:01:22 pm Really Wingnut, if ever there was a false dichotomy or a loaded question.
I choose to drive a Ford. I choose to type on the internet. But the question you want to ask is: Do you choose to be gay? Or do you want to know: Are you responsible for acting on your own gayness? Just ask the question, don't try to set it up. It's been asked and answered repeatedly in this thread. If you want to know this posters opinion, just ask - no one is waiting for an AH HA! moment. Do you choose to be sexual attracted to women? Either way, is it a choice to act on that drive? Of course it is, but 99.9% of people chose to act on their sex drives. So the relevant question reverts to do you chose your sexual orientation. I don't think I do, but maybe some people are not hard wired and can chose either way... Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 21, 2008, 01:45:23 pm quote: Wingnut makes the assumption that gay folk would secretly RATHER have sex with the opposite sex, but have chosen not to. In other words, there IS no such thing as truly "gay" in Wingnut's world; there're only straight people and "depraved" straight people calling themselves gay. Did I get that right, Wingnut? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 21, 2008, 04:02:33 pm In not so many words, that is kind of what I was thinking too. Which is why I put in the "do you choose..." language. There is room for honest curiosity and opinion on that point.
Since I am not gay and men have no sexual attraction for me I really don't understand homosexuality. I can't. So I have to reason it out for myself and/or ask people who are gay - which both lead me to believe it is NOT a choice. But, like I said, there is at least a reason for him to raise that question. It is a state of being that he does not understand (not faulting you wingnut, I bet you don't understand women either [;)]). But just do so bluntly or state your opinion on the matter.. If nothing else this is an open conversation and in that context it could be constructive. Setting up an "I got ya'" is generally not (though I admit to loving it, especially if goading RM about Hillary). - - - Off topic and probably way off base. BUT, since this thread seems to be a hot bed of gay issues... Why are so many gay men Hillary fans? Every gay man I have talked to (I really don't know any lesbians I talk politics with) is a die hard Hillary supporter. When I ask why, the reasons vary, but if the topic of gay rights comes up they don't deny that Obama will probably take the same lines as Hillary. Does anyone have any ideas, opinions, or seen any articles on this or is it just in my micro world of gay contacts in which this phenomenon exists? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: hoodlum on March 21, 2008, 04:34:58 pm how about something like:
Do you choose the color of your skin? Do you choose how many fingers you have? Do you choose how big your ears are? Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: azbadpuppy on March 22, 2008, 11:07:01 am quote: To answer your question, yes. Of course. I have always held myself responsible for my actions. If you are implying that I could 'choose' to not act on my natural desires, I suppose you are correct, but I see no reason for a vow of celibacy at this stage of my life. I don't see my actions as 'sinful' however , so I suppose if you do then that's your problem, not mine. Do you really care what I do in private? Honestly, like I said before I'm really not that exciting. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: RecycleMichael on March 22, 2008, 11:19:01 am I could be gay if it weren't for the sex part. Then, it would be just like hanging out with your buddies.
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 22, 2008, 02:02:02 pm quote: AzBP, Thank you for your honest answer. That is all I wanted to know. No sir, I'm really not interested in what you do in your bedroom. As before, my problem, like most others have, is not what you do in your room, it's when it's paraded in front of us and we're told we have to accept it against our beliefs. Example: the Parker case in Mass. Thank you very much for your openness in this discussion. Have a great day. One last thing..... quote: I can't believe that those silly Bible scholars still make the same mistakes on all the versions of the Bible for the last several hunderd years. Doesn't anyone ever tell those guys about all these errors!! I can't wait for the gay/agnostic/linguistic/non-believing, Bible scholars team to complete the offical TulsaNow Forum Bible; the Absolutely, Totally, Correct Translation, version 1.0. What?? They're not working on it? Awwww, i guess now I'm stuck using my old, incorrect, translation! How am I ever going to find the right path?? [;)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: okiebybirth on March 22, 2008, 04:14:01 pm quote: I don't believe in divorce, but I have it paraded in front of me everyday of my life too and people think I should accept it even though it's against my beliefs. The bible says,“So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate” (Matthew 19:6). But everywhere I go I see people who are remarried, and they display their sinful lifestyle in public right in front of me. I know they are probably fornicating behind closed doors as well. You know what I do? Nothing, because "Judge not lest ye be judged". People seem not to be strict bible literalist these days and instead of worrying about them, I choose to live my own life. And I have no worries about trying to pass laws to restrict their life because it really doesn't affect me. We all have different beliefs and I can't think of anyone that literally follows everything in the bible in these days (it would be difficult unless you made your clothes instead of buying them in the marketplace since Deut 22:11 says, "You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together.") Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Conan71 on March 22, 2008, 10:02:11 pm quote: That's pretty funny. Reminds me of something one of my gay friends used to claim: "Every man could be gay, the ones who aren't just haven't been handled properly or haven't identified with it yet." Sort of the homo version of the same thing you were saying. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: si_uk_lon_ok on March 23, 2008, 07:37:53 am quote: While I have no doubt about your sincerity about the factual inaccuracies that run through the bible. There is no need to correct all the errors in the bible and come up with a new book. You want to know what the bible really means? You want the interpretations and views of legal scholars who studied the bible before it got changed? (sorry for sounding like a broken record, but…) Read the Torah and the Talmud. You can’t selectively quote, you need to look at the whole body of the texts. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: dsjeffries on March 23, 2008, 11:02:09 am True followers of the Bible are required by Jesus himself to do exactly as he says, which, according to some people, is the exact text of the Bible.
"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." Deuteronomy 12:32 Better not eat pork or shellfish, wear mixed-fibre clothing, celebrate Christmas or Easter (both Pagan holidays), be around mentrual women, get a tattoo, work on Sunday, play Football (pigskin) or shave your temples! ...and follow those instructions on how to beat your slaves and wives! If you don't follow the rules, what are you? "And in vain they worship Me, Teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men." Mark 7:7 Sounds like Sally Kern-ism to me. Nut, I suggest you visit and read these pages: What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality (http://"http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian") The Bible and Homosexuality (http://"http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/globalrights/sexorient/bible-gay.html") Homosexuality and the Bible (http://"http://www.gaylib.com/text/misc13.htm") Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 24, 2008, 06:10:42 am I appreciate your post and your links for further understanding.
Hoping there would be something new, after reading the first 2 and some of the 3rd, I decided my intelligence had been insulted enough. Let me explain…. The first guy claims to be a DR. Ok, fine. He doesn’t state where he got it from which I find unusual. He claims to have studied for 50 years. Ok. He doesn’t know if there are 6 or 7 verses talking about homosexuals? From the website: '• Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior. • The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality. • Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today. ' He states there are 1 million verses in the Bible? Ok. There are 31102 verses in the Bible. http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/66books.html He Claims that Sodom was destroyed because they didn’t give to the poor??? Oh, please! They did all kinds of evil things and God destroyed them because they didn’t help the needy? He states: 'Listen to what Ezekiel 16:48-49 tell us: "This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God's eyes."' He seems to have missed verse 50 for some reason… Ezk 16:50 They were haughty and practiced abominable deeds before me. Therefore when I saw it I removed them. He goes on and on but never really gets to any real substance about anything. He has no references at all to support anything he says. I marvel at his ability to earn a Masters degree and to learn Hebrew and Greek, but, sorry, he has not said anything credible here other than his own theories. Your 2nd link is about as good. I really like this self-defeating statement from their page: ‘Bible translators must be aware of the errors that have been made in previous versions of the Bible; they are widely discussed in theological literature. But it would probably not be economically possible at this time to produce a translation of the Bible that was accurate. People are so used to expecting homophobic references in a half-dozen locations in scripture that they probably would not buy a Bible that was accurate to the original text, or which admitted that the meanings of certain words are unknown. ‘ Give me a break! Same old song, 2nd verse. People wouldn’t buy an accurate Bible?? Too expensive?? Fine, let’s all go on being incorrect and keep this silly debate going. They even go on the claim that the Bible translators are anti-gay and therefore translated in the negative toward gays! Again, no supporting reference, who, where, etc. It goes on to say there were 3 different possible same-sex relationships in the Bible that are not condemned. 2 of them they admit are not sexual. (why would they even list them?) On the 3rd, David and Jonathan, they try to draw a conclusion that they were without any supporting evidence other that the same “interpreted wrong” stance. Surprisingly, they do show different versions of the Bible, which all say the same thing, and claim, again, they’re all incorrect and its interpreted wrong. No citations as to where to find the correct translation or writings. They do have some footnote references. They are just more gay publications that will try to support their claims or from where they got their info from. A slanted view? Sure. They also reference different Bible versions. On the 3rd link, I gave up after I saw they were blatantly twisting Scripture. You know, twisting it to fit what someone wants to believe or to support their claims. Again, on the Sodom event, they claim that all the men that wanted to have sex with the Angels, really just wanted to see their papers since they were visitors??? From the article: ‘Because Lot was not a 'permanent inhabitant' of Sodom but was a ger or sojourner (that is residing temporarily) he needed permission to entertain foreign guests at night. Lot may have exceeded his rights by receiving and entertaining two foreigners whose intentions might have been hostile and whose credentials it seems, had not been examined. This explanation provides a natural reason for the demand, "Where are the men who came to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them." Hence, when the men of Sodom gathered around to demand that the strangers be brought out to them, "that they might know them" they meant no more than to "know" who they were and the city was consequently destroyed not for sexual immorality but for the sin of inhospitality to strangers. ‘ Again, read Ezekiel 16:50 above. From the net.Bible.org website, commentary about genesis 19:5, 10 tn The Hebrew verb éÈãÇò (yada’, “to know”) is used here in the sense of “to lie with” or “to have sex with” (as in Gen 4:1). That this is indeed the meaning is clear from Lot’s warning that they not do so wickedly, and his willingness to give them his daughters instead. sn The sin of the men of Sodom is debated. The fact that the sin involved a sexual act (see note on the phrase “have sex” in 19:5) precludes an association of the sin with inhospitality as is sometimes asserted (see W. Roth, “What of Sodom and Gomorrah? Homosexual Acts in the Old Testament,” Explor 1 [1974]: 7-14). The text at a minimum condemns forced sexual intercourse, i.e., rape. Other considerations, though, point to a condemnation of homosexual acts more generally. The narrator emphasizes the fact that the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with men: They demand that Lot release the angelic messengers (seen as men) to them for sex, and when Lot offers his daughters as a substitute they refuse them and attempt to take the angelic messengers by force. In addition the wider context of the Pentateuch condemns homosexual acts as sin (see, e.g., Lev 18:22). Thus a reading of this text within its narrative context, both immediate and broad, condemns not only the attempted rape but also the attempted homosexual act. This was a nice try; but overall, all these say the same thing: the Bible is interpreted wrong, and gives nothing as to where it can be found that is right. You know, I really was joking about someone writing a new version of the Bible so it could fix all the errors and mistakes, but I wish someone would so we can all be on the same page, so to speak. I have not had a chance to look at the Torah, but I will try when I get time. I feel that I've seen, heard, and read enough. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: rwarn17588 on March 24, 2008, 10:14:54 am I've grown crashingly bored with this subject. Of all this, I think we can all agree on this:
-- It's stupid for anyone to call homosexuality more harmful to American than radical Islam, especially when there's absolutely evidence to support this contention. That's what got my hackles up initially about Kern. Even if you don't like homosexuality, such a statement makes you question her sanity or judgment. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 24, 2008, 10:19:12 am Wingnut, I would be a huge fan of a sound translation of the Bible. It would be very interesting if it were translation from the most original available text as many book are - with notes that stipulate linguistic differences (like Hebrew "Brother" does not also mean "friend" or if the translation is one shall not "kill" or "murder"). With footnotes explaining cultural significance of items in the parables and so on. Oh, and write it in modern English lest though thinketh God doest not speaketh to thou in thine own tongue.
I am also looking for a archaeological history of the Jewish people (probably just a matter looking). I know the Biblical story - I also know that people tend to tell their stories in a light that makes them look good (remember the Maine! Those damn Germans sunk the Lusitania for no reason. Native Americans were dumb stone age savages that are better off. The Mexicans had it coming, we in no way picked a fight. We won the battles in Vietnam, but lost the war because of hippies. The Civil war was all about slavery). It would be interesting to read what evidence and historical context suggests about the exodus, the captivity in Babylon, who they killed to settle the promised land and so on. It would give me an interesting context to the story of Jesus - which certainly has elements of truth. How many people realize the great revolt after Herod accorded when Jesus was ~ 8 (that is to say he was well aware the people wanted a military revolt), or that crucification was very common for dissidents - the particular cruelty of it was generally up to the soldier who performed it, most were made to carry their own cross (really the top of the Tau "T" cross), and a well performed execution took DAYS of suffering (meaning Jesus was probably flogged too hard). Note the authors did not really describe the crucification because it was assumed the reader would no all too well what the event was (as a public spectacle). Though I am not religious, the historical context of the Bible is fascinating to me. - - - But back on point... if your religious convictions dictate you must ensure homosexuals do not gain acceptance then just say so. I can argue individual versus with you, I can form logical arguments, but when it comes down to it I can disagree with but not argue against religious convictions. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 24, 2008, 10:44:01 am quote: Interesting note about the Crucifixion... Jesus hung on the cross for 6 hours. The same times (9 a.m.-3 p.m.) that the priests were sacrificing the Passover lambs. After the lambs were sacrificed, they would put a cedar plank crossways in the carcase to hold open the ribs and one lengthways across the other. Looking at it from above, it made the same shape as the cross Jesus hung on. A study of the Passover and the Seder is facinating! Thanks! Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 24, 2008, 01:45:56 pm quote: The Latin cross or the Tau cross? Jesus was probably crucified on a Tau cross; being force to carry the ~100lb cross bar and affixed to a standing post - forming a capital "T" as it was much more efficient and easier to reuse. In all of it's cruelty, it was status quo for the Roman army so efficiency would be key... at least that's what scholars tell us. The record they have been able to find for survival on a cross was 10 days. Most lived 2 or 3 days as the Romans perfected their torturous displays for maximum effectiveness (a quick death was not seen as a deterrent). The "T" shape with arms out was adopted because arms tethered directly over head on a single post resulted in death in a matter of hours. The flogging was to make sure a person hanging on a cross did not have the appearance of a peaceful death. Thus ensuring blood, bruising, and surely a down trodden victim as the ritual progressed. Again, the gospels are moot on details other than it was horrible, as they assumed the audience understood crucification. Luckily, we do not - but the details given all seem very accurate. Sorry to go into details, but the accuracy on such items over 2,000 years later is interesting. Not to mention in a context beyond Biblical its hard to imagine thousands of people facing such a death. Unimaginable. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: flintysooner on March 24, 2008, 07:39:37 pm quote: Mel White is pretty well known. He earned his D.Min. at Fuller Theological Seminary and taught there quite a while. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Conan71 on March 24, 2008, 10:10:10 pm quote: Okay, I guess I couldn't keep from writing a windy reply at some point. Sorry to dredge a two-week old quote, I was tracking back to see where Mel White was first mentioned and found this. Never did find the first reference to him, but some of the replies have gotten pretty wordy. I'm going to assume your commentary on our political/religious origins stems partially from your study of the law. I once knew a fellow who had moved here to attend Rhema. He claimed that in order to sign the Declaration of Independence, one had to be a tongue-talking Christian. Not saying true or false on either of you, just interesting how in the study of the law, it would appear we weren't necessarily founded by Christians. Take some religious classes and you're told that only those with gifts of the spirit were worthy to be an "official" founding father. No idea which notion is correct, just fascinating where viewpoints are fomented. The mention of Mel White brought to mind a Sunday school discussion at a church I used to attend. The discussion was about sin, someone made the comment about how awful Mel White was for hoodwinking top religious leaders while being a closeted gay. Several other people piped up about it and how there was a cozy corner in hell for people like Mel White. Crux of the discussion though had been that all sin was equal. When it was my turn to speak, I pointed out from the looks of things in the room- there were gluttons, iconoclasts, drunks, and by popular statistics- most likely a few adulterers in the room. Place got real silent and there was a lot of self-reflection. As I recall, the room remained quiet for a couple of minutes. Point is, Jesus' covenant was to wipe away archaic laws and take away human judgement over other humans. Each and every one of us is a flawed human and sinner. How can I, with any conscience say who is and isn't worthy of God's grace? Last time I checked, he's the final authority on it, and last time I checked, I'm definitely not God. I can't say I agree 100% with Carlton Pearson, but his Gospel of inclusion is intriguing, and was one hell of a personal epiphany and conviction to cause him to lose a lot of power, prestige, and, money. I still have a problem with the idea of Hitler eating at the same table as saints, but that's God's deal not mine. Why should I be worried about who else is worthy of grace when I should only be worried about my own? That's where the trouble usually starts for Christians anyhow. One cool thing about when I go to New Dimensions is I see and talk to a lot of people who previously were un-churched. They either quit going or never went to church before because they were told they weren't worthy and standards were set by man's interpretation of who or what is worthy of grace. The gay and lesbian community seem to be well-represented along with many other common sinners. Back to Mel White. He endured years of what was essentially self-mortification trying to supress something he'd been told was bad and wrong all his life. But he realized he served a God who was all-forgiving and he realized God didn't intend for his life to be a daily hell. People can call Mel White a blasphemer or heretic if they wish and cast all kinds of dispersions. They need to realize though, it's ultimately not their call. He's bringing spirituality to many people otherwise disenfranchised by religion. I can't see anywhere that bringing more people to a spiritual foundation is a bad thing. If people are raising their children to what their own dictated moral code is in their house, then they should have no fear of homosexual messages in schools, on TV or in movie theaters. Science and andecdotal evidence seem to point that it's not environment, nor "recruiting" which makes someone turn out gay. The only proven way to not have a gay child is to not have kids. People need to quit worrying about who's lying, who's not living right, who's leading who astray and focus on their own relationship w/ God before they lose sight of it. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: flintysooner on March 24, 2008, 11:26:00 pm I probably first referenced Mel White by name.
DSJeffries had included a link to a page on soulforce.org that discussed Biblical issues regarding homosexuality that is authored by Mel White. WingNut criticized the contents of the page in a subsequent post and one point of contention was questioning the credentials of the author. I wanted to point out that Mel White did have a D.Min. from Fuller. He has several other degrees as well and a very considerable amount of work in the evangelical community besides. White co-founded SoulForce after he "came out." I actually think the arguments raised about the Scriptural references are quite interesting. The Genesis 19 account of the destruction of Sodom if read without bias can easily lead to other conclusions in my opinion especially if considering the Hebrew. At any rate that's why I posted about Mel White's credentials. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 25, 2008, 04:41:49 am quote: Thank you for the information. I don't know that I have ever heard of Mel White. My point was that most, if not all, of the Drs. I have heard speak usually state where they have been to school and earned their degrees from, or it in stated in their introduction. Of course, others here will say differently. I felt it unusual that he was specifically vague as to his schooling saying 'a conservative Bible seminary'. I also didn't feel that he gave me anything to go on, referencewise, other than what he was saying, especially in his discussion of Gen 19. If I'm to 'search the scriptures' about what I've been told, he gave me little to go on, other than what I would consider, personal opinion. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: flintysooner on March 25, 2008, 05:29:44 am White is pretty well known to evangelicals my age I suspect.
He was heavily involved in evangelical work for many years. He wrote speeches and was a ghostwriter for several big names and had some degree of public prominence. He taught at Fuller for a decade. He was married and had two children. So when he came out in 1994 it was a huge surprise and shock. He had tried various cures including a failed suicide attempt. It is so difficult for people who are gay and Christian. One of the problems is that so many Believers don't know any gay people, or think they don't. It is easier to demonize and objectify when you don't know real people. I've always wondered if that was perhaps part of what happened when Jesus saved the woman caught in adultery in John 3. I think it is a terrible tragedy for those on each side of the issue. It is very, very sad to me to listen to the anti-gay comments. The arguments about the Scriptural references seem quite cogent to me. I was surprised when I actually did a little research. I think White may very well be proven correct regarding some of his Scriptural arguments. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 25, 2008, 08:53:58 am quote: So what your saying, is an organization that believes they are right above all others, is founded to convince other people of that notion, and has a vested interest in proving their version - ignores historical writing (including the founders own memoirs), the founding documents themselves, as well as any and all understanding of law in the US (no Biblical references - NOT Christian Sharia) and teaches their own version of things? Amazing. [;)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: HJKoelzer on March 25, 2008, 08:56:29 am I suggest all the homosexuals on here go to this website.
http://www.narth.com/ Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Conan71 on March 25, 2008, 09:02:22 am quote: See, now I'm really confused, was it the Masons and Templars, tongue-talkers, Quakers, the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, or multi-theists which founded the country? [}:)] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 25, 2008, 09:15:41 am quote: That's awesome. I want to go and learn to be gay, is there a place that teaches me to be gay? You see, I've never like men sexually and I'd like to learn. quote: So one might be biologically predisposed to being gay, but not really gay. Does that mean that you like other men when you are born, but you can be taught to like women? Oh, I see. It means you were born with the gay virus and if you are abused as a child or have a small penis then you might catch the gay. - - - I think this groups heart is in the right place, but personally I just can't see being taught to like men. So I find it hard to believe someone can be taught to like a different sex. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Conan71 on March 25, 2008, 09:29:26 am ' No, we're not homosexuals, but we're willing to learn.'
(http://www.billmurray.it/Filmografia/Stripes/bill_murray%20stripes.bmp) Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: RecycleMichael on March 25, 2008, 09:29:53 am I could be gay, but I am too lazy to march in all those parades.
Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: we vs us on March 25, 2008, 09:45:18 am quote: Um, what if I suspect I'm gay, but don't have time or money for intensive treatment? I'd be satisfied with less gay if I could take my treatment on the go. Bottom line: can you reduce my possible gayness by 60% or more? If so, I'd like one of your brochures. Disclaimer: I am no more than 20% gay. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: Wingnut on March 25, 2008, 10:58:26 am Good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I saw this article on that NARTH website.....
By Neil Whitehead, Ph.D. Neil Whitehead, author of the recent book, My Genes Made Me Do It! responds to the evidence Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: cannon_fodder on March 25, 2008, 11:13:20 am Wow. What a study. Ummm, so many angles, so many one liners.
I think I'll pass. [:D] Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: guido911 on March 25, 2008, 11:41:27 am quote: No "Fort Dix" jokes. Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: patric on February 21, 2009, 12:59:50 pm The crazy lady has some competition:
ENID, Oklahoma -- An Oklahoma politician is catching a lot of heat but it has nothing to do with his campaign or platform. Instead, it's the way he runs his business. "If you come in here with all the in your face and a limp wrist, no I don't really want you in here and my customers damn sure don't want you in here," James said. James, who is also running for a spot on the Enid City Council, is keeping out what he calls "trash" and "people on welfare." Earlier this week, he told the local paper anyone who wears a hat inside a building is gay, and will be asked to leave. http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=9764682 Title: Rep. Kern's Statements Post by: guido911 on February 21, 2009, 07:59:47 pm quote: Well this guy will probably not be allowed in that moron politician's business: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jxU3fLHivgSqzF5NdHkOdsNYq6dQD96FIRGO0 |