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Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: tulsa1603 on October 09, 2007, 09:27:13 am As someone who lives near 15th between Harvard and Lewis, I have always been annoyed by the rather haphazard quality of commerce and development along it. I have a developed a theory as to why it is so. If you go to 15th between Peoria and Utica, you have slightly more density along the streetfront, but the neighborhoods to the north and south are no more walkable. The main difference I see is that parking is allowed ON the street during non-rush hours. When you drive between harvard and lewis, parking is never allowed on the streets, and most of the businesses along there have substandard on-site parking (if any at all). People at the dance studio at 15th and Evanston park on the sidewalk or in the neghborhood. The scooter store at Florence has customers parking on Florence and it creates a bit of congestion for people trying to enter the neighborhood. Other places barely have enough spaces to have more than 1 or 2 customers at a time. I'm of the opinion that perhaps this is is a major negative for these properties and has contributed to their decay. From my quick analysis, there are more houses within walking distance of this strip of 15th than there are from the section between Peoria and Utica - we have Florence Park on the south, and Renaissance to the north - combined that's nearly a square mile residential developement. I live a block in from 15th on the Florence Park side, and during the evening, there is constant foot traffic along 16th. People walking dogs, jogging, couples walking and talking, etc. I have always theorized that they take 16th rather than 15th since 15th is rather unpleasant on this stretch. To me, it's always more comforting to walk along 15th between Peoria and Utica where there is a buffer of parked cars between you and traffic rather than cars speeding by at 40 mph right beside you. Add to that the multiple empty buildings and abandoned storefronts, and who would WANT to walk there?
So with all that said, I wonder what it would be like if they switched 15th along this corridor to be like 15th between peoria and utica. Allow parking on the street during business hours, but not during rush hours. What got me thinking about this was that the "church" behind Piehole Pizza is for sale or lease now, and I was curious "What could you possibly DO with that thing? There isn't enough parking on site for a restaurant..." I began to think about what it would take to develop this strip of 15th to be more like the other, and in comparing the two, the most obvious difference is the lack of easy on-street parking. I'm not debating that CHerry street has more charm architecturally, plus it has a great view of downtown, but I think that the ingredients are sitting right there along this less popular strip of 15th that it could be almost as nice. I'm also thinking that certain properties on both the Renaissance and Florence park sides could be redeveloped into denser residential - particularly since we're still fairly close to downtown and TU. Does anyone remember a time where Cherry street did NOT have parking on the street? Was there a time where it switched? Was there ever a time when the strip of 15th I'm talking about had parking on the street? All I know about my end of 15th is that it used to be rough and full of bars, but that it's been cleared up in the last 15 years or so. Obviously, I'm not a traffic engineer, but I can't imagine that this would make traffic on this strip any worse than it is on the western strip where this parking policy is already in place. Any thoughts? Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: waterboy on October 09, 2007, 02:38:13 pm No parking on 15th between Peoria and Utica? Hasn't been so in my lifetime (since 1951). We always considered 15th from Utica to Memorial as the faster alternative to 11th or 21st both of which had too much traffic. After it became Cherry Street, that thought process moved the short cut further and further east till now it only is fast between Harvard and Memorial.
What a waste of a fine potential extension to Cherry Street development. Especially if you continue to the South at Harvard over to 21st. Surely others have recognized that potential. I have seen many interesting businesses open and close along that stretch. Now I understand why. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: TheArtist on October 09, 2007, 06:02:09 pm I belive there is on street parking on 15th st between Peoria and Utica.
Church for sale? Wonder how much they want. I have always thought it would be neat to live in an old church. Would make a really neat art gallery/studio and or coffe shop as well. Where is "the piehole pizza" dare I ask lol? Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: waterboy on October 09, 2007, 06:12:59 pm quote: I probably didn't do my post well. He asked had there always been on street parking between Peoria and Utica. I meant as long as I can remember. Pie Hole is just west of Delaware at 15th. Best I remember next to a liquour store. The church behind it is better described as a church owned and operated building. Many times added to and remodeled, it was sort of a Catholic youth center when I was a student at Wilson. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: Rico on October 09, 2007, 06:32:43 pm Originally posted by the Artist.
quote: For you.... let's see..... Take the B.A. towards Downtown...>>> Get off on 15th St.>>> East one block on the south. Isn't there parking East of Delaware on 15th street...? Where Jim Thompson's is now and the collection of antique stores... The space age carpet store, gone belly up, also has the lot on the corner... and on 15th... don't they.? Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: tulsa1603 on October 09, 2007, 10:09:00 pm quote: They do have a few parking lots, however, so do several places on the Peoria-Utica stretch...And the parking in those instances is ONLY for those places. It doesn't really help places like the church I'm talking about... Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: tulsa1603 on October 09, 2007, 10:10:46 pm quote: I'd also thought about the stretch along Harvard, but figured turning it into a sometimes two lane would be too controversial - though it appears wide enough in several places that it could stay 4-lane AND accomodate parking on the street. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: tulsa1603 on October 09, 2007, 10:47:30 pm Ah ha!
Thanks to Beryl Ford.... Looking east from 15th and Delaware, mid 1960's: (http://i20.tinypic.com/2ppbq6p.jpg) Looking east from 15th and Florence Place, mid 1960's: (http://i22.tinypic.com/4s1z5e.jpg) I see parking on the street. Which would explain why so many of the buildings are built right up to the sidewalk, but have minimal parking on site. And just for you, Waterboy, a pic looking south on Harvard at 15th, from the 1950's: (http://i22.tinypic.com/2wftztj.jpg) Again, parking ON the street... Well, as a person who uses 15th daily, I'd be glad to see this setup return to this stretch - i think it would make the commercial properties along there much more viable. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: Rico on October 10, 2007, 06:22:50 am quote: Out of curiosity... Where do the people that go to the functions at the "Art Deco"? style little theater park..? Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: tulsa1603 on October 10, 2007, 08:42:33 am quote: They have a small parking lot, but most park on Delaware heading south into the neighborhood. Delaware is a little wider there, and parking is only allowed on one side, so traffic through there isn't as much of a problem as it could be. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: Townsend on October 10, 2007, 11:34:51 am Anybody else note the street conditions on Harvard in the 50's?
That was when the River dredging plan was called off if I've been told right. If that's true, it looks like we really are doomed to repeat it. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: patric on October 10, 2007, 01:30:26 pm Wow, neat pictures.
There's a single incandescent streetlight in each of those photos. How did we survive?[;)] Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: USRufnex on October 10, 2007, 03:03:36 pm Well, while growing up in Tulsa back in the day, we always thought 11th and 21st were "through-streets," while 15th was always more of a secondary road...
Don't know if that's too simplistic an answer for ya. IMO, this notion is now outdated. And Townsend, ditto here. That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw that pic... Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: tulsa1603 on October 10, 2007, 03:32:35 pm quote: Thanks for the feedback. So regarding it being an outdated notion - is there any more traffic on that street now than there was in the 1960's? There hasn't been any major increase in residential or commercial density in the area. Most everything around there was already built by 1960. I will say that between Delaware and the BA, traffic can get hectic around rush hour, thus my reason for thinking on street parking would be limited in hours, much like it is on the other section of CHerry Street. Is there any more traffic on that section of 15th than the Utica/Peoria stretch? Is it outdated to have street parking on the Utica/Peoria section? How would the Utica/Peoria section feel if street parking were taken away? I think it would reduce the convenience and charm personally. Driving down main street in Jenks today, where they have on street parking, I felt like cars parked out front indicated life inside, and it also calmed traffic a bit. Without the cars, I imagine that the feeling would be quite a bit different and traffic speed would increase. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: YoungTulsan on October 10, 2007, 04:27:20 pm Population could be the same, but more people have cars now. Back in 1960, the family had one car. Now mom, dad, and both kids all have their own cars to go cavorting around town in. Highway and traffic planners only project that driving will continue to increase in the near future.
I still like the idea of many midtown streets converting from 4-lane roads to 3 lanes, or 3 lanes with parking though. Seems possible on certain streets as long as others can offset some of the traffic load. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: tulsa1603 on October 11, 2007, 08:39:53 am quote: I see your point about the number of cars... But as someone who lives near this particular stretch, I'd gladly take a little traffic snarl if it meant the area could actually have some restaurants or something... It's just so stagnant as it is. Businesses seems to come and go every year. Traffic from the neighborhoods near the area could be rerouted to 21st and 11th. I personally would still drive down 15th because I can't imagine that the traffic would be that much worse. My adopted home of Austin has a few areas like this, where there is a mishmash of architecture - old houses and duplexes that have been converted along with random commercial strucutres - and they have redeveloped into much more pedestrian friendly areas. A trendy restaurant or two, plus a few offices kind of like Boston Avenue between 15th and 18th (another street with on-street parking during off-peak traffic times). I think it would be a big win for Renaissance and Florence Park. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: tulsa1603 on October 11, 2007, 09:10:29 am Ok, this thought must be my new obsession. [}:)]
I compared traffic counts on INCOG's website. 15th just west of Harvard = 15,900 cars in 2005 15th just west of Utica = 13,900 cars in 2005 So we have slightly more....So 2,000 cars more per day...that's 100 more per hour or 2 more per minute? Maybe not a fair assessment since traffice at night is almost non-existant. In 2004, they had almost identical counts at those same locations. IN 2000 both locations had a huge spike, but I think that's because they had 21st street torn up to repave at that time IIRC. And keep in mind, The Harvard intersection has left turn lanes which would help if they did revert to an on-street parking situation on 15th. 15th at Delaware - 13,000 cars in 2005. There isn't a similar situation on 15th between Utica and Peoria, though oddly enough, there is only a 6,800 car count on 15th just east of Peoria - I find this number a little hard to believe. Maybe the intersection of 15th and Delaware could be modified a bit to include a left turn lane. In the mornings there is lots of TU traffic coming in from the BA, and always quite a bit of backup. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: Conan71 on October 11, 2007, 11:08:11 am quote: Something tells me they must've dropped curb-side parking along 15th between Lewis & Harvard when the BA came through. It is an odd mish-mash of shops and the buildings are getting a little run-down, though I think it adds some character. You are correct that morning and evening rush can get a little congested at least to Delaware. On days when I drive home for lunch, noon time traffic isn't too bad. I love the area since it is very walkable. I'm missing my evening walks since I jacked up my knee. I think my dog is missing it even worse. Title: 15th Street Thoughts Post by: RecycleMichael on October 11, 2007, 11:24:02 am Quote Originally posted by Conan71 I love the area since it is very walkable. I'm missing my evening walks since I jacked up my knee. I think my dog is missing it even worse./quote] No excuse. Get a wagon and have the dog pull you. |