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Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on October 22, 2007, 10:54:45 am My hood is now designated.
There are 4 Historic Districts: Riverview, Carlton Place, Stone Breaker Heights and Buena Vista. Check out the Improved Tulsa Preservation Commission site: Tulsa Preservation Commission (http://"http://www.tulsapreservationcommission.org/nationalregister/districts/") Wonder when we'll get our invite from COHN? Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: pmcalk on October 22, 2007, 11:08:52 am Congratulations, Carltonplace, you are now officially historic.[;)]
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: Rico on October 23, 2007, 06:47:24 pm I have a question regarding "your hood" Riverview.. I assume if Riverview is on the National Register that an "inventory" of the neighborhood was done. I know when they do an inventory, there are "contributing, non contributing, and stand alone structures" designated.. OK here is my question. I know of several houses in the Riverview neighborhood that were moved there from near the Downtown area. Per the "Tulsa Preservation Commission", (when a structure is moved it looses it's historic status.) How are these houses listed on an inventory of a neighborhood that achieves Historic Designation status? Just curious Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on October 23, 2007, 10:08:25 pm ^ A portion of the Victorian style Perryman house at 1313 S Elwood was built in the 1880s. Originally, the house was located near 6th and Boulder. Around 1909, the house was moved to its current location. It's one of the oldest buildings in Riverview, if not the oldest. The house was moved to Riverview before the neighborhood was developed.
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on October 23, 2007, 11:11:17 pm (http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A1163.jpg)
This photo (http://"http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A1163.jpg") was taken from the top of the Sophian Plaza around 1929. It shows the eastern portion of the Riverview neighborhood. Note the street railway tracks in Frisco Avenue at the lower left. Streetcar service on this line was discontinued around 1928, but the vestiges of the tracks were visible in the asphalt pavement until a few years ago when Frisco was resurfaced. The digital image is one of thousands from the Beryl Ford Collection (http://"http://www.berylfordcollection.com/") provided to the public by the Rotary Club of Tulsa. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: Rico on October 24, 2007, 07:24:39 am quote: ^ With the above being taken into account.... I would really like to see the "Inventory" for the neighborhood... One of the houses I was referring to was moved from near where the Mayo is located. Either there is a broad discrepancy regarding the moving of a Historic Structure... Or the local Historic Preservation Commission was not quite up to speed on the facts. With what I have been told the "Perryman" structure would have to be listed as a (non-contributing) building. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on October 24, 2007, 08:20:10 am Houses that were moved to the neighborhood or have been altered are considered "non-contributing"
Alterations that detract from contribution are: Removing wood frame windows , changing the "face" of the home, removing exterior sideing, adding vinyl siding etc. I actualy worked hard to restore my home by removing the vinyl siding, repairing the wood frame windows, repairing the cedar shake siding and weatherboard and replacing lost architectural details. It is considered contributing. The house next to me had a closed in porch that prevented it from being on the list, but that original porch and details are now restored and the preservation commission is taking another look at it. Tulsa World Article (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/community/article.aspx?subjectID=80&articleID=071024_9_ZM3_spanc23503") Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: Rico on October 24, 2007, 09:22:19 am quote: Thank You Carlton. I appreciate the info. To me structures that have been moved from one location, to within a Historic District, should be viewed as a contributing fact of the History of the District....therefore a contributing entity of the Neighborhood. JMO Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: mac on October 26, 2007, 02:23:13 pm quote: cartonplace, Your president has been invited to join COHN but has not responded. Contact her and urge her to respond and I will see that she is contacted again. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: mac on October 26, 2007, 09:15:34 pm ooops, I mean carltonplace
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on October 29, 2007, 09:20:07 pm quote: I agree. I wonder if the hideous apartments built in Riverview after the 1950s are considered to be contributing structures while a house built in the 1880s and moved to the neighborhood around 1910 is not. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: Kenosha on October 29, 2007, 10:17:36 pm because in order to be historic, "old" isn't enough.
LOL. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: spoonbill on October 30, 2007, 05:13:00 am You will get all kinds of tax incentives for individual homeowners. Grants for the neighborhood will be available too.
Don't take any of them!!! [:)] I'm not going to tell you why. There are several architects on this forum, and I don't want to get their feathers ruffled. Do a little research on your own and find out what happens once you accept any of these offers. That is all. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: AVERAGE JOE on October 30, 2007, 07:45:54 am quote: The quote above is patently false. Grants are non-existent and tax incentives for National Register properties don't include owner-occupied private residences. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: spoonbill on October 30, 2007, 09:10:33 am quote: Be careful. Let me clarify. You are correct, if you claim no income from the structure you are not eligible for tax incentives. . . But if you claim a home office or use any of the property to generate revenue and your tax advisor recommends that you file for tax incentives for rehabilitation (a 20% federal and state tax credit!), I would avoid it. No grants are available on the federal level except for: American Battlefield Protection Program Battlefield Acquisition Grants?American Battlefield Protection Program Partnership Grants?Historic Barn Preservation Program Grants?National Historic Covered Bridge Preservation Grants?National Maritime Heritage Grants?National Underground Railroad to Freedom Grants. However numerous private grants are available for historic homes. Each with their own set of controls. To name a few: 1772 Foundation Advisory Council on Historic Preservation?American Battlefield Protection Grants Carls Foundation Conservation Center for Art and Historic Artifacts (CCAHA) Historic District Commission Downtown Development Authority (J. P.) Getty Trust?Architectural Conservation Grants History Channel 'Save Our History' National Grant Program James Marston Fitch Charitable Foundation (Samuel H) Kress Foundation?European Preservation Program Legacy Resource Management Program Partners for Sacred Places (PSP Preserve America Grants Restore America Grants Program Save America's Treasures Grant Applications Tourism Cares Worldwide Grant Program I apologize for not clarifying. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on October 30, 2007, 09:28:34 am quote: I agree that the Perryman has historic significance to Tulsa, but it does not contribute to the historic relevance of Riverview. It's wonderful that the house was saved and relocated and even better that it's rehabilitated. I think it should be added to the NRHP on its own merits. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on October 30, 2007, 12:27:33 pm Nearly all of the buildings in Riverview were built after the Perryman house was moved there. Riverview neighborhood developed around the Perryman house. It is an integral part of the history of Riverview and of downtown Tulsa.
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on October 30, 2007, 03:04:51 pm quote: What year was it moved? Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on October 30, 2007, 07:55:43 pm The Perryman house was moved to Riverview around 1909 or 1910 to make way for the new county courthouse at Sixth and Boulder.
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: Rico on October 30, 2007, 08:48:40 pm Several of the other homes in Riverview were moved as well.
As the Policy, of the Historical Preservation Commission, these homes including the Perryman House are "non-contributing".. I agree that with boo.... the policy stinks Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on October 31, 2007, 09:58:34 am quote: Well that puts it in the neighborhood before the neighborhood was established, so a special exception should be made to consider it contributing. I think the story of the life of this house is incredibly interesting. The fact that it was a Perryman residence alone should give it sufficient historic value. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on October 31, 2007, 08:11:15 pm quote: The Perryman house was moved to Riverview, and it has been significantly altered. That's typically what happens to buildings over time. They are either altered to remain useful for their owners or they are destroyed. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: pmcalk on October 31, 2007, 08:18:05 pm ^I thought I heard they were trying to refurbish it to bring it back to its original design.
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on October 31, 2007, 08:32:22 pm ^ The owner is working now to alter the house so it is closer to its original appearance when it was
According to carltonplace, a structure which has been moved or altered is non-contributing. The Perryman house has been moved AND altered. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on November 01, 2007, 10:21:52 am Now
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.com/images/perrymannew.jpg) Then (http://www.riverviewtulsa.com/images/perryman.jpg) The North Wing has been replaced, it looks more and more like it did Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on November 01, 2007, 11:40:18 am The rear of the Perryman house has been greatly altered.
Much of what you see on the house today is not original fabric. It has been reconstructed to resemble some of the features shown in the old black and white photo. Since the roofline, the massing, the trim, and the fenestration have been substantially altered, and since the house was moved to Riverview, I can understand how it might be immediately categorized as a non-contributing structure. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: TheArtist on November 01, 2007, 01:08:07 pm Hadnt seen it since the latest remodel. It does look more like the old photos than it did for a long time. If they added some gingerbread on the one peak, changed the roofline on the tower and added the balustrade over the porch, that would go a long way to making it look like it once did. The funky roofline on the tower is that homes most unique and defining charactersitic imo.
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on November 02, 2007, 09:22:43 am I had heard that the owner wanted to put the crow's nest back, but ran into some zoning problems. He has not put a new roof on the tower, even though the rest of the roof is new so I wonder if he is still hoping to make those changes.
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on June 29, 2008, 07:00:40 am quote: What about houses that have been moved within a neighborhood? What about a house which has been moved on its own lot? Thanks for the newspaper link. The article itself includes a couple of links. The Tulsa Preservation Commission's website is very informative. It mentions some Intensive Level Surveys from September 2005. Perhaps all the non-contributing structures are listed on those surveys. Anyone know if these are online now? If not, are copies available to the public? Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on June 29, 2008, 09:01:52 am quote: According to the minutes of Tulsa Preservation Commission from April 12, 2007 (http://"http://www.tulsapreservationcommission.org/pdf/minutesTPC20070510.pdf"), the owner requested that the TPC draft a letter of support for his Board of Adjustment appeal for a height variance so he could build a replica of the house's original tower. The TPC voted unanimously to approve the requested letter of support. (See item 3 on page 4 of this pdf link (http://"http://www.tulsapreservationcommission.org/pdf/minutesTPC20070510.pdf").) As far as I know, the owner hasn't requested a variance from the Board of Adjustment. But it seems to me that the proposed tower, provided it is not intended for human occupancy nor taller than 52 feet 6 inches, could be built without Board of Adjustment approval according to Section 208.C of the Zoning Code (http://"http://www.cityoftulsa.org/ourcity/ordinances/Title42-2.asp"). Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: waterboy on June 29, 2008, 12:10:21 pm Back in the mid to late 70's I remember seeing a decorative iron entry way arch on Carson at about 14th street. I don't remember what it said, maybe the neighborhood name. It sat on two brick piers which are still there. What ever happened to the arch?
Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on June 29, 2008, 12:47:06 pm I heard that the sign rusted beyond repair. I've also heard plans for installing a replacement sign at 14th & Carson. The piers for the second sign are long gone.
(http://www.tulsalawyer.com/img187.gif) ...from the Retro Tulsa Museum (http://"http://www.tulsalawyer.com/page6.html"), provided online by the Feldman Franden Woodard & Farris law firm (http://"http://www.tulsalawyer.com/index.html") Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: mrB on June 29, 2008, 03:10:07 pm (http://riverviewtulsa.com/images/Carlton%20Place2.JPG) (http://"http://riverviewtulsa.com/HISTORY/history3.htm") | caption from website | "14th St and Carson Avenue circa 1913. This neighborhood is intact, but the arch was taken down by the city in the 1970s. The neighborhood plans to replace this historic artifact as a Vision 2025 project." Picture is from the Tulsa Riverview Neighborhood website. (http://"http://riverviewtulsa.com") I was in this neighborhood just the other day. It's always amazing to see these old pictures of Tulsa before trees were planted and grew in these early Tulsa neighborhoods. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: mrB on June 29, 2008, 03:59:44 pm quote: Thanks booWorld for the link to the Retro Tulsa Museum (http://"http://www.tulsalawyer.com/page6.html"), I just went through the collection. Very nice and appreciated since it's done by someone on their free time. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: booWorld on June 29, 2008, 10:03:07 pm You're welcome, mrB. I'm not certain, but I think the hand tinted postcard is a view looking south at 14th & Cheyenne. None of the houses looks familiar to me, and I don't see the Mayo house (which is the only remaining on that block) on the left, so I can't be sure. The black and white photo was taken at 14th & Carson. Those masonry piers and small metal side arches are still there.
(http://www.tulsalawyer.com/img187.gif)(http://riverviewtulsa.com/images/Carlton%20Place2.JPG) Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on June 30, 2008, 12:53:22 pm The color post card on the left was a retouched black and white. At the time of the picture was taken the Mayo house had not yet been built.
Here is a picture of Cheyenne Ave looking south from 15th St circa 1915 (I found this in the TU Kendallabrum from that year): (http://riverviewtulsa.com/images/kendallabrum002.jpg) If you look carefully at the end of the block you can make out the arch. The neighborhood is working on a plan to replace the arch on Carson, but due to height considerations we will make a few modifications. We also have a plan to install "gateways" around the neighborhood that will mirror the columns. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: PonderInc on July 01, 2008, 04:45:59 pm This stretch of Carson is one of my favorite streets in Tulsa. Love the remnants of the arches. I love walking between them on the sidewalks.
Funny how much things have changed. We used to have these graceful arches ("Welcome to our beautiful street!")...now we have gated communities ("Everyone is evil. Stay out.") Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: SXSW on July 01, 2008, 05:51:48 pm The empty lots south of the Creek Council Oak on 18th and along Cheyenne would make great places for houses someday. That is where I would build if I could acquire the land. Riverview is my favorite neighborhood in the city and I'm very happy to A) see it get historic distinction and B) start to see some new developments.
Curious though, would the historic area limit what NEW homebuilders could do to their homes? I'm not talking about renovating but rather new construction within the district. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on July 03, 2008, 12:25:44 pm quote: Glad you like my hood. My street has changed a lot since I bought my old house. Many of the other houses around me have been purchased and restored, and every restoral has served to return the house back to its original state rather than to try to make them more modern: For example installing storm windows rather than replacing the wood windows or by removing vinyl siding and blowing in insulation to show off the old cedar siding and shakes. Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: carltonplace on July 03, 2008, 12:30:15 pm quote: We don't have any restrictions on what can be built in the area which has worked out for good and ill. Just to the south of the Council Oak is Stickball Park which is getting a new fence and landscaping. Further south is already pretty dense except for the lot on 21st behind what used to be Duffy's. 17th and Cheyenne has a big parking lot where a mansion once stood (Thanks Oral Roberts) and Boulder Ave has lots of development potential if the Abundant Life building was removed (thanks Oral Roberts). Title: Riverview Listed on National Register Post by: AVERAGE JOE on July 03, 2008, 01:42:02 pm quote: Those aren't empty lots. That's a park. And that land is protected from development, the same as the Council Oak Tree park. They go together. |