The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Although I'm new, I have watched this forum and I know that they have great insight.

To that end, and in light of all of the controversy with the legislators who refused the copy of the Koran, I wanted to submit the story out of Dallas where the father of two girls, one 16 and one 18, murdered them as an "Honor Killing" because one was dating a non-Muslim boy.

I'm sorry that I can't complete the link, because I'm new, but it is on Dallasnews.com.

I found it on foxnews:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321486,00.html

The Koran didn't kill them, an unreasonable/crazy/stupid father did.

Well, their Aunt would say otherwise. She wrote an e-mail to http://www.debbieschlussel.com/ (http://"http://") which said:

From: Gail Gartrell
Date: Jan 6, 2008 7:30 PM

Subject: Pertaining to the Said Family

To: writedebbie@gmail.com

Debbie,

I am an aunt to these two beautiful girls! I am from the mother's side. YES! This was an honor killing! You nailed it sweety! My sister tried to get those baby's away years ago and you know...she was never allowed to see them again...well, they were brought to the hospital...only after she was comatose! My sister was punished for trying to tell the world what was going on! She died four years ago! But, these girls had no honor in life and no honor in death! Amina and Sarah both, told their mom if their dad killed them...they DID NOT WANT A MUSLIM funeral! Well, they had one anyway! Yeah, there was a "baptist" funeral before the muslim funeral....PLEASE, get out the word it was a farce! They were placed in a Muslim funeral home. The son, Islam...he walked out and went to get the Imam to stop it! My nephew got up and took him outside! The funeral proceeded but, many spoke and all but one...was a MUSLIM!

The Muslims who ran the funeral home...they had us all in a room a little larger than my walk-in-closet! The friends from school.....they could not fit in that room so, they lined them up, against the wall, and in front of the freezers for dead bodies! When it came time for the first song...we sat, sat, and finally, my husband told them he had a system just like theirs and would run it himself...OH...they miracuously got the music going! Then, they set it up so that they same song would play, instead of the other two. My hubby caught this and demanded it be paused, so that the other songs would play!!
As soon as the funeral was over, there was trouble, outside with the brother of Amina and Sarah, ISLAM, is his name! He got into it with one of his aunts and was telling her...get the f ---, out of here and then started running through the parking lot yelling....this f-ing funeral is over ....LEAVE!

Yes, this was an honor killing and I believe with all my heart that ISLAM, the brother, is just as guilty as his dad. Why? Because Amina would not go back home! He went over, where she was staying and was crying. "Please come home Amina and talk things out with Dad! He will not hurt you, I give you my word! I promise, you will be safe!" She trusted those words and went with him. Not an hour later....Sarah made that infamous call! She died immediately after she called as he took his time killing her. In fact, all we have been told is, "she had multiple gunshots".....I still have no clue how many bullets he fired at her. I do know she fought for her life as there is a bruise on her forehead which shows that she did not go out without a fight...one this precious and beautiful girl lost...to a man she knew as daddy!

Please feel free to contact me as I want their story told. They could not tell it but, Aunt Gail is making sure they are honored....even if it is by mere strangers!

Sincerely,

Gail

Obviously, this is a horrible tragedy.  Blaming the Islamic faith for this murder, in my estimation, would be equivalent to blaming Christianity for the death of Andrea Yates' children some years back.  

Same misguided argument.

+1 Lisa.

You can find out more at the International Campaign Against Honour Killings:

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/ (http://"http://")

Gotta agree with Grizzle.   The religion didn't kill anyone, a kook did.

I would also like to point out, that yesterday, January 9th, 65 MILLION legal gun owners in the US did not go out and kill someone.

Well, I have a slightly different take:

The book killed no one, but it certainly instructed him to.  The practice is still common in Islamic countries and is taught by religious clerics.  To pretend that Islam was not the driving force behind these killings is yet another blind homage to the surprisingly war-like religion of peace.

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

For many Muslims (most American/Western Muslims for sure) this is a distortion of their faith, for other's it is part of it.  I know of no Christian anywhere in the world that recommends drowning your children if you think they are possessed.  Yet this is the second time on this forum in several months that Islam has seen murdered a teenager for dating a non-Mulsim.

Any religion can be distorted, but when a large portion of followers distorts it one has to ponder the notion that they represent the religion.

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Well, I have a slightly different take:

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

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Christian Sacrifices (http://"http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-19328071-details/'Child+sacrifices+in+London'/article.do")

Honour killings have occurred in Muslim, Christian and Hindu families. It has nothing to do with faith.

The bible instructs me to kill a wide variety of people due to honour and small indiscretions, even if you found in the Koran similar statements it would not validate the idea of honour killings in Islam anymore than quotes from the Old Testament justifies Andrea Yates.

Apparently it's ok to beat your wife(s).
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A14A51D8-99D1-4E73-B745-737EF04FAB9D

Here's a bit about assimilation...
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24326&keywords=british+no-go+zones

Can't happen here, can it?

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Well, I have a slightly different take:

The book killed no one, but it certainly instructed him to.  The practice is still common in Islamic countries and is taught by religious clerics.  To pretend that Islam was not the driving force behind these killings is yet another blind homage to the surprisingly war-like religion of peace.

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

For many Muslims (most American/Western Muslims for sure) this is a distortion of their faith, for other's it is part of it.  I know of no Christian anywhere in the world that recommends drowning your children if you think they are possessed.  Yet this is the second time on this forum in several months that Islam has seen murdered a teenager for dating a non-Mulsim.

Any religion can be distorted, but when a large portion of followers distorts it one has to ponder the notion that they represent the religion.

---

This was my point.  It is not that the religion, itself, condones thisaction.  Rather, it is the fact that the religion is very misogynistic and treats women more as property than as human beings.  Another example of this is the woman who was recently raped and was sentenced to lashes for being in the company of a man who was not her relative.  This type of treatment toward women, which is accepted in Muslim countries, is dangerous when it is brought to the United States where it is not commonplace.

I think it has more to do with the social development of many of the countries that happen to be Muslim at this time. We dont have to go back that far in history and look at Christian countries and see that women were not treated as they are today. Even just the last 100 years things have changed a lot for women, minorities, etc. The last 200 years have seen incredible changes for a small population of people living in western countries. Small amount of time relativly speaking and for a small number of people and countries in the world. Globalisation and technology in the last 50 years has thrust modern societies and older ones right up "into each others faces", so to speak. And the mixing and overlaping of "ways" within all countries is just going to happen with some startling consequences happening, perhaps right next door to you.

I do not deny that other civilization/religions do or have done such things in the past.  However, I will not condone their actions either nor will I pass them off as something a few rogue members participate in if that is not the case.

I do know, however, that much of mainstream Islam openly encourages this behavior.  I am not aware of any group of Christianity that openly encourages such killings, which is why such incidence are reduced to rumor, investigation, and estimation.  Sorry if you don't like it, but the truth is much of Islam supports such actions and even publicly participates in them.

Why is it not PC to call out such atrocities for what they are?  Condoned religious killings.  Anyone that thinks Islam is currently a religion of peace had better be willing to say the same about Christianity during the Papal Inquisition, the Crusades, or the Conquest of the New World (during all of which parts of the religion thought it was horrible to do such things in the name of god but enough followed that it was officially tolerated).  When the Islamic Clerics, Imams and Mullahs  step up and decry violence in a near unanimous voice I'll start to listen.

But so long as most of it's world leaders will not, I'll continue to laugh at the Religion of Peace line while acknowledging full well that the beliefs and actions are of course, not uniform among followers.

quote:

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Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Well, I have a slightly different take:

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

---

Christian Sacrifices (http://"http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-19328071-details/'Child+sacrifices+in+London'/article.do")

Honour killings have occurred in Muslim, Christian and Hindu families. It has nothing to do with faith.

The bible instructs me to kill a wide variety of people due to honour and small indiscretions, even if you found in the Koran similar statements it would not validate the idea of honour killings in Islam anymore than quotes from the Old Testament justifies Andrea Yates.

---

Seriously?  You really think that the Bible promotes violence and killing as much as the Koran?  Christianity as Islam?  Last I checked, the New Testament superceded the Old Testament and Jesus taught to turn the other cheek and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Also, what about the other side of the coin?  Where are the Islamic groups promoting peace and reaching out to help others not of their faith?  Show me some large Islamic charitable groups and missionaries that do as much to help others not of their faith as the many Christian groups that are out there.  

Sure, there are wackos who do things in the name of being a Christian that are bizarre and wrong, but it can be shown through scripture that what they did was not condoned by Christ.  You can't say that about the wacko Muslims.

It looks to me like Islam, Christianity and Judaism are different branches of the same tree.  We all use variations of the same book.  And of course honor killings are hideous.

quote:

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Originally posted by TeeDub


Gotta agree with Grizzle.   The religion didn't kill anyone, a kook did.

I would also like to point out, that yesterday, January 9th, 65 MILLION legal gun owners in the US did not go out and kill someone.

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Excellent point.  I enjoy my 2nd Amend. right.

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder


I do know, however, that much of mainstream Islam openly encourages this behavior.  

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If you know please do share. I for one don't know any mainstream Muslim that condones murder.

quote:

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Originally posted by jackbristow

quote:

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Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Well, I have a slightly different take:

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

---

Christian Sacrifices (http://"http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-19328071-details/'Child+sacrifices+in+London'/article.do")

Honour killings have occurred in Muslim, Christian and Hindu families. It has nothing to do with faith.

The bible instructs me to kill a wide variety of people due to honour and small indiscretions, even if you found in the Koran similar statements it would not validate the idea of honour killings in Islam anymore than quotes from the Old Testament justifies Andrea Yates.

---

Also, what about the other side of the coin?  Where are the Islamic groups promoting peace and reaching out to help others not of their faith?  Show me some large Islamic charitable groups and missionaries that do as much to help others not of their faith as the many Christian groups that are out there.  

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Well off the top of my head there is Islamic Relief and the Red Cresent.

 

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'Islamic Relief (IR) is an international relief and development charity, which aims to alleviate the suffering of the world’s poorest people. It is an independent Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) founded in the UK in 1984 by Dr Hany El Banna. As well as responding to disasters and emergencies, Islamic Relief promotes sustainable economic and social development by working with local communities - regardless of race, religion or gender.'

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quote:

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Red Crescent Societies serves those in need without regard as to race, religion, class or political belief.  

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quote:

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Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

Quote

I for one don't know any mainstream Muslim that condones murder.

---

TO be clear, I was not referring to mainstream AMERICAN Muslims, I was referring to the global religion.  I don't know any Buddhists that joined a monastery, but to then conclude that it is not a pervasive and important part of that religion is completely uninformed. Let's see... what Mulsim's advocate violence?

* The religious Clerics in Iran routinely call for the destruction of Israel, the US, and about everyone else.  They are widely considered THE leaders in the Shi'a (Shiite) community.  

* Many Shi'a leaders in Iraq long call(ed) for the killing of, well, everyone not with them (Sadr seemed to see the light shortly after we killed Zarqawi)

* The state ministry of Religious Endowment in Egypt sponsors a knock-off of Sesame Street encouraging children to grow up to become suicide bombers and join the Jihad.  

* Osama Bin Laden is revered in large areas of the Muslim world by hundreds of millions of followers.

* Most of the Clerics and Imams in Palestine are funded by Iran or the house of Saud and openly advocate the killing of Jews in the holy land

* In the Philippines, the highest ranking Cleric is a leader in the long terrorist plot to set up an Islamic state (often also held responsible for the Bali bombing)

* Most Clerics in Saudi Arabia think the House of Saud is too soft and push for greater funding of the forces that routinely murder Israeli civilians

* The leading Cleric (or Amir) in Chechnya announced a few years ago that "our condition can only be changed with a weapon in hand….Allah tells us to … prepare our forces to wage war, as much as we can."

* In Britain the leader of the largest mosque, Omar Bakri Mohammed, defender the right of captures to behead their non-Muslim prisoners and "use whatever tools you have" to kill non-Muslims in the middle east.

* I think some Muslims blew up a few buildings in NYC, and much of the Muslim world considered it God's Punishment against the U.S. and great masses cheered in the streets (2nd try to boot).

Lets see... ongoing conflict regions of the world:
Sub Sahara Africa
The Holy Land
Iraq
Afghanistan
Chenya
Bali/Indonesia
the Balkans
Kashmir
the Philippines
Somalia

Think... think.  What do all these area's have in common.  Oh yeah, Muslims trying to kill someone else (or a different sect of Islam) for one reason or another.  Strange that nearly all of the worlds conflict zones are Muslims vs. Someone (exceptions: serious Columbian drug wars, minor Nigerian oil conflicts).

Lets think of terrorist attacks at large over the last 10 years:  Madrid, London, New York, Washington DC, Pennsylvania, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Jalalabad  , Delhi, Chenya, Manilla, Bali, Lebanon, Tel Aviv and on and on and on.  What do those all have in common, let me think...  Now let list the notable non-Mulsim terrorist attacks since 2000:

Well, you know.  I can't think of any. See if you find any:
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Terrorist.html

Do I need to go on?  These are not fringe elements.  Muslims have no Pope, they do have Pat Robertsons, Oral Roberts, and the ilk... they command many times the followers (instead of a nation of 300mil they have a Muslim world of 1.5 Billion) and instead of just hating people and casting them to hell - they advocate blowing them up.

Do yourself a favor, go to Al-Jazeera's English translation page and read what their interviewees have to say (Al Javeera actually does do a good job at times of bringing on different vantage points to counter them - credit where due).  Pat Robertson would have been a liberal or at best a moderate in the larger Muslim world.  The pervasiveness of these beliefs, the number of teachers and followers, the fact that some control or influence nation states, and it's popularity in the heart of the Muslim world makes it something more than a fringe element.

So no, I do not personally know any Muslim (or person for that matter) who condones murder.  I also don't pretend that all Muslims share your belief in Islam as a Religion of Peace.  Not all Muslims believe in violence - but enough to make it a prominent and accepted theme in most area's dominated by Muslims.

The Muslim world also sees great charity, large philanthropic societies, and plenty of people dedicated in the name of their faith to doing good. In any belief there are "extreme" sides.  But at the moment, it seems the violent side of Islam has more support - or at least is able to act at will using their support base.  An Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, or Hindu leader who made half the comments advocated above would be an outcast.

Sorry if you don't like that fact.

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:

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Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

Quote

I for one don't know any mainstream Muslim that condones murder.

---

TO be clear, I was not referring to mainstream AMERICAN Muslims, I was referring to the global religion.  I don't know any Buddhists that joined a monastery, but to then conclude that it is not a pervasive and important part of that religion is completely uninformed. Let's see... what Mulsim's advocate violence?

* The religious Clerics in Iran routinely call for the destruction of Israel, the US, and about everyone else.  They are widely considered THE leaders in the Shi'a (Shiite) community.  

* Many Shi'a leaders in Iraq long call(ed) for the killing of, well, everyone not with them (Sadr seemed to see the light shortly after we killed Zarqawi)

* The state ministry of Religious Endowment in Egypt sponsors a knock-off of Sesame Street encouraging children to grow up to become suicide bombers and join the Jihad.  

* Osama Bin Laden is revered in large areas of the Muslim world by hundreds of millions of followers.

* Most of the Clerics and Imams in Palestine are funded by Iran or the house of Saud and openly advocate the killing of Jews in the holy land

* In the Philippines, the highest ranking Cleric is a leader in the long terrorist plot to set up an Islamic state (often also held responsible for the Bali bombing)

* Most Clerics in Saudi Arabia think the House of Saud is too soft and push for greater funding of the forces that routinely murder Israeli civilians

* The leading Cleric (or Amir) in Chechnya announced a few years ago that "our condition can only be changed with a weapon in hand….Allah tells us to … prepare our forces to wage war, as much as we can."

* In Britain the leader of the largest mosque, Omar Bakri Mohammed, defender the right of captures to behead their non-Muslim prisoners and "use whatever tools you have" to kill non-Muslims in the middle east.

* I think some Muslims blew up a few buildings in NYC, and much of the Muslim world considered it God's Punishment against the U.S. and great masses cheered in the streets (2nd try to boot).

Lets see... ongoing conflict regions of the world:
Sub Sahara Africa
The Holy Land
Iraq
Afghanistan
Chenya
Bali/Indonesia
the Balkans
Kashmir
the Philippines
Somalia

Think... think.  What do all these area's have in common.  Oh yeah, Muslims trying to kill someone else (or a different sect of Islam) for one reason or another.  Strange that nearly all of the worlds conflict zones are Muslims vs. Someone (exceptions: serious Columbian drug wars, minor Nigerian oil conflicts).

Lets think of terrorist attacks at large over the last 10 years:  Madrid, London, New York, Washington DC, Pennsylvania, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Jalalabad  , Delhi, Chenya, Manilla, Bali, Lebanon, Tel Aviv and on and on and on.  What do those all have in common, let me think...  Now let list the notable non-Mulsim terrorist attacks since 2000:

Well, you know.  I can't think of any. See if you find any:
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Terrorist.html

Do I need to go on?  These are not fringe elements.  Muslims have no Pope, they do have Pat Robertsons, Oral Roberts, and the ilk... they command many times the followers (instead of a nation of 300mil they have a Muslim world of 1.5 Billion) and instead of just hating people and casting them to hell - they advocate blowing them up.

Do yourself a favor, go to Al-Jazeera's English translation page and read what their interviewees have to say (Al Javeera actually does do a good job at times of bringing on different vantage points to counter them - credit where due).  Pat Robertson would have been a liberal or at best a moderate in the larger Muslim world.  The pervasiveness of these beliefs, the number of teachers and followers, the fact that some control or influence nation states, and it's popularity in the heart of the Muslim world makes it something more than a fringe element.

So no, I do not personally know any Muslim (or person for that matter) who condones murder.  I also don't pretend that all Muslims share your belief in Islam as a Religion of Peace.  Not all Muslims believe in violence - but enough to make it a prominent and accepted theme in most area's dominated by Muslims.

The Muslim world also sees great charity, large philanthropic societies, and plenty of people dedicated in the name of their faith to doing good. In any belief there are "extreme" sides.  But at the moment, it seems the violent side of Islam has more support - or at least is able to act at will using their support base.  An Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, or Hindu leader who made half the comments advocated above would be an outcast.

Sorry if you don't like that fact.

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Ok, I don’t know where to start pulling that apart and I don’t have the time to fully dismantle the argument. Just to randomly go through some of your facts though.

One, Omar Bakri Mohammed is not the leader of a large mosque in the UK, but a small fringe group that is banned from almost every mosque in the UK. Not that he is even in the UK anymore, because he moved to Lebanon and isn’t allowed back in the country. He is most definitely not a representative of Islam.

Also seeing as I’m in the UK at the moment and you’re in Oklahoma we can think of two good examples of non Islamic terrorist group attacks. We had the IRA and you had the OKC bomb. Europe has also had ETA, left wing and right wing brigades and only this week someone in Scotland was jailed for a planned terror attack as part of the Scottish National Liberation Army. Islam does not have any monopoly on terror or murder. There are nationalistic movements of all faiths that use violence and being twisted and sick has nothing to do with religion.

When you talk about people celebrating September the 11th, there were no masses celebrating, in fact Arafat donated blood to be sent out. The only people I see celebrating 9/11 when I turn on my TV are some Baptists from Topeka.

Of course some people on Al-Jazeera will have extreme points of view, that makes good TV. Fox does it and so does every TV station you want some extremist and some ultra liberal and see them slog it out. Here is an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QfNbIQCIwI

Back to the point of this which was about honour killings. They are not condoned by mainstream muslims, neither are they only found in Islam, they are found in Sikhs, Druze, Hindus and Christian families. Even in the USA there are white Christian honour killings, they are no different to the guy who kills his ex-wife or kills a woman who is trying to leave him. thats an honour killing and its happening in the USA, UK and all over the world.

Don't bother dismantling the argument, but it is true.  

What's more, I specified SINCE 2000...  the IRA has had no attacks since 2000, nor has Oklahoma City been attacked since 2000.  So those two examples you were able to come up with fail - also the attack in Japan was before 2000.  The vast majority of terrorist attacks and all of them I can think of this millennium have been committed by the Religion of Peace.

And to counter that point you remind us of one idiot family?  In response to thousands of killings, terrorist attacks, and entire Islamic nation state sponsoring such acts you point to one universally hated family in Topeka.  Pardon, but that is not a strong counter point.

and yes:  Religiously condoned killings because an Islamic women dates a non-Muslim man is different than a man murdering his wife and other horrible acts.  Get back to me when the Vatican starts stoning women for speaking in Church.

I'm not even a Christian (know you have me pegged for a zealot), but I don't recall seeing masses of Christians chanting death to so and so en mass.  I don't recall Christians cutting anyones head off on camera.  I don't recall Christian's killing as many civilians as they can in the name of god and 40 virgins.

Look at Fred Phelps rallies, the KKK, the Neo Nazi's - they are all protested, spat upon, and legal maneuvers are taken to beat them down.  That is notably lacking in the throngs of Muslims around the world.  In fact, in many Islamic countries I could be imprisoned or put to death just for expressing these views (or just executed on the street, like in the Netherlands).

You know what, fine.  Lets cut to the chase:

What is the most violent major religion currently on the fact of the planet?

1. Jews
2. Christians
3. Hindus
4. Buddhists
5. Muslims
6. Heathens/Atheists/Agnostics

I'd put violence advocated by and committed in the name of Islam against the rest combined, and the scales would still tip in favor of Islam.

Again, sorry.  Many Muslims are upset their religion is dominated by people advocating violence.  We can argue the merits of the belief based on the historical facts and founding of Islam - but to deny that it is currently gripped by violence more-so than any other group seems a futile argument to me.

I will, however, be open to any rebuttal you have to offer.  It is entirely possible that my myopic American view is entirely wrong - and once again, CNN has let me down.  

and hey, don't feel bad. I think I've pissed off everyone here at one point or another.  Especially every religion. [:P]  I know it is personal, but I do not intend it to be so.

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Don't bother dismantling the argument, but it is true.  

What's more, I specified SINCE 2000...  the IRA has had no attacks since 2000, nor has Oklahoma City been attacked since 2000.  So those two examples you were able to come up with fail - also the attack in Japan was before 2000.  The vast majority of terrorist attacks and all of them I can think of this millennium have been committed by the Religion of Peace.

And to counter that point you remind us of one idiot family?  In response to thousands of killings, terrorist attacks, and entire Islamic nation state sponsoring such acts you point to one universally hated family in Topeka.  Pardon, but that is not a strong counter point.

and yes:  Religiously condoned killings because an Islamic women dates a non-Muslim man is different than a man murdering his wife and other horrible acts.  Get back to me when the Vatican starts stoning women for speaking in Church.

I'm not even a Christian (know you have me pegged for a zealot), but I don't recall seeing masses of Christians chanting death to so and so en mass.  I don't recall Christians cutting anyones head off on camera.  I don't recall Christian's killing as many civilians as they can in the name of god and 40 virgins.

Look at Fred Phelps rallies, the KKK, the Neo Nazi's - they are all protested, spat upon, and legal maneuvers are taken to beat them down.  That is notably lacking in the throngs of Muslims around the world.  In fact, in many Islamic countries I could be imprisoned or put to death just for expressing these views (or just executed on the street, like in the Netherlands).

You know what, fine.  Lets cut to the chase:

What is the most violent major religion currently on the fact of the planet?

1. Jews
2. Christians
3. Hindus
4. Buddhists
5. Muslims
6. Heathens/Atheists/Agnostics

I'd put violence advocated by and committed in the name of Islam against the rest combined, and the scales would still tip in favor of Islam.

Again, sorry.  Many Muslims are upset their religion is dominated by people advocating violence.  We can argue the merits of the belief based on the historical facts and founding of Islam - but to deny that it is currently gripped by violence more-so than any other group seems a futile argument to me.

I will, however, be open to any rebuttal you have to offer.  It is entirely possible that my myopic American view is entirely wrong - and once again, CNN has let me down.  

and hey, don't feel bad. I think I've pissed off everyone here at one point or another.  Especially every religion. [:P]  I know it is personal, but I do not intend it to be so.

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Oh so I’m only allowed up to 2000 now? You specified, so I have to obey? Why 2000? So I have to fight with one hand tied because you said so. Can I specify that your reply has to be in iambic pentameter or it doesn’t count?

I’m not denying that Islam has extremists, all religions do. I think it’s a problem that religion has in general, I also think the less educated, more oppressed and more angry the person the more dangerous a tool religion can be.

Again I dispute your claim that Islam is dominated by people advocating violence. I think there is also a difference between a war involving Muslims and a war that proves Islam is violent. When America goes to war people do not say it is a Christian war, they separate the faith and the country, even when the President ends every address with ‘God bless America’.

You are right there are many wars in the middle east and conflicts all around the globe, which you correlate with Islam. However there is a difference between correlation and causation. The countries that are at war at the moment tend to be hot, non white and near the equator too, however no one is saying living somewhere hot makes you violent. Just because there maybe Muslims involved in a war does not make Muslims more violent. I’d like to also say that many of the war zones of the world have borders that wouldn’t look out of place in the rockies, maybe one of the problems in the decolonised world was the way Europe carved it up.

There are Muslims who are liberal, even secular, there are democratic Muslims as well however they never make such good TV.

If you haven’t seen masses of Christians calling for peoples deaths, you haven’t seen footage from the Lebanese civil war. When Christians live in conflict areas they can be as violent as anyone else and also use their religion just as well as anyone else to justify it.

There is nothing inherent about Islam that makes it violent. Also going back to the honour killings there are not mainstream groups who would condone such action. Its not about religion these killings they are about HONOUR, that’s why you find them in lots of regions and cultures that place too much emphasis on honour. In the same way if a man feels his honour has been threatened by his wife attempting to leave him or by his wife living with a new man and he kills her it is about honour, not their particular faith.

I think we should call this a day. We’ve scared off everyone from the thread and I’ve got to revise and watch a Werner Herzog box set before I get a late fee from the rental place. And we’re also probably never going to agree.

1) I specified 2000 because it is the start of a new century, new millennium, and generally the start of a new era (911 kind of changed things for much of the Muslim world especially).

2) As I have said repeatedly, not all Muslims are terrorists.  However, currently in the world... all terrorists are Muslim (duly noted that it has not been true in the past and can change at any moment).  And of course, most Muslims in the world are not involved with any misdeeds - but too many are.

3)  The United States holds firmly to a separation of Church and State - most of the Muslim world conforms or strives for the opposite.   So when the U.S. attacks it is not under the Christian flag, but when Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and on and on - it is usually literally under the Islamic flag.  The religion itself does not preach "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" but advocates the religious leaders at the State (as int he grand caliphates of old).

Sorry, if your country enforces "religious law" or other State actions use religion as an excuse - the connection is both inevitable and fitting.

4) No matter how you phrase it, Islam is the most violent religion in the world today.  As I stated above, the violence done in the name of Islam dwarfs all others combined.  

A short history of Islam:
Mohammad raises money by raiding caravans and marrying his rich boss
Under the new Islamic banner Mohammad conquers Medina - join me or die (or if Christian or Jewish pay a tax if you'd prefer).
Then Mecca again by force of arms
Then most of Arabian Peninsula, by force.
The Caliphate goes on to the coast of the Mediterraneans, then Egypt, then Babylon, then Persia, Turkey the Afghanistan, all the way to India the Islamic army marches.
* About here Islam hits the Golden age, dwarfing and preserving Greek literature, culture, and science as Christian Europe digresses drastically.  
Then the Balkans (stopping at the gates of Vienna in 1683).
Then the North Coast of Africa and into Spain as well as pushing South of the Sahara (stopped by the inquisition from 1478- 1834).
(incidentally, Christians did the same to most of Africa, parts of Asia, most Pacific Islands, and the whole of North America - serving God by killing everyone to set up a few churches.  Oh yeah, and plunder their gold.  They failed in their Mid-East attempts historically).

Now compare that list of the historic Islamic Empire to the trouble spots in the world today.
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Sorry again, but everywhere Islam borders anyone else (even various Islamic sects) we see violence to this day.  Either the regions conquered by Islam happen to be radically violent, or something inherent to the teachings of Islam - perhaps coupled with the long standing culture of those areas, sows violence.    But most areas with a Islamic majority see more violence than other areas.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be a jerk.  But why do I see more violence in Islamic areas than any other area?  Why are there large crowds of Muslims chanting "Death to America, Death to the Jews" but I do not see Jews nor American's reciprocating?  Why are there hundreds of suicide bombings each year by Muslims, but none by anyone else?

I would really appreciate it if you shook my vantage on this, but it seems Islam currently has the market cornered on violent extremism.  Either because it happens to be centered in the Middle East (historically tough neighborhood) or for some other reason.

(again, not being daft.  I really would appreciate a different view point)

Blah blah blah... there. Someone else interjected.  [:D]

It’s funny the way people dance around the Muslim world’s chief complaint against the West:  Our support of Israel.  Muslims have felt that first Britain then the U.S. have been making war on them ever since the founding of Israel.  That’s were the Muslim hatred of the U.S. comes from – period.  

At some point it might make sense for the U.S. to consider the cost / benefit ratio of our relationship with Israel.  I for one believe that eliminating the dual citizen arrangements between the U.S. and Israel would go a long ways towards making sure that all U.S. citizens put U.S. self interest first.

The war mongering right wingers that have led Israel since Rabin’s assassination have been a disaster.  There is a great deal of dissent within Israel.

Finally, Muslim women for the most part would not trade their situation for that of women in the U.S.  They see that men in the U.S. abandon their women and their offspring with great regularity.  After all, one of the largest demographics in the United States is single mothers living in poverty.

Having said that I would not want to live in a Muslim culture, or Israel or any theocracy, but living here in the Bible belt in the midst of radical Christians isn’t exactly my idea of fun either.  I think of our local religious nuts as the Tulsa Taliban.

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Originally posted by Hometown

After all, one of the largest demographics in the United States is single mothers living in poverty.

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Hyperbole much?

According to the US Census Bureau there are 10 million single mothers.  
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/004109.html

With 300,000,000 people in the US I can list MANY MANY demographics that surpass "single mother"  (most races, college educated, people who make $250,000 a year, # of  millionaires, employees of the auto industry, attorneys, and on and on).  Certainly NOT one of the largest demographics.

To figure how many are "living in poverty" lets state some givens:

Some are single mothers because of divorce.  Of those, half were the instigator of the divorce.  

Of those children born to single mothers out of wedlock some  have fatherly contact if not direct involvement (my girlfriend and I were living together), again probably 50% have contact with dad.

Of those without fatherly contact, most still receives child support.

That number includes the small percent of single mothers who wanted to be a single mother (in vitro, lesbian couples count as single, or other circumstances in which a woman wants to eb single with children).

Of those that do not fall into the above categories, still others are certainly single mother's who are not in poverty.  

It is safe to assume, that given that 3% of our population is a single mother, and of that at least half is above living in poverty - that it is NOT "one of the largest demographics."  Unless 1-2% is suddenly a large population - in which case Ron Pauls 6% support is HUGE.
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What's more, while women are happy in some parts of the world to be told what they can wear, who they can speak to, who they can go in public with, and be whipped or executed for disobeying their masters husbands - I'm sure you could find plenty who do not appreciate it.  Like you said, some are happy in their situation - other's would welcome the hazards of freedom.

To imply that they somehow need the security of a man is a bit over the top.  Mohammad, after all, married his boss (before god told him women shouldn't work and that he could have multiple wives).

Oh, and I would challenge you to find a dozen American women who would give up the right to vote, wear what they want, talk to whomever the please, and have their own lives... in exchange for a man that will keep a roof over their head in exchange for lifelong servitude.  

oh, and yeah... divorce would be rare here too if we made it illegal.  Funny how easily you can change statistics if you make a law and enforce it with draconian measures (or just ignore the statistics).  Just like Iran got rid of all its homosexuals by making it illegal.

With regard to the comparison between Jewish customs and Muslim customs in the U.S., there is no comparison.  For one, Israel is a state, not a religion/theocracy.  Of course there are many Jews there.  However, as has been pointed out, Judaism is a religion and not a race.

Let's compare Jews to Muslim's in the U.S.:

1)Jews assimilate into the culture (no funny headgear or wife-beating);
2) Jews have contributed a great deal to our society (check out the names of some of the charitable foundations in town);
3) Jews in Israel do not strap bombs to their bodies and blow up innocent people in the name of their faith, nor do they bomb and otherwise terrorize U.S. citizens; and foremost
4) Jews do not end up as topics of discussion on news forums such as this.
4)

Cannon, you are so sincere and you put so much into your posts.

Excuse me, I meant fastest growing demographics.

And of course women in the U.S. have been socialized to expect what our culture offers.

You know it's stetching it a bit to deny the importance of a father's financial contribution to a family.  My mother, who was divorced, would have been happy to tell you about that.  Indeed my mother also believed that multiple wives was more humane than divorce.

What I find fascinating about Muslim culture is the friendships between men and the way men love their fathers.  In the U.S. father/son relationships are often conflicted and a lot of men don't have close friendships with other men.

Would I live in a theocracy, say Iran or Israel?  Not for a second.

Homosexuality in Arab Countries?  It is supposed to be widespread.

Israel is a theocracy.  And Islam is the fasting growing religion in the United States.

There is a great deal of diversity of opinion in the Jewish community, including Jews who are very sympathetic to the plight of Muslims.

Anyway, Jews, Christians and Muslims all practice variations of the same religion and they are a guilt ridden, unhappy bunch.

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Originally posted by Hometown

It’s funny the way people dance around the Muslim world’s chief complaint against the West:  Our support of Israel.  Muslims have felt that first Britain then the U.S. have been making war on them ever since the founding of Israel.  That’s were the Muslim hatred of the U.S. comes from – period.  

At some point it might make sense for the U.S. to consider the cost / benefit ratio of our relationship with Israel.  I for one believe that eliminating the dual citizen arrangements between the U.S. and Israel would go a long ways towards making sure that all U.S. citizens put U.S. self interest first.

The war mongering right wingers that have led Israel since Rabin’s assassination have been a disaster.  There is a great deal of dissent within Israel.

Finally, Muslim women for the most part would not trade their situation for that of women in the U.S.  They see that men in the U.S. abandon their women and their offspring with great regularity.  After all, one of the largest demographics in the United States is single mothers living in poverty.

Having said that I would not want to live in a Muslim culture, or Israel or any theocracy, but living here in the Bible belt in the midst of radical Christians isn’t exactly my idea of fun either.  I think of our local religious nuts as the Tulsa Taliban.

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Did you forget the decades long battles our forefathers had with Muslims.  It gave rise to the creation of the Navy.  It's all in the congressional records, of old.  There was no Israel back then but they came after us.  Thomas Jefferson once asked a Muslim leader why they fought us when we did nothing aggressive towards them.  He replied it was their Isalmic duty.

Nowhere in the Koran is Palestine mentioned.  But Israel and its land is.  Likewise, this is so in the Bible.  The Bibical link with Israel is major for Christians.  It should not be overlooked.

By the way, can you tell me more about the Tulsa Taliban?  That's a pretty serious charge.  

We're having a lot of state/religion confusion here.  Islam has an estimated 1.6 billion adherents the world round, making approx. one of every 6 people in the world Muslim.  That's a lot of folks. Here's a great graphic, showing you countries in the world that are approx 50% muslim (in yellow) and more than 50% muslim, (in green).  

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/Muslim_World.png)

It's worth noting that majority Muslim countries are West African, East African, Middle Eastern, Central Asian, Southeast Asian, and Indonesian.  You're talking about a religion that spans the world, and innumerable cultures. Even more important, there's certainly no centralized Muslim Bureaucracy or Head Imam directing the actions of the Umma.  It's far-flung, diverse, and certainly decentralized.

I think it's also crucial to note that these Muslim countries aren't Westernized, aren't industrialized, are by and large quite poor, and have huge uneducated populations.  Even more, I'm willing to bet that representative democracy isn't the top form of government among these countries.  

I guess I find it hard to blame Islam when faced with the diversity of circumstance in which it's practiced.

As for the "religion of peace" thing, Wikipedia is your friend. (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_of_Peace")

 

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The Arabic term Islam (#1573;#1587;#1604;#1575;#1605;) is defined as "submission", rather than "peace", and comes from the term aslama, which means "to surrender" or "resign oneself".[4][5] The word salaam (#1587;#1604;#1575;#1605;) ("peace") shares the etymology of the word Islam.[6] This has led to a widespread misinterpretation that "Islam means peace".[7]

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You know it's stetching it a bit to deny the importance of a father's financial contribution to a family. My mother, who was divorced, would have been happy to tell you about that. Indeed my mother also believed that multiple wives was more humane than divorce.

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I do not deny the importance of either a father or a mother's support in a family.  Be it financial or otherwise it would be damn hard to raise a child alone.  Hell, it's hard to do it as a couple.

My point was that many women are able to go it alone and succeed.  Not being tied to a man enables both women and our society as a whole many more opportunities and is a major reason why no Muslim country enjoys the standard of living of any Western Nation.  Sorry if I got a little carried away, and I'm no feminist, but the idea of anyone as a lower class citizen by law appalls me on the deepest level (I know this is not what you were arguing in favor of and understand the dichotomy in even the strictest Muslim family is surely more complex ).
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wevus wroteI guess I find it hard to blame Islam when faced with the diversity of circumstance in which it's practiced.

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Wevus, that's why I blame Islam.  Other than casual threads of Arabic culture (the way Italy and Ireland are both Western), many Islamic countries have little in common BUT Islam.  Yet they all seem to share similar problems socially, politically, and in terms of violence.

Frankly, but for Turkey who's Western provinces are rather wild) & Dubai ( all of the nations are rather untamed.  One would think SOME Islamic country would develop Western or Eastern values, industrialize, and generally get along.  But it remains that consistently Islamic countries have problems with internal and external conflicts hindering development and relations.  Bombings, assassinations, tribal wars, and conflicts with neighboring nations are the norm in all of the highlighted regions.

In fact, forces that are in favor of relations with the West or Western ideas are constant targets.  NO need to go over all that again...

Basically Wevus, because they are so different and the only common thread is Islam - I correlate Islam with the regions problems.  Violence, poverty, and poor relations with anyone not Islamic. In fact, hold that map in your mind and think of the worldwide conflicts going on (Somalia, Darfur, Chechnya, Bulkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, Phillipines), the fact that the only common thread is Islam is what has me concerned.

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder



Wevus, that's why I blame Islam.  Other than casual threads of Arabic culture (the way Italy and Ireland are both Western), many Islamic countries have little in common BUT Islam.  Yet they all seem to share similar problems socially, politically, and in terms of violence.

Frankly, but for Turkey who's Western provinces are rather wild) & Dubai ( all of the nations are rather untamed.  One would think SOME Islamic country would develop Western or Eastern values, industrialize, and generally get along.  But it remains that consistently Islamic countries have problems with internal and external conflicts hindering development and relations.  Bombings, assassinations, tribal wars, and conflicts with neighboring nations are the norm in all of the highlighted regions.

In fact, forces that are in favor of relations with the West or Western ideas are constant targets.  NO need to go over all that again...

Basically Wevus, because they are so different and the only common thread is Islam - I correlate Islam with the regions problems.  Violence, poverty, and poor relations with anyone not Islamic. In fact, hold that map in your mind and think of the worldwide conflicts going on (Somalia, Darfur, Chechnya, Bulkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, Phillipines), the fact that the only common thread is Islam is what has me concerned.

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True that Islam correlates to troublesome areas, but just as the old saw states, correlation is not causation.  It's as easy to see poverty, or lack of formal education as similar correlators.  Or authoritarianism, or post-colonialism, or rapid industrialization, etc.  I'm not suggesting that these are all prime movers (I'm pretty unsure of how to gauge the effect of post-colonialism, for instance), but to pick religious affiliation alone amongst all of those relevant societal factors seems a little oversimplistic.

When I was talking about diversity of circumstance, I should have been clearer.  I meant to take Islam in context with these other factors, all of which further complicate whether Islam itself is solely responsible for the volatility of that part of the world.

I didn't mean to imply that Islam alone is responsible Wevus.  

But the fact that Muslim areas are so varied and spread but share many characteristics indicates a strong correlation between Islam and poverty, lack of education, industrialization, and the aforementioned violence.  It is nearly impossible to prove societal causation, but given the near universal nature of the correlation (notable exceptions: Dubai, Eastern Turkey - which are both decried as too Western), a strong link exists between Islam and those conditions for some reason.