The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

(http://www.tulsanow.org/forumpics/tribuneii.jpg)

American residential group plans to add on to the tribune lofts for more residential space. This building would be just west of the existing one, which is pictured in the background.

Estimated Cost: $5M
Location: Boston & Archer


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Looks like another pitch for some downtown taxpayer funded pork is coming. We need more government subsidized luxury housing downtown to revitalize downtown. I wonder if these projects will be part of the package to build the ballpark downtown that the taxpayers will soon be asked to fund.

Double A, what would count as good news?

Business Comes:  the jobs all suck/corporate welfare

Development: I'm sure its publicaly subsidized

Events in Town: but they weren't where we wanted them/I hate the arena/they were publicly subsodized

Anything Political:  I hate Wal-Mart, the economy sucks, the government is stupid

There, I think I commented on 90% of the threads for the next 2 weeks for you. You posted negatively knowing NOTHING about the project except someone wants to build a nice looking building downtown.  What did this contribute?  Nothing, except an increase in the number of people who are starting to view you as nothing but a negative voice that no longer bothers to care what he is negative about or if it is founded.  Nay, Nay I say!

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

 Nothing, except an increase in the number of people who are starting to view you as nothing but a negative voice that no longer bothers to care what he is negative about or if it is founded.  Nay, Nay I say!

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Also a socialist.  Nobody likes socialists.

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Originally posted by Double A

Looks like another pitch for some downtown taxpayer funded pork is coming. We need more government subsidized luxury housing downtown to revitalize downtown. I wonder if these projects will be part of the package to build the ballpark downtown that the taxpayers will soon be asked to fund.

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Don't know about a ballpark, but that came out of left field. They are building a small expansion to a building on property they already own.

Remind me to picket if I find out you're putting a deck in your backyard.

I got it from the pages of the Whirled, so being out of left field is an accurate description. Do you read the sports section of the Whirled. They had a big article that was really a thinly veiled politcal editorial saying there would be a package for a downtown ballpark before the city council in the upcoming months and to urge their Councilors to support it. I would welcome your protest because, unlike most on this board, I believe free exchange of thought, freedom of expression, and the clash of ideas is the sound of freedom. It is music to my ears.

This sounds like private funds by private developers, I wouldn't read anything more into it.

Personally, it is getting old being asked for more projects when we don't take care of what our parents paid for 30 years ago.

No more publicly funded packages to replace perfectly functional existing facilities until they fix our delapitated roads.  

They can build all the new stuff they want in the way of ballparks, arenas, rivers, etc, but if the ruts are too deep in the roads to get there, I'm staying home!

The credit card is maxed out and they still want to keep spending. That is responsible government. Instant gratification over fiscal responsibility.

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Originally posted by Admin

(http://www.tulsanow.org/forumpics/tribuneii.jpg)

American residential group plans to add on to the tribune lofts for more residential space. This building would be just west of the existing one, which is pictured in the background.

Estimated Cost: $5M
Location: Boston & Archer

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From the rendering, it appears the new structure would be north of the existing structure, not east

Man, we are directional impaired lately.  I think we need to remember that the Brady district is part of downtown, which is not oriented on compass.  It is angled so it gets a bit confusing.

As you look at this building from the frontage street, there is a road to the right (North east) that goes to the Center of the Universe/Union Depot.  So any additional construction would have to be to the Right of the building - where there happens to be an empty lot.

Thank you Google Earth.

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Originally posted by Oil Capital

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Originally posted by Admin

(http://www.tulsanow.org/forumpics/tribuneii.jpg)

American residential group plans to add on to the tribune lofts for more residential space. This building would be just west of the existing one, which is pictured in the background.

Estimated Cost: $5M
Location: Boston & Archer

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From the rendering, it appears the new structure would be north of the existing structure, not east

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Actually, to correct myself, I think it's west.

Yep, its on the west. North would go into the middle of Archer.

Bring it! Looks great, no reason to be grumpy about building in an empty parking lot.

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Originally posted by carltonplace

Yep, its on the west. North would go into the middle of Archer.

Bring it! Looks great, no reason to be grumpy about building in an empty parking lot.

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As long as they aren't reaching into my already stretched thin pockets to do it, I fully support it. Wages aren't keeping up with all these tax increases.

Looks promising.

Can you live at the Tribune Lofts if you have children, or is it just for single white guys?

Just axing...

Wonderful project.  I had heard about some time ago so I'm wondering if this is just an announcement for a project that they are waiting around for the right timing.  I hope this is going up soon.  It will add nicely to the Brady.  

Downtown isn't yet suited for kids...no good parks, very little for families to walk to yet, not enough family services around (in my mind: bakery, grocery, convenience store...).  Just south of downtown is wonderful for kids, great elementary school.

I agree downtown isn't for kids. I think "family-minded" people would be more apt to buy apartments and lofts than rent, which is the majority of the options.

Does anybody know what the demographics of the current population are? What is the current make up of people living downtown? What are the ages and income levels of our current downtown dwellers(besides the homeless and the residents at  the DLM)?

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Originally posted by OurTulsa

Wonderful project.  I had heard about some time ago so I'm wondering if this is just an announcement for a project that they are waiting around for the right timing.  I hope this is going up soon.  It will add nicely to the Brady.  

Downtown isn't yet suited for kids...no good parks, very little for families to walk to yet, not enough family services around (in my mind: bakery, grocery, convenience store...).  Just south of downtown is wonderful for kids, great elementary school.

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Adults need all the above services regardless of whether they have kids.  So there must be something else that doesn't suit downtown to kids.  I don't think my kid has ever been to the a bakery. Tulsan's have to get over this suburban mentality.

Sgrizzle:  They have kids in N.Y., Chicago, L.A. San Fran, Paris, London, Hong Kong, Manila, Tokyo, Sydney, Caracas...

Yea, not sure if a bakery is it, but I think wider sidewalks, parks for kids, etc are more important.

Lack of the basics will keep families, and kids, away. One would assume kids won't move downtown by themselves.

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Originally posted by Conan71

...Personally, it is getting old being asked for more projects when we don't take care of what our parents paid for 30 years ago...

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That is the sentence that I ponder, too.  I think I know what voters and policymakers are trying to achieve.  They are hoping that they can catapult Tulsa forward in a new way that solves all of our problems: new residents, businesses, shoppers, students, etc.  It's a long shot, but it's a more palatable choice than facing up to our previous mistakes...i.e., doubling our taxes just to make Tulsa "average" again.  To tell you the truth, the long odds sound pretty good to me, too.

One reason is because I think it's possible.  Other cities are continually reinventing themselves, and it's working for them.  For instance, our neighbor Kansas City is repopulating it's core and it's working.  They've added about 30,000 new residents around the city center in just the past few years.  There's a new vitality there.

Tulsa's arena was a "miss" in my opinion, so was the Channels, but I think other ideas, big and small, could be right on target.  Downtown residential is one of those ideas.  I think Double A is upset because this one's exclusively upscale.  That bothers me, too.  We should create some diversity for students and families of various incomes...perhaps that's where the subsidy comes in.

Anyways, I think it's fine to complain about the condition of the infrastructure in this town, but there are only two ways out at this point:  grow the city or raise taxes.

Some of you conservative types will continue to advocate "trimming the fat", and that's nice rhetoric and all, but it's not realistic.  We've already cut too many corners and it's finally caught up with us.  I see beat up streets and overgrown parks and I think we're scratching and skimping too much already.  A few more years of this and we'll be looking very dumpy.

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Originally posted by inteller

that clock thing on the top is useless.  universities still put them on buildings and it makes them look like they are stuck in the past.

i'm for this as long as it is privately funded.  this gets rid of one more surface lot and builds more demand for parking decks.

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You know inteller, I see your name on a thread and you never disappoint.

Is the possibility of ARG working with the new downtown Wal-Mart development going to derail this project?

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Originally posted by ttown_jeff


Sgrizzle:  They have kids in N.Y., Chicago, L.A. San Fran, Paris, London, Hong Kong, Manila, Tokyo, Sydney, Caracas...

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And you can BUY apartments in those places..

I agree with all my advesaries on this board and add that if we have many daze like today we will need a dome over downtown just to breath.[:[:(!][xx(]

We don't have kids, but we're animal people.  If there were safe places for my girl to walk our dog and my cats got the thumbs up, then we would be serious about living downtown. Especially if there were options to buy.

The current Lofts are about to be sold as condos. Any day now from what I hear. I think that's a good call for them and for the area. Let people actually own a piece of downtown. Once that happens I think we'll see a lot more interest in making it a more "well rounded" place to live.

I have a (fairly short) list of things I want available before I move downtown. Affordable downtown ownership is #1.

I thought some apartments in the complex that includes the giant yellow phallic building were condos?  Or maybe you are not considering that really downtown.

Either way, I agree.  Ownership is a HUGE incentive to care about the neighborhood.  Its both a commitment and an indication of goings going on.  If Condo sales are skyrocketing we will see more go in.

Central Park (the towers) are condos but not very central.

Cannon Fodder is referring to University Club Tower (The Hypodermic Needle) which is in "uptown"

Just drove that area.  
Put the car in 4WD and only busted one drive axle.  

I recommend driving on the sidewalk when down town!  Just watch out for dog poop.

So... anybody know what's up with the Tribune Lofts expansion?  Is this another dead project?

If they have decided to get out of renting and try and turn the old lofts into condos, yet are having a hard time selling them as such, I figure they are thinking twice about building more. So yea, I would say the expansion is a no go until the area picks up more.

If these are being sold, I would like to know who to contact to purchase one.  If anyone knows please post.

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Originally posted by TheArtist

If they have decided to get out of renting and try and turn the old lofts into condos, yet are having a hard time selling them as such, I figure they are thinking twice about building more. So yea, I would say the expansion is a no go until the area picks up more.

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You are correct sir!  But now they can't get anyone to buy them either and is looking on going down in price.  Last I heard they were looking at marketing firms to do some expensive sales materials for relocation companies and realtor groups.

They are indeed very nice, but honestly, everyone that gets released from jail on the "new day program" just walks over and hangs out on the corner across the street until they get drunk enough to get in a fight and go back to jail.

http://www.journalrecord.com/print.htm?recID=83944

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ARG to transform Tulsa’s Tribune Lofts into for-sale condominiums

November 28, 2007

TULSA – American Residential Group intends to transform the Tribune Lofts apartment complex into for-sale condominiums.
That marks a major shift for what many analysts called a “trailblazer” project. When launched in late 2001, this Brady District development was one of the first modern efforts to jumpstart residential living in downtown Tulsa.
“This is actually something I think has been a long time coming for the Tulsa market,” said Raymond W. Lord, a principal and partner with NAI Commercial Properties of Tulsa. “I think it’s a neat direction; I really do. I think obviously we’re going to see a lot more of it.”
Although ARG officials could not be reached for official comment, real estate analysts confirmed the move. The Tribune property offers 35 lofts over six floors immediately north of the railroad tracks, the units ranging from 704 to 2,288 square feet.
David Z. Forrest, the Tulsa multifamily broker for CB Richard Ellis of Oklahoma, said the change casts no negative reflections on the difficulties in cracking the downtown residential market, but an effort to maximize ARG’s investment in the property.
“That’s the only reason anybody does that,” said Forrest. “That allows them to make the most dollars in the way they want to make those dollars.”
Aaron Hargrove, the Tulsa market multifamily specialist for Commercial Realty Resources Co., suggested condo sales also would provide a higher return for that property than selling it as an apartment complex, even one like the Tribune Lofts that had operated with a waiting list for several years.
“It’s not easy managing a small apartment complex,” said Hargrove. “As a management company, you would be much more interested in running a 230-unit apartment complex as opposed to a 35-unit apartment complex. That may influence their thinking on the project.
“The guys that own that are smart and successful businessmen,” he said. “I don’t know if they’ve ever, that I’ve seen, made a bad decision.”
The ARG move follows successful efforts by The Philtower LLC to convert floors 12-20 of The Philtower into condominiums, which the group completed and sold in less than a year. It also would act in advance of apartment and loft projects coming online over the next two years at the Sager Building and the Mayo Hotel.
Lord said moving now will give ARG a strong head-start in competition with these projects.
While ARG continues to lease units at Tribune Lofts, officials said the company’s intention is to turn all units into condos. The Tulsa company started accepting $5,000 deposits toward loft purchases earlier this month. No sales have been finalized.
Leaseholders have been offered purchase agreements, officials said, adding that existing contracts allow ARG to terminate a lease if a prospective owner makes a deposit on that loft.
Six of the Tribune units are now available, with another four becoming available later this month, according to www.argtulsa.com. Four lofts are leased, leaving the rest occupied.
Officials said the majority of those represent month-by-month leases.
Not all analysts looked at the project optimistically. Kent Morlan, owner of the two Central Park condominium complexes in downtown Tulsa, said the market remains soft and unfriendly to many lifestyles, with difficulties ranging from school options to parking.
“I think it’s going to be a tough sell,” he said. “The condo concept is not particularly popular in Oklahoma.”
Built in 1924 by Charles Page, the building at Archer and Boston avenues was home to The Tulsa Tribune evening newspaper from January 1925 to 1942. It then passed from a moving and storage company to serving as a mission and shelter for homeless men. It remained largely abandoned from 1971 until American Residential Group rehabilitated the structure using about $700,000 “third penny” tax funds, its efforts completed in the fall of 2001.
The refurbishing upgraded and modernized the brick façade. While no two units mirror each other, the lofts feature polished concrete floors and brick walls in their open floor plan designs, with fans hanging from ceiling heights of 10 to 14 feet.
The Tribune Lofts also provide adjacent controlled access covered parking, with the Boston Avenue Pedestrian Bridge providing walkers direct access to downtown.
Morlan suggested national credit crunch fears could create a problem for condo sales, although he admitted that could be offset by the impact of rising fuel prices.
“People may start looking at downtown as a place to live if gasoline prices keep going up,” he said.
But Lord suggested that ARG, with assets in other markets, identified a trend it could apply in Tulsa.
“What we see in Tulsa tends to lag the rest of the country, the rest of the world, by years,” he said. “It’s time for Tulsa now. It’s kind of coming onto its own timing.”
Copyright © 2007 The Journal Record All Rights Reserved
101 N. Robinson Ave., Ste. 101, Oklahoma City, OK, 73102 |
P.O. Box 26370, Oklahoma City, OK, 73126-0370 | (405) 235-3100
415 S. Boston Ave., Ste. 101, Tulsa, OK 74103 | (918) 295-0098

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That sounds very good..

Glad someone had a chance to read the news today.

[:)]

Good news that we're going to get some housing available for purchase downtown.  (I'm pretty sure they got it wrong in the story about the Philtower; those are still rental, are they not?)

Does anyone have any pricing information?

Yeah right, OC.  /sarcasm

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Originally posted by Rico

Something possibly worthy of mention on the change in "marketing strategy'.....

That is: For Sale rather than For Rent or Lease...

There are several Corporations that transfer individuals to the Tulsa area for a set period of time.

When Texaco was in Tulsa they purchased several of the units at Liberty Towers for just this sort of thing...

I won't be surprised if some of the units are... or have already been purchased for this sort of future use....

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Very true.  I know of at least one unit at Philtower that is leased by a corporation for that purpose.

Any new info on this project?  Are units currently for sale as condos?  If so, any pricing info out there?

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Originally posted by CoffeeBean

Any new info on this project?  Are units currently for sale as condos?  If so, any pricing info out there?

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Contact ARG  http://www.argtulsa.com/  
From what I hear they are desperate for anyone to show interest!

Could probably name your price at this point!

Good luck.

There's an ad in this week's Urban Tulsa. I believe it said the prices start at around $90k.

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Originally posted by TheTed

There's an ad in this week's Urban Tulsa. I believe it said the prices start at around $90k.

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Wow!  That's a hundred thousand less than the original target price!  Does that include a parking space?

Anyone know what the status is on Tribune II?

I was in the Brady for the 5x5 sale and there wasn't so much as a sign indicated they are thinking about maybe starting a project.

It looks like they have made some progress as far as selling units:
http://tribunelofts.com/sales.htm

Does that mean it is 63% occupied, or that 63% are sold (70% with pending)?  That is to say, are the other units rented or just empty?

Also, that has no information on Tribune II.  Is that project on tract when Tribune I is fully occupied?  I kinda of assume it's yet another Tulsa project that is dead.

The prices aren't bad at all for the location and amenities.  If I worked downtown and didn't have kids, I'd have to seriously consider it.   BUT, like other's have pointed out the area is somewhat gutted (John 3:16 and jail issues again).  Bah, just hard to say.

Guess I'm disappointed that Tulsa doesn't seem to embrace the Condo concept that has made the Westport/Plaza area of Kansas City or the Downtown Area of Des Moines a lively place to be.   This is the pot talking, but still...

Wow, 90k! That's super cheap.. What's the square footage? At that price, I'm surprised more property investors aren't going after these units to rent out to TU students or something.

Condo Conversion Put on Hold Indefinitely (http://"http://tribunelofts.com/status.htm")

 

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American Residential Group would like to thank everyone who has shown an interest in the Condo Conversion at the Tribune Lofts.  However, American Residential Group has decided to take the Tribune Lofts off the market indefinitely.  When American Residential Group started the Condo Conversion project we could not have anticipated the economic impact that the housing crunch would have on both Tulsa and the United States.  While we are truly optimistic about the Downtown Tulsa market, we know that timing is everything and the timing is just not right at this point for this Condo Conversion.  Therefore, until some of the Downtown Tulsa attractions and upcoming projects have progressed, we feel it is time to take the Tribune Lofts off the market.  We appreciate the interest that everyone has shown in the Condo Conversion of the Tribune Lofts.  With this in mind, American Residential Group is planning to re-evaluate the Condo Conversion and the Downtown Market in 2009.  We will maintain records on all potential buyers should we proceed with the conversion in the future.  Until then, all vacant units are now available for lease.

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Real pity.

So I take it this means the expansion building is also off.

Yet another great example of why you should ignore all development announcements in Tulsa until they actually happen.  I'd say there is a 66% failure rate of announced projects.

Also, why not lease the units out AND offer them for sale?

I have to believe that a major issue for the developer has nothing to do with demand but with the inability of interested buyers to get financing for condo's. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have both significantly tightened the requirements on condo financing... to the point that it is almost impossible. FNM and FRE have lost so much money on big condo developments in Fla, Nev, Cal, and others that their lending requirements make it very difficult to obtain financing. As an example, they require that a minimum number of the units already be sold and owner occupied (51% to be exact and no investor owned), no developer owned, no "high rise", and high down payments (generally 20% or more). This is before they apply the normal underwritng requirements to the individual buyer. The biggest hurdle is the 51% sold requirement....which basically means that a developer has to be able to sell over half of the units to cash buyers or those that have financing available outside FNM or FRE. What my wife and I found when we were buying one of the MetroLoft units was that virtually no bank is going to make a mortgage unless it is FNM or FRE conforming. We got lucky (?) to be able to get financing because our development was small and we bought the last unit but, I was surprised at how difficult it was to do a 75% LTV, 30 year fixed loan with a 775+ FICO score.

The tightening credit standards are making it a lot harder to be succesful in developing these types of projects.....

I just think the timing is not right yet either. That area has a lot of potential and we will see some progress here in the next few years, but the Tribune Tower is still isolated and the area around it kind of, well a sea of parking and abandoned buildings. The Matthews warehouse conversion, the property across from that purchased by Kaiser will be redeveloped in a few years. Possibly a new baseball stadium and developments with that, and some other things I have heard rumors about, will in the next couple of years get that area of town anchored and moving to the point that it will be much more attractive for people to live there.  I bet in about 3 years we will see something happen with this. Its just not quite there yet as an attractive, bustling, lively, place to live. I wouldnt want to live there yet.

bokworker nailed it.  This is not a marketing failure so much as a financing failure brought on by the subprime bust.

Update on this project in the Tulsa World

Link to the Article (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090224_11_A4_Anarti89396")

Authority OKs $4 million loan for second loft project
The Tulsa Development Authority approved a request Monday to recycle $4 million in 1996 sales tax funds for a companion project to the Tribune Lofts.
The 3-2 vote came despite questions over the process used to redistribute the public funds to American Residential Group for more residential units downtown.

"I think we've cut off our nose to spite our face," Julius Pegues, an authority member who cast one of the "no" votes, said after the special meeting Monday.

"We are not going to revitalize the downtown with high-end housing. We need affordable housing," he said.

American Residential proposes to build Tribune Lofts II at Archer and Main streets, directly west of the Tribune Lofts. The project would include 63 rental units and a parking garage that would service both it and the Tribune Lofts, which has 35 units.

Pegues said he also has concerns about the "process and lack of openness" regarding the reallocation of the funds.

"There were no requests for proposals presented," he said. "Other developers who wanted to do development housing downtown didn't get the opportunity to participate."

The other opposing vote was cast by Paula Bryant-Ellis, who said after the meeting that she has concerns about putting all of the funds into one project.

American Residential has a good project, but the money should be used to leverage several projects of all income developments, she said.


(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2009/20090224_TribuneLoftsII.jpg)

I agree with the concerns over openness, putting our eggs in one basket, and wanting a diversity of income... but am still excited to see this project inching forward.

Since I have lived in Tulsa I haven't seen a non-public building go UP in downtown Tulsa.

I think it's great.  I've looked forward to this development for years...I'm not looking to live there but I'd love to see something take up that space.

Parking Garage...holy crap.

Glad to see progress. This should fit in well with the plans other property owners have for Archer.

This is a joke!  Those monies were supposed to be re-invested in other downtown development.  To have put all of the funds back into the same developer while leaving the others out in the cold that at least have already spent the money on acquiring downtown property for re-development (i.e. the ONG Building ZigZag is a part of).

This is the same developer that tried unsuccessfully already to sell their Tribune I loft residences.  That was a failure on so many levels...the most identifiable being that the poor quality of improvements made it hard for anyone to fathom paying that much for a loft residence.  This is a company that began as a rental apartment developer and that was evident in the improvements they made to the loft units.

This developer has already failed and we are relying on them to perform with the next project?  What clearer evidence does one need than their inability to sell their Tribune I lofts as was expressed in their original business model?  "Okay, so we failed with this one, but give us another chance and we'll see if we can do it better...oh and forget those other guys down the street."

This is why Tulsa is considered among the hardest for outside developers to work or invest in.  This insider network that gets to take advantage of public tax monies that should have been spread around to create a synergy for re-development.  The TDA is not doing its job in looking out for the interest of all Tulsans...it simply does it for the select few.

The Tribune II land contract was already signed, independent of any financing package although assurances were made that the financing was in place already and available.  Now the project can not get under way for lack of funding unless TDA steps in with a $4 million no interest loan.  Those funds will now be tied up and spur no further economic growth for the next 10 years!  Way to go TDA in seeking to accomplish your mission of encouraging private economic investment and re-development in the area!

I certainly hope the ZigZag project is able to move forward now that this opportunity has been stripped away.

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Originally posted by DowntownNow

This is a joke!  Those monies were supposed to be re-invested in other downtown development.  To have put all of the funds back into the same developer while leaving the others out in the cold that at least have already spent the money on acquiring downtown property for re-development (i.e. the ONG Building ZigZag is a part of).

This is the same developer that tried unsuccessfully already to sell their Tribune I loft residences.  That was a failure on so many levels...the most identifiable being that the poor quality of improvements made it hard for anyone to fathom paying that much for a loft residence.  This is a company that began as a rental apartment developer and that was evident in the improvements they made to the loft units.

This developer has already failed and we are relying on them to perform with the next project?  What clearer evidence does one need than their inability to sell their Tribune I lofts as was expressed in their original business model?  "Okay, so we failed with this one, but give us another chance and we'll see if we can do it better...oh and forget those other guys down the street."

This is why Tulsa is considered among the hardest for outside developers to work or invest in.  This insider network that gets to take advantage of public tax monies that should have been spread around to create a synergy for re-development.  The TDA is not doing its job in looking out for the interest of all Tulsans...it simply does it for the select few.

The Tribune II land contract was already signed, independent of any financing package although assurances were made that the financing was in place already and available.  Now the project can not get under way for lack of funding unless TDA steps in with a $4 million no interest loan.  Those funds will now be tied up and spur no further economic growth for the next 10 years!  Way to go TDA in seeking to accomplish your mission of encouraging private economic investment and re-development in the area!

I certainly hope the ZigZag project is able to move forward now that this opportunity has been stripped away.

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Rather than just writing here, you should probably take the time to write TDA as well. That way, you know for a fact that they have gotten your opinion.

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Originally posted by DowntownNow

This is a joke!  Those monies were supposed to be re-invested in other downtown development.  To have put all of the funds back into the same developer while leaving the others out in the cold that at least have already spent the money on acquiring downtown property for re-development (i.e. the ONG Building ZigZag is a part of).

This is the same developer that tried unsuccessfully already to sell their Tribune I loft residences.  That was a failure on so many levels...the most identifiable being that the poor quality of improvements made it hard for anyone to fathom paying that much for a loft residence.  This is a company that began as a rental apartment developer and that was evident in the improvements they made to the loft units.

This developer has already failed and we are relying on them to perform with the next project?  What clearer evidence does one need than their inability to sell their Tribune I lofts as was expressed in their original business model?  "Okay, so we failed with this one, but give us another chance and we'll see if we can do it better...oh and forget those other guys down the street."

This is why Tulsa is considered among the hardest for outside developers to work or invest in.  This insider network that gets to take advantage of public tax monies that should have been spread around to create a synergy for re-development.  The TDA is not doing its job in looking out for the interest of all Tulsans...it simply does it for the select few.

The Tribune II land contract was already signed, independent of any financing package although assurances were made that the financing was in place already and available.  Now the project can not get under way for lack of funding unless TDA steps in with a $4 million no interest loan.  Those funds will now be tied up and spur no further economic growth for the next 10 years!  Way to go TDA in seeking to accomplish your mission of encouraging private economic investment and re-development in the area!

I certainly hope the ZigZag project is able to move forward now that this opportunity has been stripped away.

---

I thought Zigzag was going ahead all-private.

Not sure. Also not sure why they would name a company after rolling papers. Too much time at Oz/Starship?

(Just kidding)

Would have liked to have seen those funds divided out to help several developments. But at the same time, 63 units and a parking garage, probably equals several other projects. Plus its likely there are different ways to help other projects get going.  

This is a good project to help establish the Brady Arts/Greenwood area. I think focusing a good amount of attention to this area and really getting it established as a desirable, full fledged, functioning, mixed use, urban neighborhood, is a good thing. Its still going to take a few more things around the ballpark and a sprinkling of other projects (perhaps we can leverage some affordable housing there). But each one of these helps. Once you get this area established and functioning, it will grow outward from there without needing so much public help. Except for perhaps more affordable housing.  I am willing to bet, getting in a good chunk of more high end housing will only make it more likely that a developer will come in and build less expensive housing to compete. He can say, "Hey, I am in the same area and it costs less. Live here." But the area has to be seen as more desirable and moving along than it is now regardless. 5 years and 10 years will pass soon enough and by then hopefully we will be able to be genuinely concerned that there isnt enough affordable housing. Right now there isnt much in the way of housing period. And this wont be the only project during that 10 year time period in which we will likely get housing for different income levels.        

btw, What is this ONG building project?

ZigZag and others may not have known until recently that funding from TDA was available.  TDA has never fully come out and divulged that these funds were still available.  The funds procurred by developers under the Vision2025 funding package stipulated that the low or no interest loans were to be paid back within certain time periods for future lending on additional downtown development.  

While it may have been ZigZag's initial goal to do this all privately, once they learn that monies are available at no interest through TDA, the wise business man would want to take advantage of this for any benefit they might accrue.

By simply giving all $4 million that was available right back to the same developer that held $2 million already, it effectively freezes anyone else out of receiving even a portional benefit and also puts an unfair advantage in the hands of ARG, they do not have to pass on any additional interest expense to their end buyers that their competition would have to.  

I find it interesting that the two newest members to the TDA are the one's that voted in dissent of this measure, I am glad they did.  The others simply voted status quo in favor of a particular developer.

There also is an aire of favoritism in the sense that TDA has required full financial backing of some recent developers before entering into a contract and yet, ARG was allowed to enter and execute a contract last year without having financing in place to perform the project.

In these tough economic times where even commercial financing is hard to secure, any help or benefit that could be offered by an entity such as the TDA should have been made available to all potential parties.

The original Vision2025 funding program required a proforma, financials and allocated the original $9.3 million under an RFP process that met certain criteria.  There was no call for a new RFP among proposed re-development projects downtown.  

Already the Mayo Building renovation team has requested additional funds from TDA as well as adjustments to the first/second position mortgage terms of the lenders.  Now you have ARG, who already was provided funding for their two other projects, getting more of the pie.  At what point are other potential developers afforded the opportunity to partake of incentives or benefits of these programs that were set in place to encourage such endeavours?

Just another case of 'if you're not in the club, don't come begging."

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheArtist


btw, What is this ONG building project?

---

ONG Building and adjoining Property. North side of 7th Street from Main to Boston. Zigzag development is new owner and all existing tenants are on month-to-month leases and will likely be leaving Summer/Fall to begin conversion. Building is a very good candidate for residential because the design allows for a hallway to run down an exterior wall the entire length (East-West) so the apartments can be divided easily. The parking lot (the one directly south of the Centennial Green) will be replaced with a parking garage with the current hopes of a 1st floor retail/restaurant space opening onto the centennial green and additional residential above that wrapping the Garage.

That's all the preliminary information which often changes before the project actually happens, but that's what I know. An occasional forum poster here is part of the project and he is very much in tune with good design and preservation.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheArtist


btw, What is this ONG building project?

---

ONG Building and adjoining Property. North side of 7th Street from Main to Boston. Zigzag development is new owner and all existing tenants are on month-to-month leases and will likely be leaving Summer/Fall to begin conversion. Building is a very good candidate for residential because the design allows for a hallway to run down an exterior wall the entire length (East-West) so the apartments can be divided easily. The parking lot (the one directly south of the Centennial Green) will be replaced with a parking garage with the current hopes of a 1st floor retail/restaurant space opening onto the centennial green and additional residential above that wrapping the Garage.

That's all the preliminary information which often changes before the project actually happens, but that's what I know. An occasional forum poster here is part of the project and he is very much in tune with good design and preservation.

---

Oooh that sounds really nice.

Here is an article on the Zigzag development from the Journal Record dated Dec. 2008:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20081205/ai_n31113291


The more I learn about this new loan, the more I am disappointed.  Thanks for pointing it out DowntownNow.  Clearly the funds should have been divided somehow if there isn't anything else to the story.  I'd understand a 1-3 split in favor of new construction even, but something.

Nonetheless, I hope the ZigZag developers take this as a challenge and march forward to compete with the new lofts.  I really hope downtown takes off with all the new residential going on line soon.  Part of that will be to make sure displaced businesses stay downtown and new offices consider downtown as a location.  Live, work, play.

I couldn't picture the ONG building so I had to look it up.  Now I've got it.

(http://www.bestoftulsa.com/landmarks/ONGf1.jpg)

(http://www.bestoftulsa.com/landmarks/ongmap.gif)

That ONG project by ZigZag has to be a win-win for everyone involved.  They secured a building that has ancillary parking...thats a coup for a downtown redeveloper.  Now if they manage to put additional structured parking on there, its not only a revenue generator for the developer, but gives them way more than enough parking for their retail, any office and certainly their loft tenants and visitors.  

They have several things going for them - the parking they have should accomodate any residential as it is already, plus guests.  The way the building is designed makes the separation for loft residences almost perfect and the amount of natural light from the windows is great!  

TDA should have looked at some partnership, provide some of this funding for structured parking to help alleviate the parking fiasco in downtown's core.  I'm afraid TDA just cant think outside the box.

Go back and review the first page of this thread. Once again, I told you so.

I believe they are looking at 160 spaces so they will have plenty available to rent out.

I keep hearing that more and more developers that are already in the game or wanting to get into the game of downtown development are pissed at the way ARG got $4 million in no interest financing.  Several of them hsave said they should have been included in an RFP for funds that could have helped their already started project or helped kicked off new ones.  Cant say I blame them, seems ARG is getting a lot of help on this matter.  I also hear the City Council will be taking this up next week.  Time for TDA to be reformed and be made truly independent from the City.

ARG has financing, it's called stupidly high rent increases at their other properties. ;)

You want LESS oversight of TDA?

Really, you think that's the answer?

The TDA was always supposed to be an independent legal entity free from City authority and political push by City leaders.  Since the 80s it has become far less so.  So tied in with the City that HUD had to step in finally.  What I want is an independent authority thats responsible to the City Council in so far as the Council adopts an urban renewal plan and ensures TDA abides by it and the directives associated with it.  Having the City provide oversight is like asking the fox to guard the hen house.

And the plot thickens...the following article references the City Council Urban & Economic Development Committee meeting held this last Tuesday that started at 10:45AM - a lil late due to an extended Public Works meeting.  Last chance to see the replay on Ch24 TGOV is Monday starting about 9:00PM.

TDA $4 million loan draws fire
by: P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer
Sunday, March 29, 2009
3/29/2009 3:27:34 AM

The Tulsa Development Authority is under fire by some city councilors and local developers after it awarded a 10-year, interest-free $4 million loan with no competitive process.

"It really disturbs me that you guys predetermined how the $4 million would be recycled into the economy downtown," Councilor Bill Martinson said during a council committee meeting last week.

In February, the authority voted 3-2 to recycle $4 million in tax money back to American Residential Group for a companion project to its Tribune Lofts project, at Archer and Main streets.

"We have people actively engaged in trying to revitalize downtown Tulsa and they are not even given an opportunity to put these dollars to use," Martinson said.

During that meeting, a local developer said she was told by Authority Chairman Carl Bracy that a member of the mayor's office and other city officials presented the project as the viable one for downtown.

"In effect, (the authority) was to award the money to that project," Mayo Hotel developer Tori Snyder said she understood from Bracy.

Snyder and some other local developers are upset that they were not given the opportunity to vie for the $4 million in 1996 third-penny sales tax funds designated for downtown housing, which was originally awarded to American Residential Group through a bidding process.

American Residential's initial proposal suggested the funds be repaid to provide a perpetual fund for downtown housing, the city agreed and initiated such a policy.

Of the initial award, American Residential has repaid $2 million of the $4 million, with the other $2 million due in 2011.

Bracy, who was present at the council committee meeting with Snyder, did not dispute her comments. Instead, he told councilors that the authority wasn't legally required to competitively bid the funds and could have originally given it away and have nothing.

"I don't think we did anything wrong and inappropriate and that it was fair," Bracy said about the recent award process.

Martinson, who has been critical of the authority, said he and Bracy had a fundamental disagreement.

"I think when we are dealing with taxpayer dollars it needs to be as transparent as possible," he said.

Snyder said there are local developers who have been waiting for those funds to be available and didn't know they could just ask for it outside of a competitive process.

American Residential principal Jay Helm said on Saturday that his firm went to the authority with its financial proposal after it was awarded a contract on purchasing the property that did go through a bidding process.

The financing was discussed several times in the authority's meetings, which are open to the public. A majority of the members appeared not to support the request during those discussions. However, during February's special meeting, the request was approved in a split vote.

Mayor Kathy Taylor said Saturday she didn't direct TDA and has never directed TDA on what to do.

"My friendship with Jay (Helm) had nothing to do with him being awarded the property site for his development or the $4 million."

She said she knew there were plans for an addition to the Tribune, but that she knows about all of the economic development efforts.

Martinson said that the authority's desire to recycle the funds is admirable, "but I'm wondering to what extent they are really being recycled if they keep being recycled with the same developer."

Councilors Rick Westcott and Bill Christiansen also voiced concerns after they said they received several e-mails from local developers upset about the process.

Authority member Julius Pegues, one of the two votes against awarding the funds to American Residential, said the board is working to correct its procedures.

"Let's assume TDA erred in its process to distribute this money," he said.

He said the authority's goal is to prevent these type of issues from occurring in the future as it relates to proposals for available funding.

"We may have made mistakes here recently, but I don't think we made any that we can't correct," said Pegues, who was vocal about the lack of a competitive process.

The principals of American Residential, Jay Helm and Steve Ganzkow, both contributed to Mayor Kathy Taylor's campaign. Helm gave $5,000 and Ganzkow $2,000. Helm's daughter also was employed as Taylor's personal aide for about a year and left in the fall of 2007.

The award of the initial $4 million to American Residential occurred under former Mayor Bill LaFortune's term. Officials at that time said the group's payback clause played a significant role in getting the funds.

Several concerns I have over this:

• Lack of notice and a competitive process in awarding these large funds, essentially pubicly subsidizing a large portion of the overall investment of ONE project and not maximizing the potentials for downtown
• In the televised meeting, Martinson made reference to the contract between City and TDA allowing them to distribute those tax funds for downtown housing and that the contract may have expired in 2003 with no further extension

• Tori Snyder's claim that in a conversation with Chairman Carl Bracy, he admitted TDA was directed to fund this project after Bunney and City staff recommended it - he also left that unchallenged
• Julius Pegues, TDA Vice Chair, was one of the two dissenting votes to approve funding and in an earlier article by the Tulsa World Pegues said he also has concerns about the "process and lack of openness" regarding the reallocation of the funds. "There were no requests for proposals presented," he said. "Other developers who wanted to do development housing downtown didn't get the opportunity to participate."

• Juliues Pegues in the meeting Tuesday then acts like this is something new to them, stating TDA "may have erred," and that TDA has a goal to "prevent these types of issues from occurring in the future."  To which one other developer invited by the Council to speak with Snyder said "it isn't rocket science" to address.
• I have a huge problem with Mayor Taylor saying "she didn't direct TDA and has never directed TDA on what to do"...yet people have shown me numerous copies of TDA contracts signed by Taylor - yet she says she has nothing to do with TDA?

• I find it telling how the Tulsa World put in its article the relationship between Taylor, Helm, his daughter and Ganzgow.
• If you watch the meeting, you will see Chair Bracy stumble over his own words, at one point calling on Mike Bunney to jump in the discussion but Bunney essentially refuses.  At the end of the meeting, in what seemed like a surprise to TDA, Council asks two developers or citizens to come up.  They essentially refuted point for point everything Bracy and Pegues said.  Both Pegues and Bracy never stood up to refute any of the information those two provided...which seemed odd since they just took out the argument TDA was making.

[/list]
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I may have made a mistake putting this post on this thread as it has nothing to do with the plans and actual development of Tribune II...perhaps should be in the Local Politics section so I am posting it there for comment.  Sorry about the confusion Admin.

According to the TW, this project should break ground in the fall.

Interesting article about this project in TW today.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100515_11_A15_Aritsr525643

^^

Glory be for the TDA....

Loan money to the GOB's.... and when they use it for other things...
Loan it to them again.!

Downtown Development in Overdrive that's our TDA!

From my window I can see that there is a backhoe digging up the west and southwest corner of the parking lot where this is supposed to be built.  Not sure if it is the beginning of the project or if it is unrelated.  There is only one backhoe, and it is on the opposite side of where the building is supposed to go up, so it may be some unrelated infrastructure work.  I would sure like to see something go up soon.

I've walked by the last couple of days..
Cautious optimism:  This definitely appears the be the beginnings of Phase II.
West parking lot is gone and they continue to go deeper.
The parking lot (and covered spaces behind the Tribune) are now coming up.

That is really good news

It is the Tribune II under construction. But now it's called The Metro at Brady Arts District. It's a stand alone five story $12 million, 75-unit building.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110114_298_0_Withea634612

That's an ARG name if I've ever heard one. They name apartment buildings like our esteemed developers name their subdivisions.

Good news about the office/apartment combo units, though. And the amenities. And that apparently Tribune didn't go condo after all.

Taken this weekend (1-22-11)...site work is underway.  It will be great to see this building rise over Brady.  You can also see where the parking lot just to the north has been fenced off and a construction trailer has been set up for the hotel project.  No site work has started there yet though.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/brady.jpg)

I am so excited about this project getting off the ground!
This and the hotel across the street will really make this corner feel more urban.

P.S. Anyone know when the new Fairfield should begin construction?

Rendering of the pool, from the same location on the Main St bridge
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110115_tribune20115p2.jpg)

I really like the grass running along the side of the building where the sidewalk ends. I think it will do a nice job of mixing in some green with all the concrete.

If anybody could post pictures of this every so often it would be greatly appreciated!

I'm surprised the pool area is to the west side to the main street bridge and and not to the east so that the original tribunes have a view of the pool and a view of the pedestrian bridge, the jazz depot, center of the universe, etc.  Looks nice though. 

I have a view of it from my office window.  I'll try and take my camera and take some pictures as it develops.

That surprised me too. 

That would make more sense.
Thanks!

The addition of the pool makes this development much more attractive to people in their 20's.  I think it will be a big hit with that age group just like Deep Deuce is in downtown OKC.  Outside of Renaissance and Central Park there haven't been any other apartment options like this downtown.

Worked for these guys

(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20081028/tv-melrose-place/images/ff704d78-9b99-45db-92ba-4bddddbb3cfb.jpg)

This is a picture from my office window.  It's from my iphone with its crappy digital zoom, but I should have a good view of the development.  I'll try and update every month or so.  I will have the same view of the Brady Flats and the Fairfield Inn development.  I'm excited to see the Brady District blow up since it is my office view.  It was alot of fun watching OneOk field go up as I could monitor it on a day to day basis.

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/saxmanosu/MetroatBrady00.jpg)

Thanks so much it will be cool to see the updates!

Any more of those photo updates... ?? Just wondering. I haven't been downtown in about a month.  ;D

Just got back from the Drillers game. (they lost miserably) and was amazed at all the construction going on down there. This project has columns up for what I am assuming is the parking garage?? There is also the Brady Park well under construction. The Matthew's warehouse. The KOTV site is fully fenced off with construction equipment on it. The Fairfield Inn shuld be starting before too long. The Brady Flats are scheduled to break ground this fall. The GreenArch development should begin over the summer. The First Presbyterian Church expansion is well underway. And they were painting a building acrosss from Oneok Field bright red.

And oh yeah, Cimarex Tower should begin this summer. Wow.

I took this yesterday from the Main St bridge
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/trib.jpg?t=1302798413)

Concrete columns???  I thought they were cutting costs by using matchsticks.

Great to see the progress.

As I was discussing in the 119Downtown thread, I may be moving back to Tulsa after 13 years, and would love to find a place down town. Never thought that I would consider living in the Archer & Main area. If they are going to make Lofts II rentals and the price is right, I would move there wirhout a thought. I may be part of the target market, late 40's single, want a decent space, will use a good kitchen, and is the type to entertain in. I would also take advantage of walking to and from a ball game, hockey game, Tulsa Shock, something at the Brady, PAC, or BOk, let alone the food and drink places in the Brady, BD, and other areas.

For some reason I can't post pics.  They are begining to do the brick work now.  Very exciting.  The day that they clear off the lots across the streets and start the fairfeild will be a glorius day.

To post pics they have to have a URL code. If you took them yourself just set up a free Photobucket account or something and then use the URL from that. Please post them, I would love to see the brickwork!

Also, welcome to the forum! All of your posts so far have been good, espescially considering most of our new members are spammers. Please post often.

Thanks!  I also am a booster, not 'sipping on hatter-aide', as I'm told the kids are saying these days.  Whenever I find myself typing something negative, I stop and think "Nah somebody might consider it trolling".

Trust me, we kids do not say "hatteraide." ;D

8/28/11
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6191/6093364936_e02731f8c0_m.jpg)

Thanks for the pic SXSW. Exciting stuff in the Brady right now!

So, those of you that are familiar with this project know that the spaces across the street to the north are being used as a construction landing pad for materials and office space.   Both of the lots being used have projects planned for them.  Well, as I biked by there today, I noticed that they have moved almost everything over into the southeast lot (the future condo building site).  All that seemed to be left was a small container of what looked like scrap and a container.  The office trailor and building supplies had been moved.  Sooooo, Let's get going on that Fairfeild Inn!

Paging Will...

I saw these today on the way to Stillwater. They look really good, and it and the Tribune Building tower over everything in the Brady. One thing I noticed tonight on the way back from Stillwater was how lit up downtown is at night. Most of the skyscraper lights wre turned off but this was more than made up for by all the neon lighting up the buildings, as well as the fireworks going off at Oneok Field. It really just looks like an exciting neighborhood at night.

So, as of yesterday, I saw a new construction trailer across the street from what will be the new hotel.  I'm stoked!

He's on his honeymoon, it might be awhile.

They're scraping the parking lot where the new hotel will go. It's mostly gone. Hooray for one less surface parking lot.

Yep.  Lot is fenced off and parking lot has been ripped up.  Big time.  I always hold my excitement on projects until activity starts taking place.  From my window overlooking the Brady District, currently under construction are the Metro at Brady Apts., the new hotel, the Matthews Warehouse museum, the park across the street, and the Central Parking garage just south of the tracks.  Also, even though its not visible, the Archer Market should be underway.  There is still equipment where the Griffin Communications building will be, but I don't think the actual studio construction will begin anytime soon.  Am I missing anything?  I'd really like to see something start happening near the ballpark with some of those old warehouses or the new apartments that have been proposed for just south of the stadium.

I don't think the Market is underway yet. The light's always on in there and there's been no signs of progress. On another thread Blake said it'd be a quick job to get that space ready to open.

I wonder how close that park is to completion. It's hard to tell. They've been digging holes for months. They ripped up Brady a few weeks back and then repaved it, I'm assuming to connect the geothermal pipes. But the park itself still looks like a giant mess.

At the rate they're running excavators, it's gonna be awhile before all that pollution is offset by the geothermal's pollution savings.

KOTV started moving dirt this week! The new studio construction has begun! They have also started drilling piers for the new hotel and the Ah-ha building as well.

Ah-ha building?

Just can't resist this...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914[/youtube]

OK, sorry..back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Dat would be the Arts and Humanities Counil Building. Besides, I thought we renamed it HVAC. ;D

I'm glad to hear that all these long planned buildings are finally under construction! I can't wait to see what this little enclave of downtown looks like in a couple years.

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSqJ713qaZiST7fT53msKX4Yy1MJICgylEgPr8i8KWs2GXCXHyLtb3qdz-)

The courtyard pool is looking good...taken 1/11/12 from the Main St bridge:
(http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o600/plexis22/pool-1.jpg)

the bottom floor of this building looks to be set up for retail...anyone know if that is true?

Yes

I thought a laundry mat and convenience store were going in down there?

Are any of the retial spots leased out yet?

The Brady streetscaping project hit the construction news web site this morning. If I could figure out how to put the overall plan on here I would.  Looks like it spans from Boston to Elgin and includes Brady and Archer.  Mainly appears like it will be tree wells on the side walks, angled parking, and I would assume bricked or partially bricked sidewalks.  Perhaps if SXSW is an isqft subscriber he can figure out how to post this for the rest of you.

Good looking pool but not apparently compliant with ADA regulations which go into effect this year unless they plan a portable lifting device.

Nice.  Whoever said government regs were costing small business was certainly lying.  ::)

Is that going to be required of every public pool or is there a grandfather clause?

Grandfather clause may or may not happen.  I was visiting the former home of Vice President John Nance Garner which is now a small museum in Uvalde, Texas.  Access to the second floor was closed to everyone because there was no elevator, only stairs.

There is no lift in the pool at the Y but the one-legged woman gets in and out of it just fine.

(I know it sounds like the setup for a joke, but it's not this time)

I would argue that a great percentage of the people who require a lift to get into a pool, would also lack the ability to use the pool once in it.

Whoah there.  Don't be trying to apply logic and common sense to federal regulations.  ;-)

What does use of a pool entail? I would argue that all of the below are (some of the but not all of the potential) pool uses:
drinking
drowning
flailing about
floating
urinating
sinking
soaking
splashing
swiming

I suspect that requirement will shutter most every public pool in Tulsa if there's no grandfather clause.  I know Lortondale struggles to open every year as well as the 5300 club in the same neighborhood.

Grizz- when I was reading your post I was reminded that back when Lee's bicycles was at 81st & Memorial on the NW corner, there was also a paintball supply store in the center.  The two handicap spots were in front of the bike shop and paintball store.  Somewhat ironic, don't you think?

I am part of a trail riding club (motor cycles,quads,horses,mountain bikes and hiking)that manages land to ride upon; we had to put in HC parking.
Recently the state paid us a visit and told us to fine grade up to the edge of the sidewalks and grind the stumps in the camping area or paint them white.

It makes me so happy that this project is done and no longer a featured thread.  Go us!