The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I am noticing some of what appear to be subliminal efforts to sway opinion about the river.

The river south of Zink Dam, which has been filled to the brims all summer long thanks to our highly rainy spring and summer, has now been let to go dry.  Which seems weird looking at it today, after we just had what seemed like a tropical storm over town yesterday (and more rain north of us the last few days).  Are they purposely not releasing enough water to fill the river despite the fact that water is plentiful right now?

The last few days I've noticed people on kayaks in Zink Lake.  I go up and down the river every day, and for some reason I've never noticed people in kayaks until Monday.  I dont think they were out in yesterday's storm, but they were back today.  Are they trying to give us an impression of "People using the river for recreation?"  The people I saw out there today were just sitting in the boats not doing much, as if they were MADE to go out there.  Again, am I just paranoid?

Then there is the issue of the trail "improvements".  I'm not sure if this goes in favor or against the river tax, but they saw fit to hurry up and tear out the river trail from 31st to 21st before the vote.  I'm not sure if that will say to people "Hey, look, progress on the river without the tax!" - or we are supposed to think "Hey, that sure looks like hell.  We need a river tax to get all this fixed up!" - But it did seem odd that they hurried out there last week to tear the trail out.

Running the river dry, sending kayakers out into Zink Lake, and tearing out the river trail all in the 2 weeks before the election.  Kind of makes me wonder just a little bit.

I wouldn't say you are paranoid....

The things you have seen.. more than likely have a logical explanation.

The point to consider is that you do not trust these individuals that are the proponents of the "River Tax".....

And that speaks volumes about the individuals that are pushing this tax.


Enough psychoanalysis ....

When I first moved back here in the 80's there was one of those rowing team boats that I would see from time to time...

What I saw today that was remarkable.... A person in my neighborhood had placed a "No River Tax" sign in their yard.

A few hours later along comes this old dude with what looked to be a home made sign that read...

Vote No On All Taxes"

he drove it in the ground right next to the other one...

Makes me wonder what he saw...! [:O]

You're on to something so you need to look this way....

(http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6333/meninblackku4.jpg)

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Originally posted by Rowdy

You're on to something so you need to look this way....

(http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6333/meninblackku4.jpg)

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yeah, these guys will be visiting voting officials everywhere next tuesday.

Rico is right about one thing. There is a general distrust of politicians and government. But that's not a new phenomena.

As far as the rest you can relax. Keystone is at normal level and the demand for electricity has not been high. So, no releases. Even with the short rain that would take a couple days to register. Typical for this time of year. Don't take my word check the Corps website for historical river levels.

The kayaks? Thats a funny thing. I am a member of a group that kayaks on area lakes and rivers. I am always too busy working to join them but each Wednesday they choose a different location to kayak in the evening. This week it was Zink Lake. Since there isn't much water flow, I'm sure they did a lot of sitting and enjoying the views which are spectacular in the evening.

I don't know for sure about the work on the paths. I think it is donated money, but they have been working along that stretch all summer long. Either removing trees, working on the bridge or the storm sewers. Wouldn't blame them if they did try to engineer some interest though.

Did you see the image of the Virgin Mary in the sand bars too?[:P]

What were the kayakers doing on Monday? (Yeah, kayaking, I know :D)

The trails are donated money, but donated George Kaiser money.  Yes it will proceed no matter what.  Seemed funny for them to rip out the trail last week though.

Wow, they are pulling out all the stops.

But, we have to ask ourselves, how many people kayak in our area? How many even own one?

last but not least.... who wants to get in that water? [xx(]

Let's see, they have commercials with cute kids who will just be graduating or in high school when the tax is over. So they don't have to worry much about how much that extra half cent will cost them.

Senior citizens have been told it won't cost them anything.

They are making promises that they know they can't keep without yet another tax to Sand Spring s and Bixby.

You should be afraid.

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Originally posted by Sangria

Wow, they are pulling out all the stops.

But, we have to ask ourselves, how many people kayak in our area? How many even own one?

last but not least.... who wants to get in that water? [xx(]

Let's see, they have commercials with cute kids who will just be graduating or in high school when the tax is over. So they don't have to worry much about how much that extra half cent will cost them.

Senior citizens have been told it won't cost them anything.

They are making promises that they know they can't keep without yet another tax to Sand Spring s and Bixby.

You should be afraid.

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You should try education. Or maybe that scares you? Or at least getting out and enjoying life more. You're continuing anti-tax, anti-river diatribe reminds me of the results of cheap Sangria.

Rowing crews have been on that river and in that river since the low water dam was built. TU's rowing club uses it and has regattas there. Thousands of its members over the years would disagree with your assessment. But you're not interested in the facts. Kayaker clubs here probably number in the hundreds. Pretty good considering the river isn't dependable for a flow. It will dramatically increase along with other HPV's (human powered vehicles) should water be put in the river. The river is also well known in those circles around the country because of the Wave below PSO.

The rest of your post is just regular anti swill.

Worst thing my daughter (member of TRC crew) has had as a result of turning over in the river, being splashed by novice crews, etc. is one case of swimmer's ear which could have happened in our own pool at home.  

The Tulsa Wave is famous with kayakers across the nation. Build it they will come is all you NO VOTERS need to know.
YES on the River....and for that matter any tax which helps TULSA!
GO TULSA!

I'd love to row on the river.  It would be a blast -- that alone is worth voting "yes" for.  Rollerblading, biking, running, walking, fishing, canoeing, frisbee, volleyball, music, art, drink, food ...  The river offers something for everyone and will be even better with the improvements.  The tax is a small price to pay for such a huge return - improved quality of life.  

What is the big deal with building on the river. There are already buildings on the river. Go to anyone of them go inside and see if you can even see the river. I can tell you no you can't. If you can it is to only minor degree. Dismiss this and what do you have left?  Recreation on the water? I'm not taking my family out on that water. Yek!

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Originally posted by citizen72

What is the big deal with building on the river. There is already buildings on the river. Go to anyone of them go inside and see if you can even see the river. I can tell you no you can't. If you can it is to only minor degree. Dismiss this and what do you have left?  Recreation on the water? I'm not taking my family out on that water. Yek!

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How can you say such things? At least three high rise towers with gorgeous views of the sun setting with the river in the foreground. University Club, City Plaza, and Liberty Towers come to mind. Lots of office buildings including the city hall for heaven's sake. Several neighborhoods sitting on hillsides with lovely views, Riverview, Indian Hills, Brady. Hundreds of apartments on both sides of the river. Where are you from anyway?!

As far as water quality you're way off base there too. The rowing crew has been operating on the river for 27 years. You ever actually been on the river? Get out of your car and start actually enjoying your city.

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Originally posted by citizen72

What is the big deal with building on the river. There are already buildings on the river. Go to anyone of them go inside and see if you can even see the river. I can tell you no you can't. If you can it is to only minor degree. Dismiss this and what do you have left?  Recreation on the water? I'm not taking my family out on that water. Yek!

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You can't see it in some areas because the underbrush is what is currently stqabilizing the shoreline. When the tax passes, money will be spen on better stabilization and the underbrush can be removed.

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Originally posted by waterboy

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Originally posted by citizen72
What is the big deal with building on the river. There is already buildings on the river. Go to anyone of them go inside and see if you can even see the river. I can tell you no you can't. If you can it is to only minor degree. Dismiss this and what do you have left?  Recreation on the water? I'm not taking my family out on that water. Yek!

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How can you say such things? At least three high rise towers with gorgeous views of the sun setting with the river in the foreground. University Club, City Plaza, and Liberty Towers come to mind. Lots of office buildings including the city hall for heaven's sake. Several neighborhoods sitting on hillsides with lovely views, Riverview, Indian Hills, Brady. Hundreds of apartments on both sides of the river. Where are you from anyway?!

As far as water quality you're way off base there too. The rowing crew has been operating on the river for 27 years. You ever actually been on the river? Get out of your car and start actually enjoying your city.

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I used to work on the fifteenth floor of an office building. I can tell you after a few weeks or even months that beautiful view is not worth very much. Why? Because you get used to it and in fact you don't really even see it anymore. That is why I discounted the apartment towers. I was talking about the real money makers in this scheme of things, the low rise casual user that sees the view of the river entertaining. As such, as with the Branson Landing, and them saying they are going to build a 500 million dollar complex on the river, leaves me wanting. Only a very small portion of that big old project is going to directly relate to the river in any meaningful way.

   As for the quality of the river I offer this. Not too long ago I got talked into going down on the river bars to do some sand searching for arifacts. More than once we discovered things on the sand that we found to be unresolved sewage items. We didn't stay that long. I do not believe  the river is as clean as it should be if we are going to have recreation on the water.

Even at that are my wife and I going to vote yes for the infrastructure development? We have decided we will because it might prove worthwhile even with the negatives discussed here.

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Originally posted by citizen72

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Originally posted by waterboy

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Originally posted by citizen72
What is the big deal with building on the river. There is already buildings on the river. Go to anyone of them go inside and see if you can even see the river. I can tell you no you can't. If you can it is to only minor degree. Dismiss this and what do you have left?  Recreation on the water? I'm not taking my family out on that water. Yek!

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How can you say such things? At least three high rise towers with gorgeous views of the sun setting with the river in the foreground. University Club, City Plaza, and Liberty Towers come to mind. Lots of office buildings including the city hall for heaven's sake. Several neighborhoods sitting on hillsides with lovely views, Riverview, Indian Hills, Brady. Hundreds of apartments on both sides of the river. Where are you from anyway?!

As far as water quality you're way off base there too. The rowing crew has been operating on the river for 27 years. You ever actually been on the river? Get out of your car and start actually enjoying your city.

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I used to work on the fifteenth floor of an office building. I can tell you after a few weeks or even months that beautiful view is not worth very much. Why? Because you get used to it and in fact you don't really even see it anymore. That is why I discounted the apartment towers. I was talking about the real money makers in this scheme of things, the low rise casual user that sees the view of the river entertaining. As such, as with the Branson Landing, and them saying they are going to build a 500 million dollar complex on the river, leaves me wanting. Only a very small portion of that big old project is going to directly relate to the river in any meaningful way.

   As for the quality of the river I offer this. Not too long ago I got talked into going down on the river bars to do some sand searching for arifacts. More than once we discovered things on the sand that we found to be unresolved sewage items. We didn't stay that long. I do not believe  the river is as clean as it should be if we are going to have recreation on the water.

Even at that are my wife and I going to vote yes for the infrastructure development? We have decided we will because it might prove worthwhile even with the negatives discussed here.

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Its true enough that everyone becomes accustomed to their surroundings. I have family in California who never go to or care to see the ocean side.

What part of the river did you walk on the sand bars? That would make a difference, but many times animal scat is mistaken or transients and fishermen just toss their business in upstream. There are always nasty people to deal with in nature.

Yes a lot of it is about perception. How the city is perceived, how visitors perceive it etc. People like to gather and mingle in areas where there is a view, an open space to look out on. The Jenks Riverwalk for example, those famous Steps in Rome, the hillside of the Sacre Coeur. Plus they like being near water, whether its a lake, river, stream, or fountain. The development on the West side of the river in Tulsa will not only have a great space to look out over but a great view of downtown, not only for anyone living there, but for people visiting, dining, shopping or just going for a stroll and people watching. Its psychology and feelings, a sense of place.

 Perhaps its because we dont currently have a really good example of that here that causes people to not really "get it".

I have seen some people look at a pic in a magazine or some design show and like the way a room is. They then go and try to create that look and feel on their own. They often fall short and wonder whats wrong. On the one hand they know what they like when they see it, but they dont know how to get there. As an artist I can point out where they went wrong. They thought they liked the room "or place" because of this and that reason, but they often get it all wrong. They often dont know what it is they are really liking and dont know how to create that attractive sense of place and feeling.  

When you go to other cities and see the places where people tend to gather, there are reasons why people gather and like to go to certain places, or not go, even if the people there cant always tell you why.

Course there are some people that are completely devoid of any sense of anything like that at all, and they could care less lol.

Just for the record, on the eve of the vote..  I've posted lots of skepticism and doubt about the plan, but in the end I'm hoping it passes.  Nothing is ever going to get done if we always have an excuse against progress.  There will never be a perfect plan, and rich people will always be involved.  I'm going to put some faith that Kaiser is actually serious when he says the private donors will be making sure all of the money is being spent wisely.  I know if I donated $100 million to a cause, I'd be interested in them actually using it correctly.  Maybe I'm too young to feel personally burned by plans in the past, but I'd rather just give this one a chance than to stagnate for another 5, 10, or infinity years.

If passed, it will probably look like the public money didn't accomplish too much.  The private money will accomplish a lot though.  Of course the private donors want the visible stuff with results that people see directly to be linked to them.  If a small tax gets those private dollars flowing (not just the donations but also the development to come) then it is something that is long overdue.

And maybe by paying a tax to benefit river development will encourage the suburbanites to discover that Tulsa does exist beyond 71st and Memorial.  Midtown is already nice without new development, but there is a whole segment of suburbanites who seem to not know it exists or have a wrong impression of Tulsa outside of sprawl-ville.