The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=131638

These things are a cheap way out and a menace to anyone in a small economy vehicle including motorcylists.  I cannot believe Oklahoma would choose to install these "Slice and Dice" contraptions on our highways.  

There are much more humane safety barriers to use that will accomodate and protect all vehicles that pay for the use of a safe and accessible highway.  

I am immediatly forwarding this on to the American Motorcyclists Legislative Alert board.  
 
Good Grief!

(http://www.kotv.com/newsimages/214/c977a8fa-e0d6-4a17-9a27-ca6f9780331b.jpg)

(http://www.kotv.com/newsimages/640/cdc15365-aa38-464a-b8bb-4e48d3ed99fc.jpg)

CLOSE UP OF THE CABLE SYSTEM THAT WILL SLICE A HUMAN BODY IN TWO, AND REMOVE LIMBS AS WELL.

AS NADER ONCE SAID "UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED"

Have there been any Crash Tests performed with these Cable Systems using Crash Test Dummys in small economy automobiles or riding on motorcycles of various sizes that are approved for highway use?

I believe the reason for the switch to these is that they are supposed to be safer, not cheaper. They are basically steel bungee cords.

I believe the idea is not to run into them.[:D]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wilbur

I believe the idea is not to run into them.[:D]

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Well said.

quote:

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Originally posted by AMP

Have there been any Crash Tests performed with these Cable Systems using Crash Test Dummys in small economy automobiles or riding on motorcycles of various sizes that are approved for highway use?

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Yes, there was one about a month ago I believe on the Loop 101 in Scottsdale. Motorcyclist lost control at a high rate of speed and was killed when he and his bike hit/slid through the cable barrier. They are effective at stopping crossover accidents, but cars have gone through them because of the shape of the car or the angle that they hit the barrier. The main thing is to slow and stop the car with out crossing over or ricocheting back into traffic.

Although not all barriers work as intended.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/0716mr-crash0716.html (http://"http://")

Is installing an unmarked cable at motorists neck level, stretched tightly across a parking lot entrance to keep out unwanted vehicles is another good idea?  As stated, you are not supposed to run into it.

Granted, the idea is not to have any accidents, however they do occur.  So why install a barrier system that is known to cause additional injuries to a specific group of motorists, and additional damage to vehicles?

Are these types of barriers that cause physical harm to humans ideal at any costs?  

Are there any racing courses that utilize these cable barrier systems versus smooth walls with additional soft barriers such as collapsible walls, Air Fence or soft barrier tire walls?

The use of soft barrier systems has increased awareness of them, and is the same reason most highway engineers use water barrels to protect solid blunt objects, collapsible blunt ends on guardrail systems and the breakaway bottom stands on light poles.  This Cable Barrier system appears to be headed in the the opposite direction.    

Accidents do occur, and you could be forced to take a quick exit off the highway towards one of these "Slice and Dice" barriers, to avoid other motorists in trouble.  Why install this form of dangerously razor sharp sheet metal with stretched cable when other much safer methods are available?

These type of dangerous devices never seem to matter to anyone until a fatality is caused by one or someone is maimed by them.  Especially when it is someone’s family member or friend.
 

I'm not very fond of them myself. I'm sure that ODOT explained the cost savings and the fact that they are able to repair them quicker than the traditional Jersey/concrete divider they way that ADOT did. In the Phoenix metro area ther is probably 150 miles of this type of barrier on the freeways, although quite a bit of it will be removed when the freeways are widened over the next few years to add HOV lanes and Jersey barriers will be installed in place of the cable system.

Three tests using automobiles and  a truck.

Have yet to locate the test of a motorcycle hitting the barrier.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=10L8421s18Q

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Wdbcwlu1gU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=woZeuFKEn-Q

Initial cost could be lower, the same or higher than a Jersey DOT Concrete barrier.  However, these appear to be a high maintenance system, requiring additional mowing and trimming exposing workers to harms way while creating  increased maintenance expenses. Not to mention the higher costs of repair of the system when it is used from a collision.  

Thing reminds me of a barrier system used in World War II to keep military vehicles from crossing into enemy territory.

Observe the sharp pieces of shrapnel that are spewed off from this system when a vehicle collides with it, not to mention the jagged edges of the broken metal, set in concrete, that is left exposed above the street level.  

Here there is not much grass to mow in the center medians, just some small desert plants and the disance between the left edge of the inside lane to the cable barrier is approximately 25 feet on both sides of the roadway. (I checked with one of the guys that works with ADOT where I work) The one really big danger that I see while driving the freeways is the maintenance worker who are sitting on the cables while taking a break. They sometimes lean on the cables with the backs of their legs and hold the cable in their hands.

As for the debris when a car hits one, wrecker drivers here are required to remove as much of it as possible and put down and sweep up any absorbent put down for small leaks. Larger ones are handled by the fire department that responds to the scene. Any larger spills the state is responsible for the clean up of fluids. (Which with the way people drive here is a common occurence)

No cable I've seen has ever been "neck level." Even in the picture they are shorter than the barrels which are only 3-4ft tall.

The cable barriers allow bouncing and deflection as opposed to concrete which flattens anything that impacts it. These are pretty much the same material and height as the metal guardrails but easier to repair and do less damage.

The same people who complain about the safety of these cable barriers are the same ones who complain if additional tax dollars are spent if you build more elaborate ones.

So what do you want? Safer and cheaper? You can't have it both ways.

As I mentioned earlier there has only been one motorcycle cable barrier incident that I can remember, and possibly the cause of death was not directly related to the cables. In the investigation the speedo on the bike was stuck at 120mph, they believ that he may have been traveling well in excess of 140mph as reported by witnesses to the accident. I think the fastest they have clocked a bike on this freeway is somewhere betwe 145 and 155mph.

You run into *anything* on a motorcycle at 120 mph, you are gonna die.

The cable barriers obviously aren't the issue in this case.

All my life, I've heard that concrete barriers do little to stop a car traveling at normal freeway speed - a car will vault over those things pretty easily and continue into head-on collision traffic.

Motorcycles account for what percentage of motor vehicles on the freeway?  How many motorcycle accidents involve hitting the center barrier?  I'd wager that the new 'rope' barriers save more lives than they put at risk.

Razor sharp?  WWII military fences?  Unmarked neck-level metal rope? "Observe the sharp pieces of shrapnel that are spewed off from this system when a vehicle collides with it, not to mention the jagged edges of the broken metal, set in concrete, that is left exposed above the street level."  As opposed to other collisions, where debris from ruined cars stacks in neat little piles with rounded edges...  You must know that this kind of language borders on histrionic and doesn't do much to help your arguments.

It's probably a compromise.  They are certainly cheaper than large concrete barriers and arguably look better too.  They may have more maintenance costs and apparently there is an argument that they are not as safe.  

That said:
1) They are better than nothing.  Certainly hitting this at a shear angle at 70pmh and more than likely deflecting off is better than hitting oncoming traffic at 140 mph.  Killing 2 car loads of people.

2) A motorcycle hitting a concrete barrier at 70 mph is just as dead as one hitting a wire barrier.  I really do not see how that would be an issue.  Unless he turned at a 90 angle to the rope and hopped off of his bike and skid across the ground to be decapitated.  In which case he would have ended up in oncoming traffic and them slamming into a ditch anyway...

Clearly any safety device can in rare circumstances do more harm than good.  But on the whole they will probably help...

I have always also asked why the Jersey DOT concrete barriers were not at the proper height to keep motorcycle riders from going over the top of them. They should be a minimum of six feet high to be a proper fit for a motorycle rider.  Afterall the Department of TRANSPORTATION should be just that.  

To accomodate all forms of Transportation, and not just Heavy Vehicles.  For many years motorcyles license tags in Oklahoma cost $8.50.  Now they are many times more than that, however DOT does ont seem to recognize in all instances those vehicles as one that also uses the highways.  The ratio of use should not be a factor.  

May be there are fewer motorcycles in this state than others, due to the lack of maintenance of the highways, and the incorporation of these unsafe and dangerous types of barriers.  

The statement of the wire rope stretched across the entrance was to illustrate that just because you are not supposed to run into barriers or objects located in the proximity of where one normally operates a motor vehicle does not mean there should be solid objects or hard to see objects placed in ones path intentionally.

I sustained damage, to one of my vehicles, while turning into the Budweiser Plant in Ardmore, Oklahoma on a business call.  The damage was caused by a wire rope strung across an entrance to the plant.

I had never been there before, and turned into the second entrance while looking back at the sign to make sure it was the correct building.  They had a wire rope stretched across that driveway that was rusted brown and very difficult to see against the similar brown color of the buliding on that overcast day in the Winter.  

The cable caught on the upper portion of the grill of my truck and stretched like a bow string, it then popped up over the hood and sprung back into my windshield cracking the glass and tearing off the radio antenna.  I was traveling around 10mph.  

I have witnessed dozens of crashes involving motorcycle riders in excess of 100 mph and majority of them walked away.  

Most of the ones that did not, had collided with a concrete barrier in turn 8a at Texas World Speedway, that has since been removed using a large crane, a Bull Dozer, and a Blade.

Took one fatality and four orthopedic injuries to convince the track owners to remove that barrier.

Since the removal of that wall, there have been crashes at that turn, but no serious injuries were sustained
 
The pieces of broken metal I observed in the Youtube video of the crash test appear to be razor sharp.  So if you are involved in an accident where another heavy vehicle ahead of you tears out the upright suspension portion of that barriers system, and you come along behind it and slide over those metal stands sheared off, I submit it would be razor sharp to your body parts.  I submit also that those uprights, when hit at speeds over 10 mph, will do damage to human flesh just as a razor sharp object.

O have seen the Tree Removal crews cutting down trees leaving a two or more foot high stub of a 2" to 4" diameter trees stickign up out of the ground on the roadside.  There were a large portion of these at the intersection of 36th Street North and Peoria two summers ago.  

Bottom line is why install an object or create an object near a roadway that by commom sense appears to be designed as more of a weapon than protection?  And once one is determined to be dangerous and causes injurires, why continue to use it or leave it in place until there is a fatality?   Just seems to be the common chain of events for some reason.  

Perhaps it is along the lines of the the same reason we had to create OSHA and OSHA Inspectors to keep foolish and greedy business owners from maiming and killing off the work force.

Two computer simulation tests performed one using the system as designed, second using round tubes around the legs of the upright flat metal supports and a plastic thick material along the lower edge.

http://www.nmcu.org/av/rider_no_protection_right_view.mpg

http://www.nmcu.org/av/rider_with_protection_right_view.mpg

Trying to find the OHP quote... but it was effectively that when a vehicle glances a wall (like a Jersey Barrier) it's energy is deflected and the vehicle may leave the median as it slows.  When a vehicle hits cables, more energy is absorbed faster as the vehicle is "caught" in the cables.  

Since you're coming to a complete sudden stop rather than being slowed, the G-forces are greater and you are less likely to survive (since your "glancing blow" now becomes a "head on") but your vehicle is less likely to hit another vehicle (which is where the "saving lives" claim figures in).

Essentially trading one life for another.

The concrete barrier simulations seem to indicate that a motorcyclist impacting such a barrier in an upright position will sustain survivable injuries because of low decelerations during impact.

Simulations of the wire rope barrier collisions
showed that regardless of angle or speed it is
unlikely that the motorcyclist will clear the barrier very cleanly. In many cases the motorcyclist’s extremities became caught between the wires.

This results in the rider being subjected to high decelerations.

So you want 6 foot high concrete barriers in place of all the barriers currently in place in the state? Find the hundreds of millions of dollars to do that and calm the people down about how ridiculously ugly that will be and then go for it!  

To accommodate all forms of transit I demand bicycle trails to Oklahoma City while we are at it.  And a go cart path.  What's the safest way of crossing the state on a camel?

Motor Cycles account for  3% of fatalities each year in Oklahoma, yet we should triple (or more) the cost to accommodate motorcycles? Six foot tall concrete walls... seriously.  If that is choice, then lets put nothing in and let the motorists and the motorcyclist continue to battle head on.  

Also, the mesh of wire on conspicuous polls in the center median is not comparable to a single line of rope across a right of way.  If the DOT proposes using a single line of wire rope to shut down roads or to stop traffic at toll roads, then we have a similar situation.  This is more akin to the wire rope in the grass at the U of Tulsa to stop people from parking on it...

I am in favor of divided highways that are separated by large sponge-filled center medians.

My "Twinkie Road" theory would allow vehicles leaving the roadway to hit something soft.

It would also allow for rain-water harvesting for highway gardens and help resolve stormwater runoff issues.

It sounds like DOT is approaching this from a "something is better than nothing" angle.  
From that perspective they might be right, but if we were to spend a bit more money we could get Jersey (or F-Shape) Barriers and actually save lives.

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/2006/1/2006_1_26.shtml
http://www.answers.com/topic/f-shape-barrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-Shape_Barrier
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/roadwayengineering/standards/faqs.asp
http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/marapr00/concrete.htm

(http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/marapr00/images/barriersfig2.jpg)

Here in Phoenix when a car has hit the cable barriers and taken out the posts supporting the cables, a crew from ADOT is on scene to repair the damage between 8 and 24 hours afterwards. At times they are there within 4 hours to make repairs. They have 2 to 4 crews at any given time making repairs. And as I stated earlier most of the cable barriers are 20 to 25 feet from the actual lane of traffic. An example is the Loop 101 Freeway, going from the right shoulder to the barrier you have a 10' shoulder, three 12' lanes of travel, another 10' to 12' sholuder and the 10' to 15' of median then the barrier. The odds of a motorcyclist coming off his bike and sliding through the same spot that a car had taken out the supports are slim to say the least, and the ones that are used here do not usually snap off, they are bent over because they are made to do so at the ground.

Yes, the cable barriers are designed to absorb more of the impact from a crash, thus lessening your chance of getting killed. Plus they prevent vehicles from veering into oncoming lanes, which is no small thing.

They have those cable barriers along I-70 and I-64 going into St. Louis.

Those barriers are very visible. If you can't seem them, as AMP intimates, you're blind and shouldn't be driving a vehicle at all.

ODOT is here to protect the *majority* of motorists, not motorcyclists who drive at insane triple-digit speeds, don't wear a helmet, or other dumb*ss stuff I frequently see them do.

What of the wheelie pulling crotch rockets I see on 169?  Their front wheel is probably near the 6 foot mark, so the 6 foot concrete barriers wouldn't help either as they may bounce over.  Better go to 7 foot so we can protect all transportation.

quote:

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Originally posted by rwarn17588

Yes, the cable barriers are designed to absorb more of the impact from a crash, thus lessening your chance of getting killed. Plus they prevent vehicles from veering into oncoming lanes, which is no small thing.

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Keeping vehicles from crossing into oncoming traffic seem to be the cable barriers only real selling point (accounting for about 6% of deaths), A Jersey barrier could do the same without sacrificing the lives of the primary vehicle's occupants.

Look at the median barrier on the Broken Arrow Expressway eastbound past Sheridan, and all the impact points there.  Most of those represent accidents the driver was able to walk away from because the forces were dispersed over time and distance along the barrier.
Now substitute a cable barrier where all of that force is concentrated at the point of impact by the vehicle becoming snared in the cables, and those points become fatality markers.

Looking at it from an economic standpoint, most impacts to Jersey barriers dont require repairs, whereas impacts to cable barriers almost always require dangerous and traffic-disrupting repairs -- and we'll end up having to do them all the time.  Cable barriers are cheaper in the short-term, but the required maintenance quickly cancels out any long-term savings.

I know this discussion was intended to illustrate that Cable Barriers are a bad idea for motorcyclists, but it's painfully apparent from the practical, economic and life-safety standpoints that it's not a well thought-out plan for motorists in general.

We should be pushing for Jersey (F-Shape) Barriers or nothing.

quote:

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Originally posted by patric

quote:

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Originally posted by rwarn17588

Yes, the cable barriers are designed to absorb more of the impact from a crash, thus lessening your chance of getting killed. Plus they prevent vehicles from veering into oncoming lanes, which is no small thing.

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Keeping vehicles from crossing into oncoming traffic seem to be the cable barriers only real selling point (accounting for about 6% of deaths), A Jersey barrier could do the same without sacrificing the lives of the primary vehicle's occupants.

Look at the median barrier on the Broken Arrow Expressway eastbound past Sheridan, and all the impact points there.  Most of those represent accidents the driver was able to walk away from because the forces were dispersed over time and distance along the barrier.
Now substitute a cable barrier where all of that force is concentrated at the point of impact by the vehicle becoming snared in the cables, and those points become fatality markers.

Looking at it from an economic standpoint, most impacts to Jersey barriers dont require repairs, whereas impacts to cable barriers almost always require dangerous and traffic-disrupting repairs -- and we'll end up having to do them all the time.  Cable barriers are cheaper in the short-term, but the required maintenance quickly cancels out any long-term savings.

I know this discussion was intended to illustrate that Cable Barriers are a bad idea for motorcyclists, but it's painfully apparent from the practical, economic and life-safety standpoints that it's not a well thought-out plan for motorists in general.

We should be pushing for Jersey (F-Shape) Barriers or nothing.

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Cable barriers are designed for deflection, not "snaring" vehicles. And when a vehicle hits your concrete barrier, all of the impact happens at one spot and nothing is absorbed by the target. Also note the fact that the concrete barriers on the BA near downtown are being ripped out and replaced due to all of the damage over time.

Reply from the AMA Legislative Branch

"Thank you for using the “Contact Us” feature at www.AMADirectlink.com to alert us to the Oklahoma Department of Transportation project to install cable barriers.

We have expressed our concern to state DOTs in the past on this issue; the answer is usually the same – no answer or that other barriers ‘cost more.’  While we understand that cost is an issue, so are human lives.

If you learn any additional information on this topic, please forward it directly to me at iszauter@ama-cycle.org.

Thanks again for contacting us and for your interest in motorcycle safety."

Sincerely,

Legislative Affairs Specialist
American Motorcyclist Association
13515 Yarmouth Drive
Pickerington, OH 43147-8214
1 (800) AMA-JOIN
1 (614) 856-1900, ext. 1125
rights. riding. racing.

There's some dubious reasoning going on in this thread.

A sampling of some statements that have me doing some head-scratching:

"...when a vehicle glances a wall (like a Jersey Barrier) it's energy is deflected and the vehicle may leave the median as it slows. When a vehicle hits cables, more energy is absorbed faster as the vehicle is "caught" in the cables.  Since you're coming to a complete sudden stop rather than being slowed, the G-forces are greater and you are less likely to survive (since your "glancing blow" now becomes a "head on") but your vehicle is less likely to hit another vehicle"  (this doesn't jive with the physics I was taught in school)

"Look at the median barrier on the Broken Arrow Expressway eastbound past Sheridan, and all the impact points there. Most of those represent accidents the driver was able to walk away from because the forces were dispersed over time and distance along the barrier."  (assuming that would not be the case with cables, I guess)

AMP, unless you're with the NTSB, this just stretches credulity to the breaking point:
"I have witnessed dozens of crashes involving motorcycle riders in excess of 100 mph and majority of them walked away."  Got any references for that?  I'd be glad to know that it's typical and not an exaggeration.

Since we're essentially dealing with death, let's make this clear - there's not an endless source of money or other resources to eliminate death or the risk of death, unfortunate though that is.  When it comes down to it, The Man has to decide how many deaths he can prevent having a set amount of resources available.  Can anybody say for certain that the concrete is more expensive to install and maintain?  Seems to me that cable would be more expensive in the long run, but that's just a guess.

The ratio of motorcycle riders and/or fatal accidents to automotive is not a valid consideration?  I think cannon_fodder hit the nail on the head: "Motor Cycles account for 3% of fatalities each year in Oklahoma, yet we should triple (or more) the cost to accommodate motorcycles?"  See the rest of his post for a bunch of rational thinking, apart from a little camel silliness.

This thread seems to have started with one premise: "That looks like it would hurt if you ran into it."

quote:

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

Also note the fact that the concrete barriers on the BA near downtown are being ripped out and replaced due to all of the damage over time.

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Bingo, that's over time instead of every time as would be the case with cable barriers.

quote:

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Originally posted by buckeye

There's some dubious reasoning going on in this thread.

AMP, unless you're with the NTSB, this just stretches credulity to the breaking point:
"I have witnessed dozens of crashes involving motorcycle riders in excess of 100 mph and majority of them walked away."  Got any references for that?  I'd be glad to know that it's typical and not an exaggeration.

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I work along side of Race Control at ten different race courses in the United States, working for three racing sanctions.  And yes I have witnessed dozens of motorcycle road race, dirt track, motocross and drag racing incidents.  

Majority of times when a rider crashes on a motorcycle in a single vehicle incident, and does not have a sudden stop with a solid object while traveling at high speeds, they normally walk away.   Incidents involving two or more riders, typically end in some level of trauma, however most times the riders may only suffer  sprained wrists or ankles, or other minor fractures.  

Typically when the rider comes into contact with a vertical object that should not be there, such as a small tree that has grown up since our last visit to a venue, or and object that is left unprotected by soft barriers such as straw bales or air fence, do we see injuries from single rider crashes.

I have crashed (handlebar hit the ground) more than once  at speeds over 100mph while riding motorcycles, and walked away from it.  Protective leathers, boots, gloves, helmet provide adequate protection from sliding on concrete/asphalt, grass or clay surfaces.  

A famous motorcyle stunt jumper once said, "It's not the fall that hurts, it is the sudden stop at the bottom."  Or It's not the slide that hurts, it is the sudden impact with another object.

Here is an example of two riders involved in an incident.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBQWjbzvthg&mode=related&search=

quote:

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

Cable barriers are designed for deflection, not "snaring" vehicles. And when a vehicle hits your concrete barrier, all of the impact happens at one spot and nothing is absorbed by the target. Also note the fact that the concrete barriers on the BA near downtown are being ripped out and replaced due to all of the damage over time.

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Actually, they replaced beat-up Armco railing with Jersey barriers at the 15th St. east-bound exit.

I don't know that there is any barrier which will be perfect in every crash.  Solid or cable objects, or on-coming vehicles are not friendly to bikes, period.

The one thing I don't like about Jersey barriers is the taper out-ward at the bottom.  They can and do suck a tire up on them and flip vehicles.  Ever notice those tell-tale skid marks going upward on a barrier?

At least it only winds up usually injuring or killing the inattentive driver who would have otherwise crossed the median and taken out someone else, though occasionally they wind up taking out someone else traveling behind them.

I don't see comparing race crashes with street crashes as valid.  The situations are too different and there are far more variables on the street than on the course.  Perhaps if nerf-lined freeways were populated only with motorcycles and every rider came equipped with race-ready safety gear, yes.  Not only that, but there must be some skill involved in coming off the bike properly to minimize injury.  Does the general motorcycle-riding population have the same level of skill?  Doubt it...

quote:

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Typically when the rider comes into contact with a vertical object that should not be there, such as a small tree that has grown up since our last visit to a venue, or and object that is left unprotected by soft barriers such as straw bales or air fence, do we see injuries from single rider crashes.

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In situations _closer_ to 'real life', in other words.

I suppose this thread could easily wander into general motorcycle safety questions.  :)  I should say that I've never ridden one.  Moreover, I never plan to - driving a Miata for the last six years has helped convince me that I'm not willing to take the safety risks associated with essentially being naked in a sea of SUVs and other 3000 pound (and heavier) objects that can't or won't see my vehicle.  

Frankly, that does bias my position.  You rides your bike and you takes your chances.  Given the number of riders I see without helmets (at least half), there are many that just don't care.

Actually many of the riding suits you see savvy street motorcyclists wearing are made from Kevlar materials and hidden armor with space age plastics and other forms of protection sewn inside the garments.  

Helmets are another issue all together.  Seems since the major cause of injury and death is head injuries in the majority of traffic accidents, then using the best for the majority logic, why is there not a mandatory Helmet Law for every person that is in or operating a moving vehicle at all times?  

Airlines should also issue jump suits, helmets and Parachutes plus instructions to all passengers at time of boarding.

All rides at amusement parks should also issue and require the use of helmets to protect the rider’s heads from any unforeseen trauma.

Trade off using helmets is compromising neck and spine injuries for immediate trauma to the skull, face and scalp areas.

Granted a helmets round form will provide glancing blows from objects one may come in contact with, and a helmet properly designed for the intent of use may provide reduced chances for superficial trauma. However, closed head injuries are not uncommon with both victims wearing and those not wearing helmets. Studies have found the de-acceleration is the major cause of closed head injuries, which occur, in automobile accidents at a far higher rate than in motorcycle accidents. Main reason is the passengers in automobiles have objects much closer to them to impact with than one riding a motorcycle.

Add to that the weight of the helmet, increasing the chances of neck and spine injuries even when there is no impact to the helmet what so ever. Just the G Forces and the added weight on the person’s neck using the helmet increases their chances of neck/spine injury. Main reason for the Head and Neck Support (HANS Device) inventions and others similar to it.

Bottom line is we provide additional funding and expense to accommodate handicapped individuals and do not design buildings, ingress and egress. Plus provide access for them for public transpiration. We do not leave out the small minority of handicapped. However thinking back on this the government was forced to make laws to make sure businesses and public use facilities and transportation would provide accommodations for handicapped people.

Why discriminate by using sub-standard and dangerous, and cheaper traffic control devices on tax payer's public roads and highways? Cheaper as pointed out by the American Motorcyclists Associations Legislative representative or public use roads and highways?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar

Motorcycle hit's cable barrier on BA
http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10728711

Damn lucky he doesn't look like a loaf of sliced bread.  3am??? Hmmm.

I am 2 years late on this discussion, but I am always willing to give my opinion. 

AMP.  the 100mph+ crashes you have witness are in a controlled environment.  They are on a race course where the only vehicle the person has to worry about are the bikes behind him.  They generally have ample areas to slow down without abrupt stops (such as a wall).  With the number of crashes you have during a bike race, I would be extremely frightened if they had a high rate of fatality.

Now, in the real world, where you have 20-500 tons of metal rolling at 70mph within a 100ft radius of you... I think I would rather take my chance with the cable.  And there is just as good of a chance of a car crossing the median and hitting a bike head-on as it would for a bike to slice through the cable... again, I would take my chance with the cable. 

As for the cost issues.  How long did it take for these barriers to get installed?  Not very long.  They drill one day, roll cable and install poles the remaining 3 or 4.  I saw them install the 5 miles of cable on 169 N in approx 2 weeks, + or - 1 week.  So on the highend, 3 weeks to roll 5 miles of cable barriers.  It would take MONTHS of labor and materials for them to pour the jerseys like the installed on the new section of 169 (11th through 244).  A cost benefit analysis would have to have been completed prior to even thinking about going with this method.  even if you have 1 crew out every other business day fixing the cables, I would imagine you are still at a far greater cost savings. 

It appears AMP bailed on this forum about eight months ago, so it's doubtful he's going to get your response.

Posters tend to bail when they get called out frequently on their BS, or when the inexorable force of events and time renders their opinions obsolete.