The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I saw this truck yesterday on 169 as I drove home from work. Nice, big Ford truck with giant lettering on the back window - "WELCOME TO AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH". The vanity OK plate also said "SPK ENG".

For some reason, this really got me up in arms. I guess I can understand how the person may feel - maybe. Perhaps someone on here can enlighten me.

Before the discussion begins, let me tell you how I feel initially:

The message on the truck displays ignorance in that it doesn't say, "Learn English", just "speak english", as though every person on earth (or at least an immigrant) is born with a command of the english language and is just refusing to speak it.

The message on the truck is ethnocentric, in that it assumes english is the best or only language an American should speak. Ethnocentricity has it's roots not in patriotism, but in arrogance and cultural bias.

I could go on - but I'd rather hear feedback from you first. Am I missing something? Is this just based in fear (is the guy in the truck afraid those "ferners" are talking about him everytime they speak in their native tongue?) or is there some intelligence behind the message that I'm too dense to decipher?

If this has already been discussed, just lead me to that discussion, or ignore the post, please. (Search turned up nothing)

I agree Restore. He probably is afraid of other cultures.

I think we should yell pig latin at him.

opstay uoryay asistray aysway!

I'll stay neutral on the topic of the truck banner, but consider that English is almost a universal language.  

Every airline pilot who flies anyplace in the world is required to speak English when talking with the control tower.

English is spoken as a second language in many European countries, which has to do with business, tourism, ........

While the message on the truck sounds a little ignorant the way it is presented, it certainly is a good lesson for anyone who wishes to meld into America and succeed.

I'd like to give the owner of the truck a grammar test to see how well he speaks English. I bet his vocabulary hovers around 70 words.

When someone struggles with English I make it a point to reassure them "you're English is better than my [insert language here]."  Learning a second language is hard (for me anyway).  The advantages to speaking English here are greater than avoiding someone mocking you for your efforts, most people realize that.

That said, companies:  please hire people that speak English well.  Its frustrating trying to do business - even as a consumer when one party doesn't speak the dominant language.  It will hurt your business (unless you are a Mexican/Chinese/ethnic restaurant, then it adds credibility:).  If they interact with the public, English will help your business (this goes for you too Dell!).

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Originally posted by Wilbur

I'll stay neutral on the topic of the truck banner, but consider that English is almost a universal language.  

Every airline pilot who flies anyplace in the world is required to speak English when talking with the control tower.

English is spoken as a second language in many European countries, which has to do with business, tourism, ........

While the message on the truck sounds a little ignorant the way it is presented, it certainly is a good lesson for anyone who wishes to meld into America and succeed.

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Mandarin Chinese, Hindi, and Spanish are more widely spoken than English.  And French is still an international language of diplomacy and commerce, so I don't think that English is a superior language or anything.

But, I do agree with you completely that Americans need to share a common language, and it happens to be English.  The problem with this guy's truck decoration is that it's not worth freaking out about.  Language barriers disappear after a generation of simmering in our great melting pot.

It's worth considering that with the retirement of the baby boomers, this country will have 70 million jobs to fill.  Those jobs will get filled by people from all over the world, and teaching English will become very important in the next few decades.  I doubt a fleet of "Speak English" trucks will make a difference, considering one in six won't be able to read it anyway.

I'm sure this guy has the same mentality of one of my coworkers.  "I hate it when foreigners are walkin' around the mall jabberin' in their funny languages" as though it should matter what language they use when talking to each other.  I have yet to have a problem with a foreign person working anywhere that I didn't get the basic gist of what they're saying.  Yes, it's broken English, but in my experience there are very few (usually the crew on a construction project) who don't speak it well enough for me to understand.

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Originally posted by restored2x

I saw this truck yesterday on 169 as I drove home from work. Nice, big Ford truck with giant lettering on the back window - "WELCOME TO AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH". The vanity OK plate also said "SPK ENG".

For some reason, this really got me up in arms. I guess I can understand how the person may feel - maybe. Perhaps someone on here can enlighten me.

Before the discussion begins, let me tell you how I feel initially:

The message on the truck displays ignorance in that it doesn't say, "Learn English", just "speak english", as though every person on earth (or at least an immigrant) is born with a command of the english language and is just refusing to speak it.

The message on the truck is ethnocentric, in that it assumes english is the best or only language an American should speak. Ethnocentricity has it's roots not in patriotism, but in arrogance and cultural bias.

I could go on - but I'd rather hear feedback from you first. Am I missing something? Is this just based in fear (is the guy in the truck afraid those "ferners" are talking about him everytime they speak in their native tongue?) or is there some intelligence behind the message that I'm too dense to decipher?

If this has already been discussed, just lead me to that discussion, or ignore the post, please. (Search turned up nothing)

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Personally, I do believe we should speak English here in the US, and we should only sparingly accomodate those who cannot or will not learn the language-if that. English is the official language here, so learn it, ya know?

This post really tickled me. I'm at a coffee shop so I'll get some opinions of other people near me...

Guy #1 sitting next to me:

"The guy's a crusty ol' asswipe and has got nothing better to do than drive around spewing hate at people he's never met for things that have no effect on him whatsoever." He said it reminded him of this Onion news broadcast (http://"http://www.theonion.com/content/video/immigration_the_human_cost").

Guy #2 sitting next to me:

"Man, that's one racist dude. God forbid that Americans might have to learn a few words of a foreign language."

I lived in Latin America for 10 years. When I first went there, I knew that if I wanted to make myself understood, I would have to learn spanish.

It would have been arrogant of me to expect people to speak english. Yet, I met plenty of gringos who would complain when people wouldn't speak english to them. I never understood that attitude - after all, we were the "ferners".

Not once, in all the countries I lived in or visited did I see a banner that proclaimed, "Bienvenidos a nuestro pais. Habla español!" That would have been rude and cruel. Not once did I encounter that kind of attitude. I don't think the truck's message serves the purpose of encouraging immigrants to speak english, nor to welcome them - it is an insult and rude behavior - it is like putting out an "Unwelcome Mat".

I too am frustrated when I try to do business with a company and cannot understand the english spoken. I agree that a certain level of proficiency is required for doing business here, or for an english-speaking market (like an overseas call center).

The issue is communication, not intelligence. Just because you speak english or exclusively english, and an immigrant struggles with his english, does not make that person a moron or an idiot. We should not treat people like retards, or try to make them feel inferior because of a communication problem. This only further isolates the immigrant and assimilation becomes all that more difficult.

The message on the truck comes off to me as bigoted and borderline racist. It is not a sign of patriotism or "americanism". At least I hope it's not.

English is second only to Chinese if you figure in secondary speakers, and even that is debatable.  Some say it is #1 because of Pakistan and India having large English speaking populations.  Not to mention, in China most professional people and many people in the cities speak English.

The language is not superior for any inherent reason, but if you had to know ONE language English would be it.  Chinese is not very helpful outside of China...

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Originally posted by mr.jaynes

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Originally posted by restored2x

I saw this truck yesterday on 169 as I drove home from work. Nice, big Ford truck with giant lettering on the back window - "WELCOME TO AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH". The vanity OK plate also said "SPK ENG".

For some reason, this really got me up in arms. I guess I can understand how the person may feel - maybe. Perhaps someone on here can enlighten me.

Before the discussion begins, let me tell you how I feel initially:

The message on the truck displays ignorance in that it doesn't say, "Learn English", just "speak english", as though every person on earth (or at least an immigrant) is born with a command of the english language and is just refusing to speak it.

The message on the truck is ethnocentric, in that it assumes english is the best or only language an American should speak. Ethnocentricity has it's roots not in patriotism, but in arrogance and cultural bias.

I could go on - but I'd rather hear feedback from you first. Am I missing something? Is this just based in fear (is the guy in the truck afraid those "ferners" are talking about him everytime they speak in their native tongue?) or is there some intelligence behind the message that I'm too dense to decipher?

If this has already been discussed, just lead me to that discussion, or ignore the post, please. (Search turned up nothing)

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Personally, I do believe we should speak English here in the US, and we should only sparingly accomodate those who cannot or will not learn the language-if that. English is the official language here, so learn it, ya know?

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I agree with that.

My problem is with people who care about what language someone speaks when they are not doing official business or are talking among themselves. Why should I care what language is dominant in your home? If someone is having a private conversation, what business is it of mine what language it is done in?

If it bothers me - why does it bother me?

All I have to say is I was at Supertarget, and my total was $3.32.  I gave the cashier $5.35.  She said "What eezz thes?" in a very charming, exotic lounge. I said "It's $5.35" The lovely lady then said "Vhat do I do weeth thes? I said "ummmm, you can give me $2.03 change"  "Vhat?" and so on.  I guess everyone else just scans the debit card! LOL!

I don't know where I'm going, but maybe I don't care how well anyone speaks what...just know the currency!!

When I worked for CAP, they told us in training that it was rude to do home visitations, parent teacher conferences in English if the parents spoke Spanish! So on top of my low pay and demanding hours, I gotta learn Spanish!  Sheesh! No wonder I quit social work and went to real estate!

However, when I did real estate I had several possible home-buyers Spanish only speaking.  I would always lead them to another friend who was Spanish fluent and let her have the sale b/c I was terrified of being responsible for something so $$$$$ and everything not being crystal clear for the homebuyer.  And they preferred that anyway, so I lost some commissions there.

[:(]

So looking back, accommodation has cost me on a personal level time and money.  My grandmother is from South America and being the social creature she is, picked up English superfast and didn't expect any favors from anyone.

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

English is second only to Chinese if you figure in secondary speakers, and even that is debatable.  Some say it is #1 because of Pakistan and India having large English speaking populations.  Not to mention, in China most professional people and many people in the cities speak English.

The language is not superior for any inherent reason, but if you had to know ONE language English would be it.  Chinese is not very helpful outside of China...

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IF you had to know ONE language. None of us HAS to know just one language. As a culture, we are monolingual. Many civilized, educated cultures in the world would not even accept that posit. Considering that we are a melting pot, and business leaders on a global scale - you'd think we would welcome other languages as an asset and not consider them "below us".

I wish we knew more about what terms mean.  Patriotism is basic love of the State, as opposed to Nationalism; which basically revolves around the Nation.  Sometimes Patriotism describes a movement better, as in 4th of July.  A celebration of the state.  But sometimes Patriotism and Nationalism are interchangeable.  Is the old KKK Patriotic, or Nationalistic?   Answer: both?

We are not a "Nation-State", under the original meaning of the term.  Now, definitions change, and someone somewhere though Nation and State were redundant, and so they changed the definition.  Which makes the term completely meaningless.  And by default, makes Nationalism meaningless.

However, try telling that to the Nazi's.  They were hell bent on creating a true "Nation-State."  A state, owned and operated and populated by the German "nation."

We have no nationality.  We are multi-national, multi-cultural.  Is it Patriotism?  That's such a relative poorly defined term, that it might just be.  Depends on who you talk to.

joebaloney wrote:

 This post really tickled me. I'm at a coffee shop so I'll get some opinions of other people near me...

Guy #1 sitting next to me:

"The guy's a crusty ol' asswipe and has got nothing better to do than drive around spewing hate at people he's never met for things that have no effect on him whatsoever." He said it reminded him of this Onion news broadcast.

Guy #2 sitting next to me:

"Man, that's one racist dude. God forbid that Americans might have to learn a few words of a foreign language."

<end clip>

Nice first post. Welcome.

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Originally posted by MichaelC

I wish we knew more about what terms mean.  Patriotism is basic love of the State, as opposed to Nationalism; which basically revolves around the Nation.  Sometimes Patriotism describes a movement better, as in 4th of July.  A celebration of the state.  But sometimes Patriotism and Nationalism are interchangeable.  Is the old KKK Patriotic, or Nationalistic?   Answer: both?

We are not a "Nation-State", under the original meaning of the term.  Now, definitions change, and someone somewhere though Nation and State were redundant, and so they changed the definition.  Which makes the term completely meaningless.  And by default, makes Nationalism meaningless.

However, try telling that to the Nazi's.  They were hell bent on creating a true "Nation-State."  A state, owned and operated and populated by the German "nation."

We have no nationality.  We are multi-national, multi-cultural.  Is it Patriotism?  That's such a relative poorly defined term, that it might just be.  Depends on who you talk to.

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That's pretty interesting, Michael. I've actually never thought of those as different, but now that you bring it up - it really could explain a lot of the attitudes and ideas being displayed. Could you elaborate? You barely touched on how that is affecting the situation I am talking about, so (I'm thick) I had to think about it for a minute. But I'd like to hear more when you got the time.

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Originally posted by Kashmir

All I have to say is I was at Supertarget, and my total was $3.32.  I gave the cashier $5.35.  She said "What eezz thes?" in a very charming, exotic lounge. I said "It's $5.35" The lovely lady then said "Vhat do I do weeth thes? I said "ummmm, you can give me $2.03 change"  "Vhat?" and so on.  I guess everyone else just scans the debit card! LOL!

I don't know where I'm going, but maybe I don't care how well anyone speaks what...just know the currency!!

When I worked for CAP, they told us in training that it was rude to do home visitations, parent teacher conferences in English if the parents spoke Spanish! So on top of my low pay and demanding hours, I gotta learn Spanish!  Sheesh! No wonder I quit social work and went to real estate!

However, when I did real estate I had several possible home-buyers Spanish only speaking.  I would always lead them to another friend who was Spanish fluent and let her have the sale b/c I was terrified of being responsible for something so $$$$$ and everything not being crystal clear for the homebuyer.  And they preferred that anyway, so I lost some commissions there.

[:(]

So looking back, accommodation has cost me on a personal level time and money.  My grandmother is from South America and being the social creature she is, picked up English superfast and didn't expect any favors from anyone.

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I've had the same confusion from full blown English speakers when I try to simplify their changemaking - that's just someone who doesn't understand that you're trying to minimize the amount of change you get back.  And really, the shame should be on Target for having someone who doesn't know how to properly calculate currency working the register.

Yeah, no sweat.

You mentioned bigotry and racism.  It certainly could be.  In a political sense, anything that's racist is going to be, generally, closer to Nationalism.  The idea that we are defending our "nation" (race/ethnicity/culture) against outsiders (those apart from our race/ethnicity/culture).

When you mention Patriotism, it's very poorly defined as "love of State."  Can Patriotism and racism co-exist?  Absolutely they can.  Nazi's were very Patriotic, in the sense that they loved the state.  Southern white folk in South Carolina pushing for secession, loved the State (of South Carolina).  They were also racist as hell, and loved the Nation to the detriment of all other Nations.

If you apply the same principles to the US, under the old definitions of Nation, you'll find contradictions and gray-areas all over the place.  

Examples: if the State is multi-national, and you hate other Nations, can you love the State?  If you claim you love the State, while all along you hate everything the State does, are you Patriotic?

But no one has a monopoly on the term Patriotism.  And again, it's definition is weak and broad.  Anyone can claim to be a Patriot, even though often, here in the US, that term is used as a cover for actions that are Nationalistic in nature.

Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.

Great point Michael.  I frequently consider the US a "Nation State" as we have developed a unique culture (blended of others), occupy a specific region, and identify ourselves as a unique group of people (a nation)and control a central government, military force, and world recognition (a state).  But in the historical context the "nation" aspect is lacking in the United States.

So I would argue that we have developed into a Nation State, it certainly is not in the historical context (that being a group of common people come to dominate their area and assert their sovereignty... like the PKK is trying to do or the Polish have had to do repeatedly).   Then again, a Nation State is not inherently good nor bad either (most actually started out as bad, killing their competition to found their State.  Often the competition then moved on to kill someone else and found their State see Normans, Anglo's, Saxons etc.).

Interesting tangent Michael.

    quote:Originally posted by Kashmir

    All I have to say is I was at Supertarget, and my total was $3.32. I gave the cashier $5.35. She said "What eezz thes?" in a very charming, exotic lounge. I said "It's $5.35" The lovely lady then said "Vhat do I do weeth thes? I said "ummmm, you can give me $2.03 change" "Vhat?" and so on. I guess everyone else just scans the debit card! LOL!

    I don't know where I'm going, but maybe I don't care how well anyone speaks what...just know the currency!!

    When I worked for CAP, they told us in training that it was rude to do home visitations, parent teacher conferences in English if the parents spoke Spanish! So on top of my low pay and demanding hours, I gotta learn Spanish! Sheesh! No wonder I quit social work and went to real estate!

    However, when I did real estate I had several possible home-buyers Spanish only speaking. I would always lead them to another friend who was Spanish fluent and let her have the sale b/c I was terrified of being responsible for something so $$$$$ and everything not being crystal clear for the homebuyer. And they preferred that anyway, so I lost some commissions there.



    So looking back, accommodation has cost me on a personal level time and money. My grandmother is from South America and being the social creature she is, picked up English superfast and didn't expect any favors from anyone.



I've had the same confusion from full blown English speakers when I try to simplify their changemaking - that's just someone who doesn't understand that you're trying to minimize the amount of change you get back. And really, the shame should be on Target for having someone who doesn't know how to properly calculate currency working the register.

 

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Oh I know, I guess I never got around to my point, which was supposed to be, I don't care, just "Come on people now, smile at your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another..."oops.

I find languages facinating and I love listening, especially to those from the Middle East.  It's so different.  But we can't be expected to do things for Spanish speakers that we don't for Vietnamese, etc.  

But the truck guy is probably a Minuteman who sits on his duff and watches CMT all day.

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Originally posted by restored2x

I saw this truck yesterday on 169 as I drove home from work. Nice, big Ford truck with giant lettering on the back window - "WELCOME TO AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH". The vanity OK plate also said "SPK ENG".

For some reason, this really got me up in arms. I guess I can understand how the person may feel - maybe. Perhaps someone on here can enlighten me.

Before the discussion begins, let me tell you how I feel initially:

The message on the truck displays ignorance in that it doesn't say, "Learn English", just "speak english", as though every person on earth (or at least an immigrant) is born with a command of the english language and is just refusing to speak it.

The message on the truck is ethnocentric, in that it assumes english is the best or only language an American should speak. Ethnocentricity has it's roots not in patriotism, but in arrogance and cultural bias.

I could go on - but I'd rather hear feedback from you first. Am I missing something? Is this just based in fear (is the guy in the truck afraid those "ferners" are talking about him everytime they speak in their native tongue?) or is there some intelligence behind the message that I'm too dense to decipher?

If this has already been discussed, just lead me to that discussion, or ignore the post, please. (Search turned up nothing)

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I am glad we have yet another thread bashing Oklahomans as racists, rednecks, etc. Its been a long time.

I wish every citizen of this state would check with this forum before they go out and decide to use that free speech or other First Amendment stuff. That way, people would know in advance that you, RW, and others might be offended or be "up in arms."  

I have to disagree a bit, CF.  I can't accept the newer definition of Nation-State, because the term is basically redundant and therefore meaningless.  And not all Nationalists are Patriots.

Example:  Michigan Militia.  Nationalists, they might like to call themselves Patriots, but they don't love the state.  Timothy McVeigh, Nationalist.  Anti-gov't movements have the tendency to align themselves with Nationalistic  (ethnic/race/cultural) interests.  The Branch Dividians, Nationalists revolving around the culture of a religious sect, scared to death of the State.  The Black Panthers, Nationalists.  They don't care about the State, only advancement of a Nation within the State.  KKK, Nationalists, sometimes aligned with Aryan Nation anti-gov't and Anarchist groups.  

And then there are wide differences in culture, besides smaller ethnic pockets, like East Tulsa or North Tulsa, there are even differences among average citizens just because of geographic locations (say New York, Oregon, and Oklahoma).

And, "Nation-State" is a Utopian concept.  It's not necessarily good or bad.  But, it's also not necessarily reasonable to believe that it would ever exist in practice.  It's purely theoretical, and quite possibly impractical.  Though some have tried.

One other concept, that hasn't been mentioned yet, that might assist in the understanding of the old "Nation" versus the old "State", is the term Fascism.  Fascism is the result of a merger between Nation and State, Nationalism and Patriotism.  Fascism, historically, is where the State projects Nationalism, with an equal amount of promotion of Patriotism.  And there's no more difference between the two concepts, they combine and work together for the same goal.

That definition has been muddled up some too, just like Nation and Nationalism.  But gray areas aside, in practice, most literally "Fascism" combines the Nation concept and the Patriot concept, with the State itself.

One of the distinctive things about Oklahoma is that we find ourselves with a large number of Native American people.  I believe Oklahoma should do everything possible to preserve Native cultures and languages.

My mother’s last and one of her best boyfriends was a Native American man who cut hair here in Tulsa for many, many years.  He talked about growing up in Oklahoma.  When he was growing up he was separated from his family and put in a school where he was forbidden to ever speak his native tongue.  Obviously this left a lot of scares.  Thank goodness those days are long gone and the people that formed those old policies have been completely discredited.

Differences excite me but it seems that for many people differences are frightening.  Like my city friends who are literally frightened of Okies.  

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Originally posted by guido911

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Originally posted by restored2x

I saw this truck yesterday on 169 as I drove home from work. Nice, big Ford truck with giant lettering on the back window - "WELCOME TO AMERICA, SPEAK ENGLISH". The vanity OK plate also said "SPK ENG".

For some reason, this really got me up in arms. I guess I can understand how the person may feel - maybe. Perhaps someone on here can enlighten me.

Before the discussion begins, let me tell you how I feel initially:

The message on the truck displays ignorance in that it doesn't say, "Learn English", just "speak english", as though every person on earth (or at least an immigrant) is born with a command of the english language and is just refusing to speak it.

The message on the truck is ethnocentric, in that it assumes english is the best or only language an American should speak. Ethnocentricity has it's roots not in patriotism, but in arrogance and cultural bias.

I could go on - but I'd rather hear feedback from you first. Am I missing something? Is this just based in fear (is the guy in the truck afraid those "ferners" are talking about him everytime they speak in their native tongue?) or is there some intelligence behind the message that I'm too dense to decipher?

If this has already been discussed, just lead me to that discussion, or ignore the post, please. (Search turned up nothing)

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I am glad we have yet another thread bashing Oklahomans as racists, rednecks, etc. Its been a long time.

I wish every citizen of this state would check with this forum before they go out and decide to use that free speech or other First Amendment stuff. That way, people would know in advance that you, RW, and others might be offended or be "up in arms."  

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I don't know if the guy is Oklahoman or not. He can say whatever he wants. SO CAN I. I've lived in a lot of places and seen racism and bigotry everywhere I've been. It ain't no secret. How you came to the conclusion that I was wholesale calling all Okies racists is a mystery to me. I've read my posts several times before replying to see if I miss-spoke, and I have not found a trace of Okie-bashing.

I am not bashing Okies. That was not my intent. I'm sorry if I came off that way. I worded my statements, questions and comments to specific situations - not a group of people. If I thought Oklahoma was nothing but bigots and racists, or backward and uneducated - I would leave. I happen to really like where I live. One guy in a red truck doesn't change my view of Tulsa. This is a public forum - and I wanted to discuss this. No ulterior motive.

In processing how I feel about the SPK ENG truck - yes, I guess I do find it offensive. Some of my reasons are stated here - as my own personal opinion. You may disagree, or take it personal and that's OK. Please, don't put words in my mouth.

<Guido wrote:

I wish every citizen of this state would check with this forum before they go out and decide to use that free speech or other First Amendment stuff. That way, people would know in advance that you, RW, and others might be offended or be "up in arms."

<end clip>

The First Amendment gives you the right to be offensive, Guido. It also gives you the right to speak out against what you think is offensive, which is what is happening here.

That's fine by me. I trust that you feel the same about our Constitution.

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Originally posted by guido911

I am glad we have yet another thread bashing Oklahomans as racists, rednecks, etc. Its been a long time.

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And I'm so glad we've been blessed with another of your wingnut quips.

You know, if you ever bothered to read any of these threads before jumping in with your thought-provoking commentary, you'd probably realize that most of your conservative "fellow travelers" on this board have opinions that are nuanced and interesting.  Perhaps that's why they come here...you know, to discuss, debate, argue, etc.

From what I understand, air traffic controllers all over the world have to speak english. English is pretty much the standard language of aviation. That would also require all (at least commerical) pilots to speak english also.

I think I drifted there restored2x.  Don't know if I provided answers, just hope I provided something to think about.

Terms get thrown around so often, sometimes regardless of meaning.  It's hard to tell where someone is coming from, what their motives are.  Sometimes an apple is not really an apple, even though it calls itself one.

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Originally posted by MichaelC

I think I drifted there restored2x.  Don't know if I provided answers, just hope I provided something to think about.

Terms get thrown around so often, sometimes regardless of meaning.  It's hard to tell where someone is coming from, what their motives are.  Sometimes an apple is not really an apple, even though it calls itself one.

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No drift at all - I really appreciate your explanations. You definitely provided me with some food for thought. I tend to think about stuff while I do mindless tasks like mowing the lawn, raking leaves, etc. Some of your thoughts will be pondered. This provides some "mental folders" to scan later when I make time to think. (Life is pretty busy when you actually have to set time aside to think!)

It's pretty cool to break something like this down into smaller pieces and see what's behind the attitudes and behaviors.

It is interesting to look into terms.  It's unfortunate IMO, what happened to the term "Nation-State", and Nation, and Nationalism.  Because even though the old "Nation-State" is Utopian, the "Nation" part of that is the important word.  Not State.  "Nation" is supposed to define the type of "State" in "Nation-State."  It defines the philosophy or make-up of the State.  It's defines, sometimes, the practices and intentions of the state.

And today, people use the word Nation and State interchangeably.  People use Nation as if it means "country".  The term Nation-State no longer has a meaningful purpose.  Shouldn't exist, if defined as it is today.

Though Wiki has a pretty good explanation.  I hadn't looked until just now.  Doesn't really cover the philosophical/Utopian, aspect much.  But it's not bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation-state

Ok. . .How do I start.  

I disagree with the way the "Trucker" phrased his banner.  But I support his right to display it.

I also believe that every immigrant that wants to live in America should learn to speak English.  It would be damaging to our country and devastating to the immigrants not to.  Let me explain the reasoning behind this before you start calling me names.

An immigrant that moves to America is at a significant disadvantage if he or she cannot speak English.  They cannot take full advantage of the American dream, and will, in many cases, be taken advantage of.  Many of these people speak only their native language with their American born children.  As a result, these children enter elementary school without an ability to communicate with most of their classmates and teachers.

I work with a Vietnamese gentleman who speaks fair english, his wife does not. They only spoke Vietnamese with their child until the kid was 5.  As a result, the public school they have now placed the child in, has no idea what to do except offer a language program and hold the child back until she learns to communicate on a level that will allow her to function within the system.  This child may never have the same opportunity as her classmates.

 We have so many diverse cultures that are added to our population every year, we cannot make the accommodations necessary to communicate in all of their native languages, and secondly it is not our responsibility to do so.  

As a young man I worked as a paramedic and was faced with a situation where a Asian patient was convulsive, in and out of conciseness, and in a great deal of pain.  We delivered him to the hospital and it was 6 hours until we could find a translator for his particular Chinese dialect.  As it turned out, he was suffering from a rather impressive kidney stone, was allergic to the morphine we had given him, and had active tuberculosis.  He was trying to communicate the entire time.  What we thought were convulsions were pained attempts to communicate.  We came very close to killing him, and he nearly infected us.

I speak some Spanish and I know several hispanic laborers that speak no English.  They are brilliant craftsmen and in many cases they have a better understanding of construction than their foremen, but they will always be paid less and offered less opportunity.  Too many doors will be closed to them.

It's not fair to oppress these people by portraying a system of accommodation that simply can not exist.

I have no problem with people speaking their native language, in fact I find it fascinating.  But. . .American citizens must be able to communicate, and to do so we need a single national language, and we must mandate an understanding of it.

If that makes me a racist, or a bigot, or any other of the favorite words thrown around by "Discussion Forum Elite," then so be it.

The BS that is being posted in this thread under the guise of "multiculturalism" is amazing!  English is spoken by nearly 1.8 Billion and has the fastest growing lexicon of any language with about 25,000 words added to the language each year.  That's nearly 100 times the number of new words added each year in the Spanish language (most of which are English adaptations).  That's 68.5 new words every day!  

As a result of the dominance of english in science, technology, and invention, most of the new words added to other languages are simply adaptations of new English words, with the exception of the French language that strictly resists the addition of new vocabulary that is not of a french origin.

I'm not saying it's the best language.  I don't really care.  It's the language of our country.  If you can speak it, then no matter what your nationality, you are open to all of the opportunity that our country has available.  If you cannot speak it. . .and don't intend to learn it. . .and would like to demand that America make concessions necessary to accommodate you, than you are free to do so, but you will simply have to exist within the box you have built for yourself.  Don't worry there will be lots of "multiculturalists" to speak for you. . . you just won't know what BS they are spewing.

Spoonbill, what do you say about states, such as New Mexico, that are officially bilingual? They do this because Spanish-speaking people were there long before before the white men came.

What about Indians on tribal land? Since Indian territory is a sovereign nation, shouldn't they able to speak their own language?

Plus, the second generation of immigrants in the U.S. speak English fluently. Is an English-only designation truly needed when the assimilation is going to occur anyway?

It seems like this is all a tempest in a teapot, and the more you examine the English-only silliness, the less practical it becomes.

This is America. Let folks speak whatever language they like. They'll adjust to English; if it's practical, they will do so.

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Originally posted by spoonbill

Don't worry there will be lots of "multiculturalists" to speak for you. . . you just won't know what BS they are spewing.

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We are "multi-cultural".  Always have been.  "Multi-culturalism" doesn't have to be promoted, sometimes defended from strange attacks, but not promoted.  It's here.  It's what makes the USA, the USA.

You don't hate the USA do you?  [:P]

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Originally posted by rwarn17588

Spoonbill, what do you say about states, such as New Mexico, that are officially bilingual? They do this because Spanish-speaking people were there long before before the white men came.

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As I said.  They can live within the box they create for themselves (I guess NM is thier box), but I would rather see them have more oppertunity.

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Originally posted by rwarn17588

What about Indians on tribal land? Since Indian territory is a sovereign nation, shouldn't they able to speak their own language?

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As I said.  They can live within the box they create for themselves (I guess the reservation is thier box), but I would rather see them have more oppertunity.

quote:

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Originally posted by rwarn17588

Plus, the second generation of immigrants in the U.S. speak English fluently. Is an English-only designation truly needed when the assimilation is going to occur anyway?

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Many do not until after they enter the public school system, and this holds them back, preventing many oppertunities.  Ask a Tulsa Public School elementary teacher.

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Originally posted by rwarn17588

It seems like this is all a tempest in a teapot, and the more you examine the English-only silliness, the less practical it becomes.

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Don't diminish this argument.  If you are not an English-only fan, good for you.  You seem to be able to communicate very well using English, however, it makes no difference what language a community of people speak as long as they can all communicate with each other.  So for the purpose of this argument, lets call it "The Single-Language" argument, so as not to offend those who believe English to be inferior.

 A barrier is a barrier.  Do you believe that immigrants to America have the same opportunities if they opt to not learn English?  Do you think they pose a burden or even a hazard to others or themselves if they have no ability to communicate linguistically?

quote:

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Originally posted by rwarn17588

This is America. Let folks speak whatever language they like. They'll adjust to English; if it's practical, they will do so.

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I agree with this.  But dont' be angry with me if you speak only Hindi and I won't hire you because you cannot communicate with me, my staff, or my clients.  Don't demand that I provide all communications to you in English/Hindi translation!

I'm a third-generation American.  My grandparents routinely spoke Polish around the house, and their church didn't switch over to all English language services until the 1960s.  They and many like them, came here in the early part of the 20th century, set to work and raised families, and sent many of their sons off to fight in the Second World War.  It annoys me that some would imply anyone who speaks a foreign language is somehow un-American.  

It was wrenching for Mary and I to move here to Oklahoma, knowing no one and leaving our extended families far away.  But at least we spoke English.  Think about how much harder it must have been for non-English speaking immigrants to make the journey here and plant new roots.