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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: swake on November 14, 2007, 11:15:14 am



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on November 14, 2007, 11:15:14 am
The billion dollar project will move forward.

Jenks Schools will get $7.5 million of the $13 million they were wanting.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071114_1_A9_hSome68134



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on November 14, 2007, 11:37:17 am
What do you think about the TIF Swake?  Was Kirby Lehman just gas-bagging or is this really a bad deal for JPS?

I've just figured that more retail/MUD in that area is going to attract more homes to undeveloped land w/in the Jenks district along with converting flood plain/grazing land to income-producing has got to be a bonus for the school system.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: fung shui on November 14, 2007, 11:47:01 am
JPS is a Malcolm Baldridge award winner. Jenks is on Money Magazine Top 100 cities to live in in America-don't you think they are coming with or without this development. Jenks needs sales tax from retail development. This is of a class and magnitude to serve the region and is not another big box ho-hum.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on November 14, 2007, 11:51:43 am
Ever get the impression government has lost it's way?

Shameful.

Developers should have to find investors, financial institutions, and users before the government is inserted into something they have no business doing.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on November 14, 2007, 11:54:07 am
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

Ever get the impression government has lost it's way?

Shameful.

Developers should have to find investors, financial institutions, and users before the government is inserted into something they have no business doing.




Somehow developers have convinced municipalities this is how business is done these days.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on November 14, 2007, 11:54:41 am
I think the school system was right in wanting more money, those 600 residences are going to bring in a lot of new students that have to paid for, but it’s disingenuous to say it would cost the district money because Oklahoma has level funding for all school districts via the state contribution, so if the district is short on student funding (and it is NOT, at least compared to the rest of the state) the state makes up the difference.  

The district wanted the increased bonding capacity. And it could have used it, but, the city of Jenks (which is not at all the same as the Jenks Schools district) has done a lot for the district, like working to bring in and expand Kimberly Clark and the second power plant. These were only marginally good for the city as few residents of the city work in these plants, but the having the facilities located in Jenks means that the property taxes that the district can bring in for bond issues are only about half funded by taxes on residential homes. It’s makes passage of school bonds much easier. Jenks Schools would have liked to expand that reality even more.

It’s important to note that the city of Jenks has a population of about 16,000 and the district is at about 90,000, mostly in Tulsa. So the good of the city of Jenks and the good of the district are not always the same and in this case may not have wholly been the same. On balance I think the school district is coming off as being short sighted. The River District is going to be good for the entire metro area as a real regional tourist draw. It’s going to increase the property values around the district and spur other related developments that also will increase property taxes.

That said, this was just a negotiation. The district didn’t get all they wanted, but they got a lot more than was offered to start the process. That’s how is should work. And I think the district does not want to look to the voters like they just rolled over on this plan and also don’t want to look like they did so for future TIFs. I think Jenks Schools is at the end of it’s ability to absorb TIFs and they have to be against this one at least on paper so they can better fight future TIFs. I think if the district was really hard against this plan you would have seen a much bigger fight than you did.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on November 14, 2007, 12:57:15 pm
Actually, to be a stickler,  the article states that the TIFF has not been approved by the City Council. Plus there has to be a public hearing as well. I think in the end it will go through, but I have learned that ya never know what can happen lol.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on November 14, 2007, 01:10:42 pm
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

Actually, to be a stickler,  the article states that the TIFF has not been approved by the City Council. Plus there has to be a public hearing as well. I think in the end it will go through, but I have learned that ya never know what can happen lol.



Well, to be clear, this was an offer from the city of Jenks to the TIF review board. So for the city to reject this plan it would be rejecting it’s own proposal.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: fung shui on November 14, 2007, 01:22:28 pm
good point Swake, however it says the Committee amended the original proposal and it is sending the  amended proposal back to the Jenks City Council.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: USRufnex on November 14, 2007, 05:45:25 pm
This is use of TIF's for simple economic development, and JPS is right in bringing up the issue that the area would rise in value w/o the development.

This is a different situation compared to the proposed Tulsa Landing or East End/East Village...


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on November 14, 2007, 06:02:23 pm
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex

This is use of TIF's for simple economic development, and JPS is right in bringing up the issue that the area would rise in value w/o the development.

This is a different situation compared to the proposed Tulsa Landing or East End/East Village...



I'm not sure I'm following you.

According to the story Swake quoted, sounds like the Creek Tribe was interested in buying the land if RDDG doesn't develop it.  FAIK, the Creek Tribe would be exempt from property taxes.

Without that, there's no doubt the property value would increase as other development inches closer, but I don't think it would increase in value near as quick as just going ahead with the development now.  In 18 years it should represent a significant windfall.

The upshot for JPS is it makes So. Tul. and Jenks more liveable, that will attract even more homeowners, ergo more home development with it's attendant property tax.

I'm still somewhat lukewarm on the concept of municipalities being on the hook for major new developments by private developers, but if that's what's going on around the country to get things like this done, that's what you have to do to compete and keep up.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on November 14, 2007, 06:26:28 pm
TIFFS originated from governments desire to take blighted and debilitated areas and transform that area into an economic driver.

Jenks, it seems you just might be taking advantage of that original intent. And besides, this project borderlines crap shoot. What was the business of "if we don't do this the Creek Indians will?"
Was that an indirect threat or is there truth in that comment?

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on November 14, 2007, 06:41:11 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex

This is use of TIF's for simple economic development, and JPS is right in bringing up the issue that the area would rise in value w/o the development.

This is a different situation compared to the proposed Tulsa Landing or East End/East Village...



I'm not sure I'm following you.

According to the story Swake quoted, sounds like the Creek Tribe was interested in buying the land if RDDG doesn't develop it.  FAIK, the Creek Tribe would be exempt from property taxes.

Without that, there's no doubt the property value would increase as other development inches closer, but I don't think it would increase in value near as quick as just going ahead with the development now.  In 18 years it should represent a significant windfall.

The upshot for JPS is it makes So. Tul. and Jenks more liveable, that will attract even more homeowners, ergo more home development with it's attendant property tax.

I'm still somewhat lukewarm on the concept of municipalities being on the hook for major new developments by private developers, but if that's what's going on around the country to get things like this done, that's what you have to do to compete and keep up.



If the Creek have the land placed in reserve it would be tax exempt.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: fung shui on November 14, 2007, 09:15:50 pm
The City of Jenks is not on the hook for anything. Unlike Tulsa Hills the TIF money is not being fronted by a revenue bond to pay the developers. The development pays for the infrastructure/amenity/other qualified expenses then pays their property tax after the assessor sends tax back to the city it is rebated to the developer.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: RecycleMichael on November 14, 2007, 09:51:27 pm
quote:
Originally posted by swake
The district wanted the increased bonding capacity. And it could have used it, but, the city of Jenks (which is not at all the same as the Jenks Schools district) has done a lot for the district, like working to bring in and expand Kimberly Clark and the second power plant. These were only marginally good for the city as few residents of the city work in these plants, but the having the facilities located in Jenks means that the property taxes that the district can bring in for bond issues are only about half funded by taxes on residential homes.


Oddly enough, the Kimberly Clark paper plant in Jenks contributes property tax to Bixby schools and not Jenks schools.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Neptune on November 14, 2007, 10:00:18 pm
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael

Oddly enough, the Kimberly Clark paper plant in Jenks contributes property tax to Bixby schools and not Jenks schools.



Jenks has a preference for corn cobs, and a visceral hatred for toilet paper.  

That's what I heard anyway.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Double A on November 14, 2007, 11:30:19 pm
# Strike the city's option to buy a new baseball stadium under consideration at the site and ensure that it is owned by no entity that would be exempt from taxes.

Does this mean the Driller Stadium will not be included in the TIF that was approved? If so, does that mean the stadium isn't moving forward?


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on November 15, 2007, 08:40:22 am
quote:
Originally posted by Double A

# Strike the city's option to buy a new baseball stadium under consideration at the site and ensure that it is owned by no entity that would be exempt from taxes.

Does this mean the Driller Stadium will not be included in the TIF that was approved? If so, does that mean the stadium isn't moving forward?



No,

The way I read it, this doesn’t impact the construction of the stadium. The original plan was that the stadium would be sold at the end of the TIF period to the city of Jenks for one dollar. If the city owns the stadium, it’s not on the property tax roles. The provision means the stadium has to remain under some sort of ownership that is not public that would then still pay property taxes that would then benefit Jenks Schools.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: bacjz00 on November 15, 2007, 09:08:27 am
Driving by the TIF land on the way to work this morning...I was wondering.  Who wants to look at that power plant during ball games and while shopping?  

I know the cooling benefits are obvious, but it seems like everywhere you ever think about developing on the river in Tulsa County, you're never very far away from one of these eyesores.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on November 15, 2007, 10:27:22 am
I still like the concept of a stadium on the COT M & E site at 23rd & Jackson.  You can build the stadium with it's "back" to the eyesores, and you'd get a pretty good view of the river and downtown from there.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: sgrizzle on November 15, 2007, 11:18:22 am
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

I still like the concept of a stadium on the COT M & E site at 23rd & Jackson.  You can build the stadium with it's "back" to the eyesores, and you'd get a pretty good view of the river and downtown from there.



I'll go for here or the east village..

Anthing else... is craaap!
(http://www.hateeveryone.com/opinion/images/myers_scottish.jpg)


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on November 15, 2007, 02:35:11 pm
From the renderings of the stadium I have seen, and looking at the sightlines, you will not be able to see either the river or downtown from inside the stadium unless you are perhaps on the top rows.



As for the power plant and the refineries. I dont know why so many locals think they are ugly. I think they look really neat. I have visitors from out of town, when driving along riverside at night go, "Wow, whats all that? Thats neat."  In cities like London and Paris, and many others, they have power plants by their rivers and have even turned some of them into museums. Some new buildings like one in Paris, they actually put all the pipes and "guts" of the building on the outside to purposely make it look industrial.

You can choose to decide its ugly and unattractive, or cool and beatuiful. Guess it depends on your attitudes and how you want to go through life seeing things. Each person can of course have their own ideas of what is beautiful but it irks me when people make narrow minded, negative statements that just assume everyone thinks the same. It feels kind of rude or even mean to those of us who do find beauty in those things.  

The beautiful Centre Pompidou in Paris

 http://www.centrepompidou.fr/img/pano2.jpg

http://people.csail.mit.edu/harr/Paris/pompidoumodernartmuseum.jpg


The wonderful Tate Modern in London

http://nora.embl-heidelberg.de/gallery/d/6765-2/167_Tate_Modern_and_the_Millenium_Bridge.jpg

http://marksquires.com/Images_Photos/tatemodern.jpg

They even built a really neat bridge to go right to it. The Millenium Bridge.

http://nora.embl-heidelberg.de/gallery/d/6783-2/178_Tate_Modern_and_Millenium_Bridge.jpg



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: waterboy on November 15, 2007, 03:23:12 pm
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

From the renderings of the stadium I have seen, and looking at the sightlines, you will not be able to see either the river or downtown from inside the stadium unless you are perhaps on the top rows.



As for the power plant and the refineries. I dont know why so many locals think they are ugly. I think they look really neat. I have visitors from out of town, when driving along riverside at night go, "Wow, whats all that? Thats neat."  In cities like London and Paris, and many others, they have power plants by their rivers and have even turned some of them into museums. Some new buildings like one in Paris, they actually put all the pipes and "guts" of the building on the outside to purposely make it look industrial.

You can choose to decide its ugly and unattractive, or cool and beatuiful. Guess it depends on your attitudes and how you want to go through life seeing things. Each person can of course have their own ideas of what is beautiful but it irks me when people make narrow minded, negative statements that just assume everyone thinks the same. It feels kind of rude or even mean to those of us who do find beauty in those things.  

The beautiful Centre Pompidou in Paris

 http://www.centrepompidou.fr/img/pano2.jpg

http://people.csail.mit.edu/harr/Paris/pompidoumodernartmuseum.jpg


The wonderful Tate Modern in London

http://nora.embl-heidelberg.de/gallery/d/6765-2/167_Tate_Modern_and_the_Millenium_Bridge.jpg

http://marksquires.com/Images_Photos/tatemodern.jpg

They even built a really neat bridge to go right to it. The Millenium Bridge.

http://nora.embl-heidelberg.de/gallery/d/6783-2/178_Tate_Modern_and_Millenium_Bridge.jpg





I agree Artist. Many people from out of town are actually impressed with the look of the refineries at night. And I think the power plant stacks would be cool if they made them look like a barber's pole or a candy cane, but that would require a sense of humor. Something we seem short of around here.

Did you see the Sand Springs neighborhood that complained about having a tornado siren on a pole in clear sight of the neighborhood?! All the utilities in the hood are buried and they didn't like the "ugly". I had to laugh. We are so hung up on conformity, that we can no longer appreciate anything different. Different=Ugly. Same=Beauty. Somewhere in life I failed to embrace that philosophy.



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: bacjz00 on November 15, 2007, 04:17:34 pm
I feel the need to respond...

I don't disagree that we should embrace our somewhat industrial heritage and that refineries and power plants CAN be done tastefully, but honestly...talking about what London and Paris HAVE versus what you'd like Tulsan's to ENVISION are two different ideas all together.  One is reality, the other is a state of mind.  

None of our power plants or refineries have been utilized any where close to the same fashion as what you've shown us.  It's not that I'm against power plants, but let's be honest. Are either of the PSO or Cogentrix plants going to be "wrapped" into the Jenks TIF development as something that needs to be made into a museum or happening industrial hangout spot?  No.  So what you're left with is smokestacks off yonder which simply look out of place next to a retail and recreation development.  I'm not saying it will or SHOULD kill the project, but to me, it's just not ideal.  Just an opinion.

For the record...I work downtown and I often work late at night.  My office overlooks the Arkansas River to the south and west and I LOVE the way the refineries and the lights look at night.  It can be intoxicating.   To me it reflects human progress and economic success in addition to the fact that it just looks neat.  BUT (there's always a but)...it doesn't mean I'd choose to live and play right next door to one.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on November 16, 2007, 08:13:33 am
quote:
Originally posted by bacjz00

I feel the need to respond...

I don't disagree that we should embrace our somewhat industrial heritage and that refineries and power plants CAN be done tastefully, but honestly...talking about what London and Paris HAVE versus what you'd like Tulsan's to ENVISION are two different ideas all together.  One is reality, the other is a state of mind.  

None of our power plants or refineries have been utilized any where close to the same fashion as what you've shown us.  It's not that I'm against power plants, but let's be honest. Are either of the PSO or Cogentrix plants going to be "wrapped" into the Jenks TIF development as something that needs to be made into a museum or happening industrial hangout spot?  No.  So what you're left with is smokestacks off yonder which simply look out of place next to a retail and recreation development.  I'm not saying it will or SHOULD kill the project, but to me, it's just not ideal.  Just an opinion.

For the record...I work downtown and I often work late at night.  My office overlooks the Arkansas River to the south and west and I LOVE the way the refineries and the lights look at night.  It can be intoxicating.   To me it reflects human progress and economic success in addition to the fact that it just looks neat.  BUT (there's always a but)...it doesn't mean I'd choose to live and play right next door to one.



I want to apologize too, I reread my response and it was a bit harsh. I guess it was one of those things I had heard many times before so I wasnt just responding to what you said, but aaaall the others combined lol. You were just the lucky devil that got my pent up frustration on the subject lol.

Just something I will have to realize is the way it is. But though I have pointed out the existance of power plants and such that have been retrofitted. In many cities they have yet to be so. Sometimes the reason they save them is because the people are used to them and think of them as part of the city landscape, they are part of the area around them, a familiar landmark for a particular area. But that is often why they are saved when no longer in use. I suppose its just not something we are used to. We may find that years from now when there is development around that old power plant in Jenks that people will become "used" to it and even begin to consider it part of the landscape that should remain even when its use as a power station is not feasible.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on November 16, 2007, 10:56:36 am
When I lived at Center Plaza 20 years ago, I had a south view from the south tower (200 CP).  The view during the day of the refineries was not that pleasing, but with the lights at night, it was pretty cool to show off to friends.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 08:26:51 am
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071204_1_A1_hScho30735


"Jenks is Jenks because of the school system. . . ."


Is there really a demand for 850,000 sq. ft. of development? This would take years to develop and years to occupy. Meanwhile, the cash due the school system is put at enormous risk.
Is this the role of government? So much in our community has been built over the years without this scam financing it makes one wonder. Tulsa Hills is going to be a success if the people come from the east as there does not exist the necessary densities for sales on the west side. Build it and they will come? Risky at best.

Sharp and Mitchell remind me of Harold Hill. What if their scheme unravels? It would seem to me the children lose in that case.



The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Chicken Little on December 04, 2007, 08:57:36 am
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071204_1_A1_hScho30735


"Jenks is Jenks because of the school system. . . ."


Is there really a demand for 850,000 sq. ft. of development? This would take years to develop and years to occupy. Meanwhile, the cash due the school system is put at enormous risk.
Is this the role of government? So much in our community has been built over the years without this scam financing it makes one wonder. Tulsa Hills is going to be a success if the people come from the east as there does not exist the necessary densities for sales on the west side. Build it and they will come? Risky at best.

Sharp and Mitchell remind me of Harold Hill. What if their scheme unravels? It would seem to me the children lose in that case.


The piece that the school district seems to be overlooking is that, without the TIF, the land will remain undeveloped.  Without the TIF, Jenks will earn 100% of the growth in property taxes in this area...unfortunately that growth will be close to zero.

So, the offer is $7.5 million.  Sure, it may not be as much as they want, but it is better than the alternative, which is nothing.  I'm skeptical of the $13.2 million impact estimate.  How is this commercial development likely to harm, directly, the school system?  Even if the "urban village" thing includes lots of housing, aren't those kinds of people going to be the same kinds that located in the new downtown Tulsa developments, i.e., empty nesters and young singles?

The problems that JPS is having with funding and growth are due to the explosive sprawl of the suburbs.  It's a global issue for them and should be dealt with city-wide.  It really is unfair to try and "solve" the problem by squeezing somebody who really isn't proposing to contribute to the problem in a big way.  Especially when, the nature of the development is more efficient for Jenks and the school system in the long run.

On the other hand, when they say "The time is ripe to upstage Tulsa," I get a little miffed.  That's not very neighborly.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 09:04:10 am
The land will not go undeveloped if there is demand, financing and a capable person to pull it all together. If it's such a great location then the process will happen on it's own merits.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: cannon_fodder on December 04, 2007, 09:24:08 am
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken LittleThe piece that the school district seems to be overlooking is that, without the TIF, the land will remain undeveloped.  Without the TIF, Jenks will earn 100% of the growth in property taxes in this area...unfortunately that growth will be close to zero.



+1


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: BKDotCom on December 04, 2007, 10:00:44 am
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

The land will not go undeveloped if there is demand, financing and a capable person to pull it all together. If it's such a great location then the process will happen on it's own merits.
The location is good "location" wise... it is sorta cut off from the rest of the river development by the turnpike though...

What makes it unattractive to developers is is that it's in a flood plain.   A lot of earth work required.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on December 04, 2007, 10:38:05 am
850K sq. ft. of retail space.  That's a lot.  Especially w/ Tulsa Hills going up to the north of Jenks.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 12:09:40 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

850K sq. ft. of retail space.  That's a lot.  Especially w/ Tulsa Hills going up to the north of Jenks.



The way I read the article, there seems to be 850,000 sq. ft. of mixed use. In any case, if it is in the flood plain then the Corps of Engineers might help with the dirt movement. If not, was Lynn Mitchell aware of all the infrastructure expense prior to purchasing the land? If so, he's set Jenks up. If not, he's not a worthy developer in the first place.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Chicken Little on December 04, 2007, 12:23:24 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

The land will not go undeveloped if there is demand, financing and a capable person to pull it all together. If it's such a great location then the process will happen on it's own merits.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

Maybe, but that's an esoteric argument when: a) It hasn't developed on it's own in, well, forever, and b) there are willing people out there right now who recognize the demand, have financing, and are capable of putting together a pretty good idea.

These guys are saying that it won't work "on it's own merits".  That, essentially, there is a gap.  Whether JPS chooses to believe them or not is one thing.

But, weighing this out, JPS is getting a guarantee of $7.5 million up front vs. the possibility (not a guarantee) of a big return that is likely to be years away.  And again, accepting the bird in hand or going into the bushes is JPS's call.  I have opinions, but whatever.

My only real beef is that I just can't see how this development will hurt the schools.  It likely won't house that many school kids, in my opinion.  Therefore, I think the $7.5 million that has been offered will more than offset the development's impact on the school system.  JPS, by asking for more, may be using it's position to extort money from an investor that, ironically, is offering a more efficient kind of development.  What I mean is, if everyone in Jenks built as compactly as these guys are proposing, then you'd have a pretty efficient town, and a pretty efficient school system.  So, they seem to be demanding that this mixed-use developer subsidize their sprawling, inefficient, lifestyle.  Is this sounding like a familiar refrain?


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Vision 2025 on December 04, 2007, 12:33:08 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

850K sq. ft. of retail space.  That's a lot.  Especially w/ Tulsa Hills going up to the north of Jenks.



The way I read the article, there seems to be 850,000 sq. ft. of mixed use. In any case, if it is in the flood plain then the Corps of Engineers might help with the dirt movement. If not, was Lynn Mitchell aware of all the infrastructure expense prior to purchasing the land? If so, he's set Jenks up. If not, he's not a worthy developer in the first place.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell



The CORPS cannot participate in a flood plain mitigation project unless the project removes significant existing property from that flood plain.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 12:40:41 pm
Whatever the case may be, I am not a fan of welfare. Especially when it supercedes the public education of our future generations.

I will add that the cost is in the risk of this development if it does indeed fail. That is when the piper needs to be paid. That is when the school district funding has to kick in and at a higher level than originally mapped out. I am not certain about this but would think that's a potentially big problem.

Just because a promoter says it will happen does not make his statement true. Also, lots of real estate has been rendered lousy because of cutting corners during construction or because the banks were too loose with their financing terms and conditions in the first place.



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Chicken Little on December 04, 2007, 01:08:30 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

Whatever the case may be, I am not a fan of welfare. Especially when it supercedes the public education of our future generations.

I'm not a fan of welfare either.  The whole problem with TIFs is that it expects taxing bodies to behave like investors.  That's generally not within their purview.  In fact, you could argue that speculating in real estate, which is precisely what this is, violates their fiduciary duty to the citizenry.

To me, the TIF looks like a pretty good investment.  But I can certainly see how a  school district wouldn't evaluate it the same way.  

Regardless, that still doesn't let JPS off the hook if they are overcharging these guys.  The school should be able to look at this development and assess, accurately, what kind of impact it will have over time.

This $13.2 million was an impact caluclation derived from what was paid by Tulsa Hills.  That has to be bogus.  Tulsa Hills will put exactly zero children into JPS.  Where's the impact?  LaFortune The developer (my bad) gave them a little sumpin'-sumpin' in order to grease the wheels and get on with construction.  Calling it an impact fee doesn't make it one.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 01:43:12 pm
^Yeppers. I'm still wondering if Tulsa Hills will support the original pro forma spreadsheets. It should if TH comes in on budget. Heard they moved 950,000 yards of dirt.
That's the biggest in Tulsa history. They have some credit worthy leases all over there. Which makes me wonder who is left to go in Jenks that is credit worthy. Nordstroms is not a likely lead tenant. Their credit is thin. In order to land them, you have to give them the land and a bundle of cash. At TH and every other new location, I think Target as anchor just gets their land free in order to attract the other tenants.

I think Big Disappointment Bill II supported Tulsa Hills to win Darla Hall over.

Didn't work....

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on December 04, 2007, 02:05:22 pm
Sooner or later, Tulsa and NE Oklahoma are going to experience another economic slow-down.  If you can believe the article in the World this morning, it's going to be sooner.  I'm concerned about a glut of under-leased new retail property that's going to tank property values on the commercial real estate market.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 02:34:16 pm
So true....

These problems implode once the trend begins.

Many people on these threads have nice vision (I hate using that term) and wonderful ideas, but have not lived long enough to witness what happens when credit dries up. It's mean, nasty and ugly. Hopefully, it will not resemble the 80's.

Recall the term "red lined"?


The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on December 04, 2007, 02:41:59 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

^Yeppers. I'm still wondering if Tulsa Hills will support the original pro forma spreadsheets. It should if TH comes in on budget. Heard they moved 950,000 yards of dirt.
That's the biggest in Tulsa history. They have some credit worthy leases all over there. Which makes me wonder who is left to go in Jenks that is credit worthy. Nordstroms is not a likely lead tenant. Their credit is thin. In order to land them, you have to give them the land and a bundle of cash. At TH and every other new location, I think Target as anchor just gets their land free in order to attract the other tenants.

I think Big Disappointment Bill II supported Tulsa Hills to win Darla Hall over.

Didn't work....

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell





We get it AOX, FOTD, whatever, all developments that have not asked you for personal advice are stupid.

The developer of the river district is not asking the city or schools to take on any indebtedness, if anything is to built using financing, the developers will be guaranteeing the loan, not the governmental entities.

I have no idea if Nordstrom’s is being looked at as a lead retailer, but the statement that Nordstrom’s credit is thin is a pretty thin statement itself

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=JWN

``Despite a tough operating environment and a series of unfortunate events, including bad weather and fires in California, the company performed beautifully,'' Patricia Edwards, a Seattle-based money manager at Wentworth Hauser & Violich, said today. The firm holds Nordstrom shares among the $13.4 billion in assets it manages.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGnQT6XOkNng&refer=home


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 03:02:20 pm
Hmmm....

Nordstrom's has been floated. And they typically locate in much more densely populated areas.

I'd like to know what else is being pandered for the good of Jenks.

JPS is being called on to securitize this transaction. Have you even looked at the consequences if this deal were to go bad?

Personal guarantees are only good up to a point.
And, who wants to be asked about the minutia of some real estate deal?
Shouldn't one be more concerned about the deep unknown future of our public schools? Even the home school parents and the private school parents should be aware.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: spoonbill on December 04, 2007, 03:09:46 pm
My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 03:31:52 pm
quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.



That's great. Then the developer should be able to do this transaction on it's own merits without welfare.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on December 04, 2007, 03:34:10 pm
Okay, I don't agree with a whole lot FOTD proffers on here, but if borrowed funding sources were to dry up mid-project, that area is going to be hosed for another 10 years.  Or let's say it gets finished and some stores renege on their agreements due to the business climate either here or elsewhere in their operations.  Basically what happened to Eastland Shopping Mall about 1972 or so.  

One difference in those two projects is sprawl didn't make it as far or fast as predicted with Eastland.  It is happening w/ Jenks and will continue to happen, so long as we don't have a two or three year fart in the economy which slows things down out south.

I'm not poo-pooing, just saying there's some caution being thrown to the wind here.  I hope the project goes well, our economic boom continues, and this is a nice focal point for Jenks along the riverbanks.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on December 04, 2007, 03:46:02 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

JPS is being called on to securitize this transaction. Have you even looked at the consequences if this deal were to go bad?


I have read the proposal and the law regarding the creation of a TIF. Have you?

Show me where JPS is being asked to “Securitize” this transaction. That is simply not true. They are forgoing most of 18 years of property taxes on a mostly retail complex. That does not mean they are the loan guarantor.





Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 03:47:06 pm
Poo Pooing? What's that? And, thrown to the wind?

Smells like Jenks to me....

Can't believe everything you read....



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: spoonbill on December 04, 2007, 03:50:14 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.



That's great. Then the developer should be able to do this transaction on it's own merits without welfare.



Hmm!  Don't get it?  

Lets examine the difference between a TIF and Welfare.

A TIF is simply a structured reinvestment of tax money used to finance a project that is anticipated to generate a surplus of taxable revenue to the area. Granting a TIF on a project usually ensures increased interest in the project by retailers because it promises continued infrastructure support and promotion by the city.

WELFARE is money given to an individual to finance the purchase of cigarettes, crack, Quarter Pounders, and diapers.  Granting WELFARE ensures the continued unemployment of the individual and promises another generation of idiots.

See, there's a big difference!


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 03:51:54 pm
quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

JPS is being called on to securitize this transaction. Have you even looked at the consequences if this deal were to go bad?


I have read the proposal and the law regarding the creation of a TIF. Have you?

Show me where JPS is being asked to “Securitize” this transaction. That is simply not true. They are forgoing most of 18 years of property taxes on a mostly retail complex. That does not mean they are the loan guarantor.







You are correct when using the term for financing purposes. I meant it helps to dress up their financial statements....


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 03:56:39 pm
quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.



That's great. Then the developer should be able to do this transaction on it's own merits without welfare.



Hmm!  Don't get it?  

Lets examine the difference between a TIF and Welfare.

A TIF is simply a structured reinvestment of tax money used to finance a project that is anticipated to generate a surplus of taxable revenue to the area. Granting a TIF on a project usually ensures increased interest in the project by retailers because it promises continued infrastructure support and promotion by the city.

WELFARE is money given to an individual to finance the purchase of cigarettes, crack, Quarter Pounders, and diapers.  Granting WELFARE ensures the continued unemployment of the individual and promises another generation of idiots.

See, there's a big difference!



Welfare= government assistance because of hardship....seems to fit.

I could be wrong....in doubt.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: spoonbill on December 04, 2007, 04:16:53 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.



That's great. Then the developer should be able to do this transaction on it's own merits without welfare.



Hmm!  Don't get it?  

Lets examine the difference between a TIF and Welfare.

A TIF is simply a structured reinvestment of tax money used to finance a project that is anticipated to generate a surplus of taxable revenue to the area. Granting a TIF on a project usually ensures increased interest in the project by retailers because it promises continued infrastructure support and promotion by the city.

WELFARE is money given to an individual to finance the purchase of cigarettes, crack, Quarter Pounders, and diapers.  Granting WELFARE ensures the continued unemployment of the individual and promises another generation of idiots.

See, there's a big difference!



Welfare= government assistance because of hardship....seems to fit.

I could be wrong....in doubt.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell



I understand your point but don't agree with your view.  

We simply see the role of government differently (probably on most issues).

In my view, money is generated by businesses and individuals engaging in business.  The government taxes these entities to support infrastructure and a host of other items that the people (of Jenks and/or Oklahoma) voted necessary to the continued prosperity of their community.  

In the example of a TIF, the government is simply agreeing to use the money it receives from an established geographic area (in this case the immediate development and small benefitting area) to provide financial support in the form of an investment in the project with an agreed upon expiration date.  This investment is earmarked mostly for necessary infrastructure improvements such as roads, sewer, power, water and detention for the project.

If I understand your view of government, you see it as more of a parent figure.  Dealing equality and providing support to the masses.  You view a TIF as a gift or a bribe to a developer, kind of like paying a prostitute.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 04:48:08 pm
Spoon.... your icon pic is Karl Marx? Right?


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: spoonbill on December 04, 2007, 04:54:20 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

Spoon.... your icon pic is Karl Marx? Right?



Calm down.  Not everyone with a beard is Karl Marx.  

Don't make fun of my Christmas card picture!

I have my mother's eyes.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 04:56:27 pm
^Hillarious!(not to be confused with Hillary.)


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on December 04, 2007, 06:01:59 pm
There are several things I like about this large development versus say, allowing many small developers to slowly fill in the area.

1.  Any really large development of this kind is likely to ask for some sort of TIF. So if we dont want a large development of this sort, we are going to say that property should be developed by lots of small developers. The city will then be liable for a lot of infrastructure versus the large developer doing it.

2. The small developments will not have the density this large one will. They are not going to do living surrounding a large parking garage. Not likely to put in midrise office and condo buildings there. Not likely to have the nice, organized street/town square plan. Not at all as likely to have as nice building designs, and buildings that compliment eachother, extra landscaping, parks, fountains, etc. that will make the area more than just another shopping area.  Without a large, planned development, you will likely end up with something like what you see on the Tulsa side of the river, the Kohls, Neighborhood Market typical bland suburban shopping or the Tulsa Hills type thing. Not a higher density, destination and attraction.

3. It will raise more taxes because it will be built sooner than the alternative of gradually filling up the area with numerous small things over... who knows how long a time. A higher density, mixed use, large project like this will in the long term be more beneficial to the area than lots of small, strip mall type developments.  It will raise more taxes because of its density. It will raise more taxes because it is an attraction and destination, not just another shopping area.

4. Because of its layout and mixed use density it will be more liveable and sustainable. A large development like this can spend more money on quality of design, its coordination, layout, amenities, extras that any good city would want. Think of the money Jenks has put into its main street beautification projects, parks, etc. This will do all of that right up front. Many small developments over time, like on the Tulsa side of the river will not build anything as nice as this development will be and the amenities it will have. This will basically a new downtown for Jenks. I will be THE downtown for Jenks imo. It should be done right with attention to details and such, much like what Tulsa is trying to do and spending millions on to do to get its downtown in order and looking nice. Or... it can be just another bunch of ratty strip malls or perhaps a small nice development along the river and years and years of other small develoments behind that slowly filling up the space.

5. It will take years for that area to fill up without this development so the difference in time that Jenks will start getting tax dollars from it wont be that much. 18 years till they get the 12mill a year this way. Who knows how many years it would take for that area to find developers, get their plans going and approved, built,and fill up with smaller developments. Its not as though they will even be getting the amount the developer IS offering during their  build time. And even then, in the end it may not be as dense or as much of an attraction and money maker as it would have been if they had let this large development go through.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Conan71 on December 04, 2007, 06:35:21 pm
Aside from my minor bits of caution in re: retail density in Tulsa Co. and possible economic slowdowns, Artist, I agree.

One area I think JPS has been a little short-sighted on is that a development like this will undoubtedly begat more single-family housing development on both sides of the river which is going to be higher ticket homes, not cheap tract housing.  SFAIK, the TIF is limited to this particular tract and not any extensive outlying developments.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Rico on December 04, 2007, 06:41:42 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Vision 2025

quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

850K sq. ft. of retail space.  That's a lot.  Especially w/ Tulsa Hills going up to the north of Jenks.



The way I read the article, there seems to be 850,000 sq. ft. of mixed use. In any case, if it is in the flood plain then the Corps of Engineers might help with the dirt movement. If not, was Lynn Mitchell aware of all the infrastructure expense prior to purchasing the land? If so, he's set Jenks up. If not, he's not a worthy developer in the first place.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell



The CORPS cannot participate in a flood plain mitigation project unless the project removes significant existing property from that flood plain.



Mister Crowe... If I am understanding your statement correctly...?
The only way the "Corps of Engineers" can become involved.... is..... if the project's purpose is the removal of structures or buildings so on and so forth from the flood plain...?

I know what I got from your statement is more than likely inaccurate....... Can you please clarify.?


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 04, 2007, 08:09:04 pm
Artist.....one of "the father's of Tulsa Real Estate" once told me...."big companies make big mistakes".


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on December 04, 2007, 10:25:02 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

Artist.....one of "the father's of Tulsa Real Estate" once told me...."big companies make big mistakes".



?   What are you talking about?

You saying, All big companies always make big mistakes? This development would be bad because its done by a big company? You sayingm tif or no, this is a bad development?


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: spoonbill on December 05, 2007, 07:37:37 am
Wow!  Talk about momentum.  Just saw the deal going in across the street (Elm).  Around 200k sq.ft. of high-end office/retail.  Very Utica Square like, but with stone and brick buildings.  Lots of fountains and open cobblestone space.  

Most of the structures will be retail below and office above 2 story brick and stone.  Kind of a loft office look.  I'll see if I can get ahold of some elevation sketches.

Privately funded project.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 05, 2007, 08:37:43 am
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

Artist.....one of "the father's of Tulsa Real Estate" once told me...."big companies make big mistakes".



?   What are you talking about?

You saying, All big companies always make big mistakes? This development would be bad because its done by a big company? You sayingm tif or no, this is a bad development?



where in my words did it say "all"?
Big companies make big mistakes and their timing too often is not good....Again, welfare for the wealthy makes no sense to me. Putting public school funding at any risk for a small return is not logical. And now, we have Glenpool adding even more retail at 151st and 75.....there are only so many discounters that can come to discount city (or River City).


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on December 05, 2007, 09:03:55 am
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

Artist.....one of "the father's of Tulsa Real Estate" once told me...."big companies make big mistakes".



?   What are you talking about?

You saying, All big companies always make big mistakes? This development would be bad because its done by a big company? You sayingm tif or no, this is a bad development?



where in my words did it say "all"?
Big companies make big mistakes and their timing too often is not good....Again, welfare for the wealthy makes no sense to me. Putting public school funding at any risk for a small return is not logical. And now, we have Glenpool adding even more retail at 151st and 75.....there are only so many discounters that can come to discount city (or River City).



Well why mention it? Its obvious both large and small companies can make mistakes and of course big companies can make big mistakes. Its like coming on here and saying the sky is blue. No duh!

Jenks school funding at risk?  They will, more likely, get more money with this development than a "theoretical" bunch of small ones. Your taking a risk either way and I see that this is less of a "risk".


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 05, 2007, 11:50:11 am
JPS will get more money if the project works. What is the cost to JPS if the project fails?


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on December 05, 2007, 11:52:48 am
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

JPS will get more money if the project works. What is the cost to JPS if the project fails?



Why don't you detail it for us? If the project fails and the developer defaults and the project is not completed what IS the impact to JPS, and please be specific.



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 05, 2007, 12:25:59 pm
I don't know. That's why I asked....


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on December 05, 2007, 12:56:48 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

I don't know. That's why I asked....



If the project fails the cost to JPS is nothing, if it goes through there will be an incremental cost to educate the any children that live in the complex, thus the payment to JPS from the project.

If the project fails the property taxes remain at nearly nothing. If the project succeeds, then JPS will benefit directly from the project, the argument today is over how much.

JPS will also benefit indirectly by the project succeeding due to an related increase nearby property values, both commerical and residential.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 05, 2007, 01:08:24 pm
If the project fails, there will be an opportunity cost. Also, East Central never benefited from Eastland Mall. And the area around the mall turned ugly. Property values in that portion of town have been stagnant for over 35 years.

Recognize it or not there is risk.

Why does JPS oppose this structure if it's such a win win scenario?



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on December 05, 2007, 01:43:37 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

If the project fails, there will be an opportunity cost. Also, East Central never benefited from Eastland Mall. And the area around the mall turned ugly. Property values in that portion of town have been stagnant for over 35 years.

Recognize it or not there is risk.

Why does JPS oppose this structure if it's such a win win scenario?





The JPS board doesn’t oppose the project. But, JPS is the entity that is giving up most potential tax revenue and want more to remain with JPS.  I don’t blame them for that, but it doesn’t make them in the right.

And, Eastland Mall was not a TIF to my knowledge and I think you have it backwards.  The low income and not growing area around the mall hurt the mall. It was east Tulsa that made Eastland Mall not viable, not the other way around.

Lastly, as for opportunity cost. This site is not a normally viable commercial site, it’s in the floodplain, and may actually be in the floodway. A LOT of the cost is site work, a new lake is going to be built to fix the site.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: spoonbill on December 05, 2007, 01:45:47 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD

If the project fails, there will be an opportunity cost. Also, East Central never benefited from Eastland Mall. And the area around the mall turned ugly. Property values in that portion of town have been stagnant for over 35 years.

Recognize it or not there is risk.

Why does JPS oppose this structure if it's such a win win scenario?





Good point!  But the motivation behind the granting of a TIF for Eastland was to revitalize an area and attempt to steer growth to the east rather than the South.  It was really a stupid idea.  The development was totally dependent on attempts to change the natural growth pattern of a city.  It was arrogant and, I will say again, STUPID.

The Jenks project is taking advantage of an existing and increasing growth trend and there is huge amounts of positive demographic data to support it's success.  

There is always risk.  The idea is to find the deal with the highest return and lowest risk.  I would have to say that in 20 years of development, this is one of the least risky development projects I've seen.  

Wish I'd thought of it first, wish I had a stake in it.

I know what your going to say, and I'm all ready for the gambling analogy, so let her rip.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on December 05, 2007, 02:01:39 pm
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD


Why does JPS oppose this structure if it's such a win win scenario?




I’m personally not very fond of the current JPS school board. There was a “spirited” election last year for the board where the award winning president of the board lost and I don’t know that the right person won.  The board certainly is making some really questionable decisions lately.

Even worse than the issue with the River District is that the The JPS Board has refused to hire enough teachers, they actually have empty classrooms at Jenks West Elementary and Intermediate (where they claim they are having such problems with all the students from the not yet open Tulsa Hills) and are paying fines to the state for class size. In past years the board just approved the hiring of new contract teachers at the start of each year to fix class sizes, but not this year. They are spending money on fines instead of teachers. They also have instituted a policy where even gifted children are not allowed to receive class work that is beyond their grade level.  They instead receive “enhanced” learning at the same grade level as all other students. I’m sure there are other issues, but these are the ones that impact my kids and their schools.

These issues and the River District solidify to me the need for change on the JPS board. There are a lot of very mad parents and teachers over what is going on with the gifted program and class sizes and everyone I know in Jenks wants the River District to work. I don’t know who the JPS board is serving, but it’s not their constituents. People in Jenks are very proud of the school systems and want is badly to be the very best, but right now people are mad and getting worse with the decisions of the JPS board.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on December 05, 2007, 03:29:23 pm
Thanks for the information. I see where you are coming from and know you know what you are talking about.....we'll just disagree on our method and degree of government intervention.

How big are these fines and do they result from 1031?  How many more teaches does Jenks need? What’s the average class size as exists and what level is the goal?

Jenks has always been known for superior public schools in Oklahoma. Are there other reasons as well for the decline? Will the board serve as scapegoat and new people voted in to solve the problem? How?? It doesn't seem to me this situation with River City development helps this. If anything, it may make it tougher to solve the problem by cutting cash flow.

I get the impression our politicians here would rather see no public schools than making it a continued function of the government. Especially  when they sanction and prioritize intervention in areas not affected by blight with TIFF financing over the public's welfare in education.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on December 05, 2007, 08:19:15 pm
The River District in no way cuts the cash flow, it increases it.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on December 18, 2007, 08:40:34 am
The Jenks city council unanimously approves the River District TIF. Jenks Public Schools now supports the plan, they will get $7.5 million from the developers and another $5.7 million from the city of Jenks. Lynn Mitchell says construction will start in March on the billion dollar project.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071218_1_A19_hAfte02577


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Rico on December 20, 2007, 07:12:59 pm
Aye swami swake.....

Is it possible that a "suburb" can tax it's way into becoming a "metropolis"....?

if so.... what will happen to all those people that moved to Jenks to be away from the noise and traffic of the City..?[}:)]


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on January 04, 2008, 12:24:46 pm
Yeppers.... a double post.

Restructuring experts see tough ’08 for retailers
January 4, 2008
WASHINGTON (AP) – Bankruptcy and restructuring professionals are expecting a New Year’s gift from the retailing industry: more business.
Retailers are expected to have a hard time luring shoppers struggling with higher mortgage payments, fuel costs and dwindling confidence in the U.S. economy in 2008. Experts say companies competing for a slice of the diminished consumer-spending pie will find it difficult to avoid trouble if they’re already carrying a heavy debt load.
Although only a small percentage of Americans have adjustable-rate mortgages scheduled to reset to higher rates next year, the home-foreclosure crisis has frightened consumers that do have the extra cash to spend. As a result, bankruptcy and restructuring experts believe Americans will grow more tightfisted in 2008.
“Not only do you have people with less money, but you have a sector of the population who thinks they may have less money in the future,” said Richard A. Chesley, a partner at the Paul Hastings law firm.
Consumer confidence has been shaken over the last few months. The Conference Board’s index of consumer confidence rose slightly in December, but Americans remained uneasy about the economy, said Lynn Franco, director of the board’s consumer research center. Consumers’ claiming conditions are “good” decreased to 20.3 percent from 22.5 percent. Those saying conditions are “bad” increased to 20 percent from 18.9 percent.
“Uncertainty in the job market, people worrying about paying heating bills, mortgages and relative gloom over the economy is really fueling the drop in consumer confidence and until we get out of that, the retail sector will be hurt,” Chesley said.
Experts say specialty retailers could be especially hard-hit if 2008 turns into a difficult year for U.S. consumers. Chesley said that when the economy hits a bump and discretionary spending and consumer confidence drop, specialty retailers that cater to a subset of consumers are subject to the greatest bankruptcy risk.
Several specialty retailers suffered financial setbacks in 2007. Competition from electronic retailing rivals caused CompUSA Inc. to close its stores and Tweeter Home Entertainment Group Inc. to seek Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Home-furnishings retailers Bombay Co. and Levitz Furniture Inc. also filed for bankruptcy last year.
William K. Snyder, managing partner at turnaround firm CRG Partners, said the trend is likely to continue well into 2008, with bankruptcy filings or out-of-court liquidations particularly prevalent in the home furnishings, accessories and improvement sectors.
Pier One Imports, World Market and other stores that had competed with Bombay are on his watch list, Snyder said, as well the home accessories departments of Home Depot Inc. and Lowe’s .
These stores depend on what Snyder calls a “change in lifestyle.” Buying and decorating a new home fall under that category, but consumers have all but abandoned the real-estate market.
Chesley said struggling homeowners aren’t the only ones who have less money to spend at retail stores. As home sales in the United States slow and fewer homes are built, the discretionary spending of those who work in the real estate and homebuilding industries will also fall.
A number of homebuilders filed for bankruptcy in 2007, including Neumann Homes Inc., one of Chicago’s largest residential builders, California home builder Dunmore Homes Inc. and Levitt Corp.’s Levitt and Sons LLC.
“People who are having difficulties making payments on their homes are obviously taken out largely from the discretionary spending pool,” Chesley said. “On the other side of that same equation, as less homes are being built, everybody that is associated with that industry has less discretionary income to spend.”
Peter J. Antoszyk, a partner at law firm Proskauer Rose, said restructuring professionals are already starting to get calls from retailers. Most retailers, however, are likely to pick up the phone for restructuring services after the holiday season is over and they’ve had a chance to take stock of how they did during the Christmas shopping frenzy, he said. So far, holiday retail sales have fallen short of industry expectations.
Chesley said retailers can expect to face a difficult time throughout 2008.
The number of adjustable-rate mortgages slated to reset will peak early next year, but the repercussions – rising foreclosures and diminished consumer spending – will be felt during the months that follow.
“Retailers will have to weather what looks to be a long-term turbulence,” Chesley said. “I think we have to see this housing crisis ride out before retailers can get the pressure lifted.”
Copyright © 2008 The Journal Record All Rights Reserved
101 N. Robinson Ave., Ste. 101, Oklahoma City, OK, 73102 |
P.O. Box 26370, Oklahoma City, OK, 73126-0370 | (405) 235-3100
415 S. Boston Ave., Ste. 101, Tulsa, OK 74103 | (918) 295-0098


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on January 04, 2008, 06:24:43 pm
To put the "above said" into the context of this thread... I have worried that the River District gets started, but then doesn't get built as planned because the troubles in the rest of the economy spook the developers, banks, stores, restaurants, etc. from the project.

However. With all the doom and gloom in other parts of the country this development and other things going on in the Tulsa area could be a great promo opportunity for us. We could be a shining glimmer of growth and good times that gets peoples attention, and thus draws more people and businesses to the area. Rather than letting the bad times in other places draw us down too. If we play our cards right we could use their troubles to make us look all the more attractive as a city. We could actually push through this on a positive note and not be drawn down with it.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: safetyguy on January 04, 2008, 09:30:27 pm
This may be somewhat of a thread jack, but oh well here it goes.

I received the latest version of the Jenks Express free magazine today (PDF version not available online yet or I would have included it). They had an article on the River District. The last paragraph caught my eye. It talked about the developers of the River district meeting with the Gov. Henry and other governmental officials about the traffic flow in and out. It mentions adding additional ramps on Lewis Avenue to help facilitate traffic flow. How is that possible??? I can't envision it. Can someone enlighten me. Is it a screw up in the article?


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on January 04, 2008, 10:10:14 pm
Is it a screw up in the article? No! It's called corporate welfare....


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: safetyguy on January 04, 2008, 10:13:41 pm
I understand the welfare part of it, but it makes no sense to me on how Lewis Ave. is supposed to connect in with the development...

Maybe there's a Lewis Avenue in Jenks for all I know...


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: RecycleMichael on January 04, 2008, 10:29:15 pm
S. Lewis Avenue in Jenks is south of the Aquarium. If you take Aquarium drive south it leads to 101st street. The first left is a road named S. Lewis. It ducks under the turnpike road.

It would be the main northern entrance to this new devlopment.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: safetyguy on January 04, 2008, 10:54:30 pm
Thanks Michael. That makes more sense. I just had Lewis Ave. in Tulsa in my head the whole time.



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on January 05, 2008, 08:21:21 am
quote:
Originally posted by safetyguy

Thanks Michael. That makes more sense. I just had Lewis Ave. in Tulsa in my head the whole time.





It's the same Lewis Ave, just on the south side of the river. And Elm St in Jenks is Peoria. The River District is going to be between Peoria and Lewis south of 101st St.





Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on January 13, 2008, 07:07:49 pm
Here's a photo of the model of the River District design and an article with some updates. The article is on page five of the PDF.

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/shake2005/untitled-1.jpg)

http://www.jenksexpress.com/pdfs/2008_01_JE.pdf


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on January 13, 2008, 10:34:42 pm
Wowsers. That will be impressive if it really gets built.

I got a laugh out of Jenks new slogan on that website. Jenks...Everythings going our way. [:P]

Perhaps the new "Turnpike, City Rivalry" should be between OKC and Jenks. It would be a little more fair and balanced that way.

 Look out OKC, Jenks is gaining on ya. [:D]




Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on January 18, 2008, 10:49:32 pm
Color me paranoid, but this kind of thing has happened in Tulsa before so... Been reading some articles that are saying the credit crunch and home mortgage crisis is starting to spill over into commercial projects. Some billion dollar projects already underway have been stopped dead in their tracks. Some developers are starting to struggle to get financing to finish their projects. I really hope this trend doesnt get worse because it will put pressure on any Tulsa projects, not just the River District and the Riverwalk but anything we were hoping to get in downtown or by the river in Tulsa.

Article in the Wall Street Journal that gives some examples of what I am starting to see in other places. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120054012983095939.html



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: FOTD on January 19, 2008, 08:30:15 am
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

Color me paranoid, but this kind of thing has happened in Tulsa before so... Been reading some articles that are saying the credit crunch and home mortgage crisis is starting to spill over into commercial projects. Some billion dollar projects already underway have been stopped dead in their tracks. Some developers are starting to struggle to get financing to finish their projects. I really hope this trend doesnt get worse because it will put pressure on any Tulsa projects, not just the River District and the Riverwalk but anything we were hoping to get in downtown or by the river in Tulsa.

Article in the Wall Street Journal that gives some examples of what I am starting to see in other places. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120054012983095939.html





Government welfare for the rich does not always work.....what I've said here before.....over and over. Grab from the poor and those that can least afford it and give it to the rich.....


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: swake on March 24, 2008, 09:21:13 am
I was driving yesterday on the Creek Turnpike in Jenks and The River District site now has survey flags all over it, the natural gas pipeline is fenced off and there is excavating equipment on the site. Looks like construction is starting this week, maybe today.



Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: TheArtist on March 24, 2008, 12:35:50 pm
Excellent. They say the groundwork will take approximately a year to do. So by this time next year we will begin to actually see buildings going up. Once they get going on the actual construction, it will probably be quite a sight.


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: perspicuity85 on March 25, 2008, 02:18:42 pm
I heard this is where Ruth's Chris Tulsa will be located.  Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: EricP on March 25, 2008, 02:48:47 pm
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85

I heard this is where Ruth's Chris Tulsa will be located.  Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?



Dammit, that steak place was in the hotel I stayed at in Chicago once... that name doesn't make any sense so I can never eat there! :)


Title: $294 Million TIF for the River District approved
Post by: Townsend on March 25, 2008, 03:10:15 pm
quote:
Originally posted by EricP

quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85

I heard this is where Ruth's Chris Tulsa will be located.  Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?



Dammit, that steak place was in the hotel I stayed at in Chicago once... that name doesn't make any sense so I can never eat there! :)



It's tasty chow.  I hope this helps EricP.


"Ruth's Chris Steak House owner Ruth Fertel admitted in an earlier interview, "I've always hated the name Ruth's Chris. It's kind of ridiculous, but once they get it, they don't forget it!"

Fertel purchased Chris Steak House from a man who had operated it for 35 years, and when she found out he opened it on her birthday, she kept the name for luck, later adding Ruth's to avoid any court battles."