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Talk About Tulsa => Other Tulsa Discussion => Topic started by: patric on June 23, 2007, 01:36:01 pm



Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on June 23, 2007, 01:36:01 pm
Tulsa public Schools are considering the creation of their own police force, initially funded by $2 million in federal money.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070615_238_A1_Themi73431

But there are questions about a publicly-funded private police force, and how transparent their operation might be.

The University of Oklahoma received widespread criticism from both government watchdogs and conspiracy theorists following the alleged cover-up of a botched attempt to bomb a football stadium packed with 84,000 fans on October 1, 2005.  After failing to obtain quantities of Ammonium Nitrate, 21 year-old Joel Henry Hinrichs III settled on a TATP bomb and shrapnel, but was reportedly stopped at a stadium gate when he refused to allow his backpack to be searched.    

In a break from normal investigative procedure, the bench on which Hinrichs was killed was immediately removed and the area hosed down by campus police, and the incident was attributed to an "individual suicide".

More recently, this article about campus police concealing the rape and murder of a student, from the Whirled:


" YPSILANTI, Mich. -- For two months after Laura Dickinson was found dead in her dorm room, Eastern Michigan University officials assured her parents and the public there was no sign of foul play.
But campus police knew otherwise all along.
It wasn't until a fellow classmate was arrested in February that the truth came out: Dickinson had been raped and murdered. She had been found spread-eagle on the floor, naked from the waist down, a pillow covering her face and semen on her leg.
Now university officials from the president on down are being accused of endangering students to protect the school's image. "

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070623_1_C18_hUniv31243

Unlike the OU Bombing, EMU's faculty council voted to call for the firing of the university's president, saying the "cover-up was typical of the administration"  

Which leads us to the question: once a TPS Police Force is running independent of the normal checks and balances of municipal police departments, how accountable to the public will they be required to be, or will they, like OU, promptly flush their embarrassments down the drain with a fire hose?  



Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: sgrizzle on June 23, 2007, 03:49:49 pm
There was a story about people doing this in texas. They can hire officers and get equipment of the same quality as TPD but for less cost since there is no middle man. You can own a drug sniffing dog for a fraction of what it costs to rent one.

In texas they made a several-fold reduction in crime by having their own district PD and a lot of well-monitored security cameras and patrols.

Hosing down and hauling off bloody, body-part covered materials from the middle of a public event seems like someone just trying to keep from inciting a riot, not covering up some great conspiracy.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Breadburner on June 23, 2007, 10:54:11 pm
It's no diffrent then the Catholic church covering up the rapes of young boys...If a crime has been committed you call the proper authorities......Or face criminal charges yourself......They need to seperate the line of campus security and actual Police and or investgative authorities.....


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: sgrizzle on June 24, 2007, 01:59:18 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner

It's no diffrent then the Catholic church covering up the rapes of young boys...If a crime has been committed you call the proper authorities......Or face criminal charges yourself......They need to seperate the line of campus security and actual Police and or investgative authorities.....



I do agree here. With traffic and security, campus police should handle it. All major crimes should still be referred to TPD.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 26, 2007, 06:17:38 am
On my campus for both Undergraduate (state school) and Graduate school (U Tulsa) the campus cops had the same power as a law enforcement officer.  At University of Northern Iowa the vast majority were retired cops OR waiting for jobs on a force after finishing a police training course at the community college.  They had everything from legal studies course to CLEET.  

In public high schools, the liaison officer was a mix between cop and 'best friend.'  The idea was to disuade kids from even bothering to do illegal stuff on campus.  In my hometown, it worked real well for a while - until the kids became accustomed to their presence.  Even then, it worked better than nothing.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Johnboy976 on June 26, 2007, 11:18:35 am
I am a grad of Furman University. The cops there were designated as actual law enforcement officers (one was a retired FBI agent, and two were part-time county police officers). How they were able to make this possible was because Furman acted as a separate part of Greenville, SC. Campus police were a part of the county and city police force (although they were paid by the school). It was a weird setup, but if you assaulted one of them, you were charged with assaulting a police officer, and quickly taken to the county jail. It was one of the safest campuses I've ever lived on.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on October 29, 2007, 06:32:39 pm
An interesting video of campus police making up the rules as they go along:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f5c_1193345495


Reporter Arrested While Covering Story

MIAMI -- A Local 10 reporter was arrested at Miami Central Senior High School while he was on assignment covering a story about school violence.
On Tuesday, Miami-Dade Schools Police told WPLG-TV's Jeff Weinsier he was trespassing and that he needed to leave.

He was not inside the school or inside the fenced-in area that surrounds the school. School board police told him to leave and go across the street from the school, but Weinsier said he was on a public sidewalk.

Police said they were giving him a lawful order to get off the property and that he was within 500 feet of a school.
Weinsier on videotape tries to convince officers that he had the right to be on the sidewalk and pointed out that other people were on the sidewalk, but after repeated attempts, police handcuffed him.

"If they are in a place that other people are -- public or anything -- and you focus only on a reporter and you tell them they need to leave, that would violate the constitution," said Mitrani.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Breadburner on October 29, 2007, 06:56:23 pm
He should call the real police and file a report...They broke the law....But I would like to hear the other half of the story...


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on November 01, 2007, 12:55:38 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner

He should call the real police and file a report...They broke the law....But I would like to hear the other half of the story...


The nice thing about raw video is that, unless it's been tampered with, it pretty much tells what happened.
I dont know if Florida law gives any recourse to anyone falsely imprisoned by pseudo-cops, as they seem to have all the authority without the responsibility of their sworn counterparts.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: spoonbill on November 01, 2007, 01:16:13 pm
quote:
Originally posted by patric

quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner

He should call the real police and file a report...They broke the law....But I would like to hear the other half of the story...


The nice thing about raw video is that, unless it's been tampered with, it pretty much tells what happened.
I dont know if Florida law gives any recourse to anyone falsely imprisoned by pseudo-cops, as they seem to have all the authority without the responsibility of their sworn counterparts.



Just look at the Jenks Campus Police.  They look just like TPD except they have nicer cars, better equipment shinier guns, and are, most likley, paid more.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070905_9_ZS4_hJenk04101



Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TUalum0982 on November 01, 2007, 07:35:11 pm
quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:
Originally posted by patric

quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner

He should call the real police and file a report...They broke the law....But I would like to hear the other half of the story...


The nice thing about raw video is that, unless it's been tampered with, it pretty much tells what happened.
I dont know if Florida law gives any recourse to anyone falsely imprisoned by pseudo-cops, as they seem to have all the authority without the responsibility of their sworn counterparts.



Just look at the Jenks Campus Police.  They look just like TPD except they have nicer cars, better equipment shinier guns, and are, most likley, paid more.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070905_9_ZS4_hJenk04101






I can assure you Jenks Campus Police arent paid as well as TPD.  TPD starts at 42,500 per yr with 100 dollar a month bonus for having a college degree.  Since they require a 4yr college degree, thats an extra 1200 per yr.  I graduated from Jenks in 2001, they were driving older model crown vics and chevy caprices.  I last saw the chevy caprice about 8 months ago.  TPD has all new crown vics, chargers, mauraders, impalas, and magnums.  

TPD's academy is 24 weeks (if I remember correctly) with another 16 weeks working as a FTO (field training officer) with another officer.  I can assure you TPD's training is more difficult, skilled, and effective then that of Jenks Campus Police 2 days at the range.  Plus I believe the only requirement for Jenks Campus Police is to be CLEET CERTIFIED, with a decent background.  I would be willing to bet that half of the Jenks Campus Police would not pass the background check that TPD requires and the questions that are asked of them in front of the top brass.

I dont know where you got that info that Jenks Campus Police have better cars, pay and equipment, or if thats just your own personal opinion but I would have to disagree with you.



Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: spoonbill on November 02, 2007, 05:29:16 am
quote:
Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:
Originally posted by patric

quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner

He should call the real police and file a report...They broke the law....But I would like to hear the other half of the story...


The nice thing about raw video is that, unless it's been tampered with, it pretty much tells what happened.
I dont know if Florida law gives any recourse to anyone falsely imprisoned by pseudo-cops, as they seem to have all the authority without the responsibility of their sworn counterparts.



Just look at the Jenks Campus Police.  They look just like TPD except they have nicer cars, better equipment shinier guns, and are, most likley, paid more.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070905_9_ZS4_hJenk04101






I can assure you Jenks Campus Police arent paid as well as TPD.  TPD starts at 42,500 per yr with 100 dollar a month bonus for having a college degree.  Since they require a 4yr college degree, thats an extra 1200 per yr.  I graduated from Jenks in 2001, they were driving older model crown vics and chevy caprices.  I last saw the chevy caprice about 8 months ago.  TPD has all new crown vics, chargers, mauraders, impalas, and magnums.  

TPD's academy is 24 weeks (if I remember correctly) with another 16 weeks working as a FTO (field training officer) with another officer.  I can assure you TPD's training is more difficult, skilled, and effective then that of Jenks Campus Police 2 days at the range.  Plus I believe the only requirement for Jenks Campus Police is to be CLEET CERTIFIED, with a decent background.  I would be willing to bet that half of the Jenks Campus Police would not pass the background check that TPD requires and the questions that are asked of them in front of the top brass.

I dont know where you got that info that Jenks Campus Police have better cars, pay and equipment, or if thats just your own personal opinion but I would have to disagree with you.





One of them lives in my neighborhood.  He drives a new Doge Jenks Police car.  Has a dash mounted computer.  He patrols the East and SE campuses.  He told me once that they have to patrol the River Walk too.  I'm not sure what he gets paid, but he lives in a 250k+ house and his wife is a stay at home mom.  He used to be a Highway Patrol.

I will ask him about the job next time we take a walk.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TUalum0982 on November 02, 2007, 07:09:29 pm
quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:
Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:
Originally posted by patric

quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner

He should call the real police and file a report...They broke the law....But I would like to hear the other half of the story...


The nice thing about raw video is that, unless it's been tampered with, it pretty much tells what happened.
I dont know if Florida law gives any recourse to anyone falsely imprisoned by pseudo-cops, as they seem to have all the authority without the responsibility of their sworn counterparts.



Just look at the Jenks Campus Police.  They look just like TPD except they have nicer cars, better equipment shinier guns, and are, most likley, paid more.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070905_9_ZS4_hJenk04101






I can assure you Jenks Campus Police arent paid as well as TPD.  TPD starts at 42,500 per yr with 100 dollar a month bonus for having a college degree.  Since they require a 4yr college degree, thats an extra 1200 per yr.  I graduated from Jenks in 2001, they were driving older model crown vics and chevy caprices.  I last saw the chevy caprice about 8 months ago.  TPD has all new crown vics, chargers, mauraders, impalas, and magnums.  

TPD's academy is 24 weeks (if I remember correctly) with another 16 weeks working as a FTO (field training officer) with another officer.  I can assure you TPD's training is more difficult, skilled, and effective then that of Jenks Campus Police 2 days at the range.  Plus I believe the only requirement for Jenks Campus Police is to be CLEET CERTIFIED, with a decent background.  I would be willing to bet that half of the Jenks Campus Police would not pass the background check that TPD requires and the questions that are asked of them in front of the top brass.

I dont know where you got that info that Jenks Campus Police have better cars, pay and equipment, or if thats just your own personal opinion but I would have to disagree with you.





One of them lives in my neighborhood.  He drives a new Doge Jenks Police car.  Has a dash mounted computer.  He patrols the East and SE campuses.  He told me once that they have to patrol the River Walk too.  I'm not sure what he gets paid, but he lives in a 250k+ house and his wife is a stay at home mom.  He used to be a Highway Patrol.

I will ask him about the job next time we take a walk.



Thats why he lives in a 250K house, because he is a retired trooper.  They have a pretty lucrative retirement plan.  As for TPD, checkout their website (www.tulsapolice.org) and click on JOIN TPD.  Their pay isnt exactly minimum wage.  Each TPD patrol car has a new computer, not to mention all the new motorcycles they purchased, and the new radar/laser equipment that can pick out the fastest car out of 3 lanes of traffic (for instance on 169).



Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on November 29, 2007, 03:03:44 pm
Crime & Punishment: Yale's New Secret Society
Yale University Police Department wants all the power of a regular police force, but none of the accountability.

http://www.newhavenadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=4486

If it looks like a cop, shoots like a cop and arrests like a cop, is it a cop?

Apparently not if it’s a Yale cop.

The Yale University Police Department exists under a patchwork of state and city laws and university policy, and acts like a normal police force most of the time. They have arrest powers anywhere in the city (and anywhere in the state for felony crimes). They carry weapons. They drive squad cars. They use the New Haven Police Department to book suspects, process records and evidence, and detain and transport prisoners. They even wear NHPD badges.

But when it comes to investigating its own, Yale P.D.’s a private entity. So says Yale’s police chief, who is fighting the release of personnel files of two Yale cops suspected of mishandling the arrest of a city teenager near Yale last spring: Officers Brian T. Donnelly and Chris Cofrancesco.

The 16-year-old African American boy was arrested on a breach of peace charge for allegedly riding his bike on the sidewalk on May 23. When questions arose about how the officers treated the kid during questioning, Public Defender Janet Perrotti asked Yale P.D. for access to the arresting officers’ personnel files.

Yale P.D. refused on the premise that it’s a private entity, not subject to state open records laws. Perrotti believes otherwise, and filed a Freedom of Information complaint for the records that will likely serve as a test case for whether Yale P.D. can shield itself from public scrutiny.

Perrotti, whose husband, ironically, is the first cousin of Yale Police Chief James Perrotti, argues that Yale cops perform a “government function,” which is one threshold under case law for determining whether an entity falls under FOIA. The law lays out four benchmarks for gauging whether an agency’s considered “public:” 1) The entity performs a governmental function. 2) The level of government funding it gets. 3) The extent of government involvement or regulation over the agency. And 4) whether the entity was created by the government.

The public defender reasons Yale P.D. clearly performs a government function: They patrol downtown New Haven in police cruisers, investigate crimes and carry guns. Yale receives millions in federal and state funding, the complaint says, and get what amounts to city subsidies in the form of tax exemptions on its headquarters (appraised at $5.6 million) and squad cars.

As noted previously, Yale police collaborate with city police. And the first Yale officers, back in 1894, were New Haven cops on loan from the city, which maintained powers to appoint Yale cops for years afterward. So Yale P.D. would appear to meet all four of the benchmarks, Janet Perrotti says.

“YUPD should not become one of Yale University’s secret societies,” she writes in her FOIA brief.

Yale’s lawyer, Robert M. Langer of Wiggin & Dana, admits that, yes, Yale P.D. functions much as regular police do, but that an agreement with the city revised in 1992 actually stripped the city of whatever oversight powers it may have had. Yale cops, for instance, no longer have to train at the same academy New Haven cops do; any municipal training program is sufficient. The revised agreement also “omits any reference to YPD abiding by rules and regulations of the City of New Haven Department of Police Services.”

As to government funding, Yale says what it gets in public money is negligible: $19,957 in federal grants between 2000 and 2004. Yale says the FOIA complaint fails on all four benchmarks. Yale spokesman Tom Conroy would not discuss the case, on which a ruling is expected any day now.

The circumstances surrounding the actual arrest are unknown—because of the kid’s age, his case file is off limits. The context is not: Last year, at the height of fear over kids on bikes perpetrating random violent crimes, Chief Perrotti sent a campus-wide email urging people to call Yale police if they saw packs of kids on bikes riding through campus. Maybe someone took him up on it.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Paul on December 09, 2007, 03:59:17 pm
Wow!  I'm almost speechless at the innacuracies posted in this thread.  Almost.  I'd like to address some of the statements and mistatements made here.

First, Campus Police are trained to the same standards as all other police officers in the state of Oklahoma.  While its true that the Tulsa Police Department far exceeds the amount of initial training required for officers by the state, most departments in this state do not.  So, a Jenks Campus Police Officer does not have the same level of required initial training as an officer from TPD, but he has the exact same training as members of just about every other department in the state.  

Next, Campus Police are police, plain and simple.  We don't get to decide who is and who is not a cop, just because we like them or don't.  The laws of the State of Oklahoma are quite clear.  Campus Police differ from other police in only one respect:  jurisdiction.  Campus Police enforce laws only on the property owned, operated, or under the control of their employing agency.  The same restrictions apply to ALL police officers.  A Sand Springs officer, for example, cannot simply decide to patrol the streets of Tulsa and make arrests there.  He does not have the authority to do that.  All officers are bound by the same restrictions.  A special note here, if a Campus Police officer, or one from Sand Springs for that matter, sees a violation occur within his jurisdiction, he may chase the suspect to kingdom come, if neccessary, to take him into custody, regardless of whose jurisdiction the suspect is in when captured.  Sorry, you can't just step off the campus and yell "safe at home" and expect the chase to end with an "aw shucks".  

As far as pay goes, Tulsa Police officers start with a base salary of $33,711 per year.  That's it, no ifs ands or buts.  They may get a $1200 per year bonus for education, I don't know.  Even so, that makes the pay $34,911.  Even factoring in the clothing allowance, which is very strictly monitored and only used for department uniforms and equipment, brings the total starting salary to $35,536.  That's a far cry from the $42,000 or so one writer mentioned.  And yes, a 4 year degree is required for that department.  That's not much given the requirements.  Jenks Campus Police start at about $12 per hour or so.  With overtime and fairly regular pay raises, I doubt anyone in the department earns less than $40,000 per year.  And like almost all other Oklahoma police departments, Jenks Campus Police do not require a 4 year degree as does the TPD.  

Tulsa has to budget for over 700 officers, their equipment and uniforms, and an awful lot of infrastructure that goes with running a department of that size.  Its expensive, so some of the officers only get a new car every 4 or 5 years, with reserve officers using some pretty outdated equipment.  That's understandable.  The Jenks Campus Police now has 3 new Impalas and a new Tahoe, while retaining two old Crown Victoria Interceptors to round out the fleet.  Those will be replaced in fairly short order, as meager funds allow.  True, the equipment used by the campus officers has improved quite a bit in recent years, as has the quality and motivation of the officers.  I personally feel this is tied to the hiring of a new chief in 2004.  

Which reminds me, the Chief is a 28 year veteran of the Tulsa Police Department, where he served as an investigator, a traffic officer, and a supervisor.  In fact, he was the lead investigator in TPD's background investigations unit.  I highly doubt that campus police officers would fail to meet the background standards of the TPD, which were at least in part, formed by the new chief himself.  

Experience, you ask?  Well, two of our officers come from the Tulsa Police Reserve with years of service to that organization.  They are intimately familiar with the inner workings of the TPD, and passed the rigorous background checks and training required there.  They both have years of experience with other local agencies as full time officers.  Another officer has 12 years of experience from a major metropolitan police department in another state.  Another has 5 years experience in one of the largest metropolitan areas in our country, and has an associates degree in police science, and years of leadership experience in the U.S. military.  The Assistant Chief has worked for about 15 years for the Jenks Campus Police.  I believe he has a pretty firm grasp on the job at this point.  That's six full time officers.  They also have 4 or 5 reserve officers, all with extensive experience from other agencies in the area.

Also, I'd like to touch on accountability.  Other agencies, like the TPD, have to abide by the laws of the state, and by policies and procedures of their department and the municipalities or counties which employ them.  They also undergo public scrutiny and must answer to court rulings and orders.  The campus police officer must also labor under all those laws, rules, policies, procedures, supervisors, courts and public scrutiny.  Campus police also have to answer to the School Board, the Superintendant, and the parents and families of the 10,000 or so students attending school in Jenks.  In short, campus police officers are accountable to all the same folks as other officers, and then some.  

Campus Police have the same authority to arrest, and the same responsibility to the public as any other police officer in any other agency.  And yes, for the record, the job is different from any other agency out there.  Police in Skiatook have a much different job from those in Tulsa, Broken Arrow, or Jenks.  Every agency has its own focus, its own issues, its own personalities.  Jenks Campus Police are different from Tulsa Police in about the same way as any agency is different from any other.  They have a focus on safety and security first, the uninterrupted continuation of the education process second, and law enforcement third.  And rest assured, when an officer of the Jenks Campus Police department says, "you're under arrest", the day will end with you in the same jail you'd be in if a TPD officer said the same thing to you.  

Now, that's accurate information you can take to the bank....


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 09, 2007, 04:23:49 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Paul

Wow!  I'm almost speechless at the innacuracies posted in this thread.  Almost.  I'd like to address some of the statements and mistatements made here....

...As far as pay goes, Tulsa Police officers start with a base salary of $33,711 per year.  That's it, no ifs ands or buts...  Now, that's accurate information you can take to the bank....


Sorry to point out your innaccuracies, but you are quoting the pay while attending the Academy.

Tulsa Police officers start at $42,470.

http://www.tulsapolice.org/recruiting/salary_benefits.html


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Paul on December 10, 2007, 10:57:50 pm
You did say STARTING salary.  And that salary stays in effect during the academy, FTO program, and the probationary period, if I'm not mistaken.  That means the first year of employment, while the officer is considered a probationary employee.  So, they START their second year at $42,470.  I believe that's how it works.  If not, I stand corrected.  I know that ALL Tulsa Police Officers must attend the Tulsa Academy, regardless of experience.  That means they start at the academy pay rate, right?  

Of the many points I made, would you consider any others to be inaccurate?  You mentioned INACCURACIES, plural.  I hope you'll concede that the larger point was to clarify what a Campus Police Officer is and how they "differ" from other officers.  The previous posts on this thread were misleading on that topic.  

I think this thread started as a question about the concept of campus policing and how it might be utilized by Tulsa Public Schools.  I thought the readers should have the chance to understand what campus police do, how they are held accountable, and how they are similar and disimilar to other law enforcement agencies.

Fair enough?



Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 11, 2007, 03:31:16 pm
Fair enough for me.

I thought while you were in school you were a cadet and were not an officer until you were sworn in...but it is a minor difference. Thanks for posting information about your knowledge of campus police. We didn't have many of them when I went to school.

I took my son back to my old high school to watch a basketball game a few years ago and had to go through two metal detectors. It is clearly a different world than the one I grew up in.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TUalum0982 on December 14, 2007, 05:45:44 am
quote:
Originally posted by Paul

Wow!  I'm almost speechless at the innacuracies posted in this thread.  Almost.  I'd like to address some of the statements and mistatements made here.

First, Campus Police are trained to the same standards as all other police officers in the state of Oklahoma.  While its true that the Tulsa Police Department far exceeds the amount of initial training required for officers by the state, most departments in this state do not.  So, a Jenks Campus Police Officer does not have the same level of required initial training as an officer from TPD, but he has the exact same training as members of just about every other department in the state.  

Next, Campus Police are police, plain and simple.  We don't get to decide who is and who is not a cop, just because we like them or don't.  The laws of the State of Oklahoma are quite clear.  Campus Police differ from other police in only one respect:  jurisdiction.  Campus Police enforce laws only on the property owned, operated, or under the control of their employing agency.  The same restrictions apply to ALL police officers.  A Sand Springs officer, for example, cannot simply decide to patrol the streets of Tulsa and make arrests there.  He does not have the authority to do that.  All officers are bound by the same restrictions.  A special note here, if a Campus Police officer, or one from Sand Springs for that matter, sees a violation occur within his jurisdiction, he may chase the suspect to kingdom come, if neccessary, to take him into custody, regardless of whose jurisdiction the suspect is in when captured.  Sorry, you can't just step off the campus and yell "safe at home" and expect the chase to end with an "aw shucks".  

As far as pay goes, Tulsa Police officers start with a base salary of $33,711 per year.  That's it, no ifs ands or buts.  They may get a $1200 per year bonus for education, I don't know.  Even so, that makes the pay $34,911.  Even factoring in the clothing allowance, which is very strictly monitored and only used for department uniforms and equipment, brings the total starting salary to $35,536.  That's a far cry from the $42,000 or so one writer mentioned.  And yes, a 4 year degree is required for that department.  That's not much given the requirements.  Jenks Campus Police start at about $12 per hour or so.  With overtime and fairly regular pay raises, I doubt anyone in the department earns less than $40,000 per year.  And like almost all other Oklahoma police departments, Jenks Campus Police do not require a 4 year degree as does the TPD.  

Tulsa has to budget for over 700 officers, their equipment and uniforms, and an awful lot of infrastructure that goes with running a department of that size.  Its expensive, so some of the officers only get a new car every 4 or 5 years, with reserve officers using some pretty outdated equipment.  That's understandable.  The Jenks Campus Police now has 3 new Impalas and a new Tahoe, while retaining two old Crown Victoria Interceptors to round out the fleet.  Those will be replaced in fairly short order, as meager funds allow.  True, the equipment used by the campus officers has improved quite a bit in recent years, as has the quality and motivation of the officers.  I personally feel this is tied to the hiring of a new chief in 2004.  

Which reminds me, the Chief is a 28 year veteran of the Tulsa Police Department, where he served as an investigator, a traffic officer, and a supervisor.  In fact, he was the lead investigator in TPD's background investigations unit.  I highly doubt that campus police officers would fail to meet the background standards of the TPD, which were at least in part, formed by the new chief himself.  

Experience, you ask?  Well, two of our officers come from the Tulsa Police Reserve with years of service to that organization.  They are intimately familiar with the inner workings of the TPD, and passed the rigorous background checks and training required there.  They both have years of experience with other local agencies as full time officers.  Another officer has 12 years of experience from a major metropolitan police department in another state.  Another has 5 years experience in one of the largest metropolitan areas in our country, and has an associates degree in police science, and years of leadership experience in the U.S. military.  The Assistant Chief has worked for about 15 years for the Jenks Campus Police.  I believe he has a pretty firm grasp on the job at this point.  That's six full time officers.  They also have 4 or 5 reserve officers, all with extensive experience from other agencies in the area.

Also, I'd like to touch on accountability.  Other agencies, like the TPD, have to abide by the laws of the state, and by policies and procedures of their department and the municipalities or counties which employ them.  They also undergo public scrutiny and must answer to court rulings and orders.  The campus police officer must also labor under all those laws, rules, policies, procedures, supervisors, courts and public scrutiny.  Campus police also have to answer to the School Board, the Superintendant, and the parents and families of the 10,000 or so students attending school in Jenks.  In short, campus police officers are accountable to all the same folks as other officers, and then some.  

Campus Police have the same authority to arrest, and the same responsibility to the public as any other police officer in any other agency.  And yes, for the record, the job is different from any other agency out there.  Police in Skiatook have a much different job from those in Tulsa, Broken Arrow, or Jenks.  Every agency has its own focus, its own issues, its own personalities.  Jenks Campus Police are different from Tulsa Police in about the same way as any agency is different from any other.  They have a focus on safety and security first, the uninterrupted continuation of the education process second, and law enforcement third.  And rest assured, when an officer of the Jenks Campus Police department says, "you're under arrest", the day will end with you in the same jail you'd be in if a TPD officer said the same thing to you.  

Now, that's accurate information you can take to the bank....




I will take your "accurate information" to the bank.  TPD's website clearly states they start at $42,470.  Which is a mere 30 dollars off of what I said in an earlier post of $42,500.  While training in the Academy you make $3217.44 which is some $38,000 dollars if my math is correct.  Dont believe me, check it out for yourself...

http://www.tulsapolice.org/recruiting/salary_benefits.html

Now as for the training, all police departments arent trained the same in this state. OHP is trained to higher standards then Tulsa.  Dont believe me, go try and test for them.  Out of almost 1200 applicants about 2yrs ago, only 40 had completed the initial endurance test and passed the background test.

You talk about jurisdiction, anyone with half a brain should know that Tulsa PD only has jurisdiction within the city limits of Tulsa and the Tulsa County Sheriffs office only has jurisdiction in Tulsa County.  

Now some counties/cities are cross deputized with certain Indian tribes and vise versa but thats a whole other discussion in and of itself.

Sure glad I didnt take that money to the bank, they would arrest me for it being counterfiet if you catch my drift....


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Paul on December 30, 2007, 11:40:36 am
The last post here makes me wonder if someone has their panties in a knot.  He sounds angry, doesn't he?  

I did get my information from the Tulsa Police website.  Apparently, you didn't actually read what I had to say on the topic of officer pay.  It's okay, I'll restate it.  No one can "start" at the TPD as an officer, regardless of their background.  They must start at the academy as an Apprentice Police Officer.  That's everyone, no exceptions I've ever heard of.  The academy is approximately 6 months long.  So, I guess you could say that "Tulsa Police Officers" start at that higher wage, but only after they've been employed by the department for at least 6 months as trainees.  So, it is a little misleading, a problem you seem very interested in glossing over.  

I also stated pretty clearly that it is irrelevant, as was most of the original commentary comparing TPD to Jenks Campus Police.  They are not the same animal.  They are not designed to do the same things.  All agencies are different.  All agencies have different missions, purposes, organization.  

As far as training goes, fewer than ten agencies in the entire state of Oklahoma are authorized to conduct their own academy.  That leaves well over ninety percent of all law enforcement officers in the state trained directly by the state at the state's academy.  The other (less than) ten percent must meet all the same standards as officers trained at the state academy, but they may also add to the program by training officers to certain standards specific to their own departments.  Most officers trained at the state's academy, then must undergo a few weeks of classroom training at their own departments so they can learn departmental procedures, regulations, equipment, organization, and forms.  All those things are different in each department.  Then, the new officer starts the FTO program.  TPD and some other agencies simply cut out the middle man by keeping the officers in the training environment to learn all those things.  And yes, TPD does train their officers better than the state academy does.  So does the Highway Patrol, where the academy is no where near as all-encompassing as TPD's academy.  I've audited blocks of instruction in both places, as well as several other academies throughout the U.S.  In my humble opinion, TPD is a step above OHP in their initial training. OHP probably runs a little more and has more rigorous physical training standards.  That's about 5 percent of the job, though, so it doesn't really keep pace with the rest of the training TPD undergoes.  Again, my opinion.  And just for the record, hiring standards have little or nothing to do with training standards.  In some agencies, the standards for hiring an officer are higher simply because they don't want to take a lot of time training them.  They look for people who are already expereinced or especially quick to learn new processes.  The number of applicants has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of people hired.  The state was authorized by law to employ a specific number of OHP troopers.  They hired enough people to keep the numbers at statutory levels.  If 42 people applied, or 42,000, they still would have hired the same number.  

I especially enjoyed the "half a brain" jibe concerning jurisdiction.  Most people have no idea what the word even means, yourself included I strongly suspect.  I'm sorry you feel so inadequate in your arguments that you feel the need to belittle others involved in the dialogue.  That is reflective of the value of your argument, I'm afraid.  Most people have no idea at all what the "jurisdiction" of the campus police is or whether or not campus police are actually police like any others.  Many people suffer from the misconception that campus police are not actually police, but are really some kind of private security agency with very limited arrest powers.  That is inaccurate and I hope my contribution to the dialogue led to a better understanding of the fact that campus police are, in fact, police, just like any other police officers in any other department.  

I also liked your quip early in the dialogue regarding campus police only training for two days a year at the range.  Ludicrous, of course.  As stated, campus police attend the same academy that more than ninety percent of officers in the state attend.  The state also requres at least 25 hours of continuing training every year to maintain certification.  That's for all officers in the state.  I personally know that officers of the Jenks Campus Police annually complete many more hours of state approved law enforcement related training than many supervisors with TPD.  I know this personally and absolutely.  At least one patrol officer in the campus police, not a supervisor, completed a couple of hundred hours of training in just one year.  And the level of training the regular officers of the campus police receive is routinely the same level of training chiefs of police and senior administrators receive in other agencies.  On some topics, even TPD sergeants and captains are not trained to half the standards as the regular officers in the campus police.  Again, this is a focus issue.  Campus police don't go to SWAT school or learn to safely dismantle meth labs.  That training has no relevance to their mission.  But, when you look at things like critical incident management, crisis intervention, community policing, and a host of other topics, the campus police in Jenks are far better trained than most supervisors in most agencies anywhere in the state of Oklahoma.  

You stated that you know "quite a bit about TPD."  I don't doubt that you've heard lots of shop talk, probably from friends or relatives in the department.  Good for you.  Now, take a step back, take a breath or two, and look at the entire picture.  I don't know why you're so ticked off, or why you feel the need to bash an entire organization you clearly know nothing about.  I don't even care why, as a matter of fact.  The reason is irrelevant.  

I do know a few things you should find important.  You identify yourself as an alumnist of the University of Tulsa.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  I have lived in Tulsa for quite some time now, I have several relatives who graduated from that esteemed institution, and I know they would all take offense at your rantings.  You clearly have not researched the matter you are discussing.  You clearly are not reading the entries to which you are responding.  You clearly have a grasp of the English language which is far more limited than it should be with your stated educational background.  And you fume and jibe at your counterparts in the conversation with little irrelevancies and derisive commentary.  This misbehavior is not worthy of a TU alum.  

Before you put to paper any further misinformed opinions about the Jenks Campus Police, why don't you just give them a call.  They're in the phone book.  Maybe they'd even let you come out and take a look around, see who works for them and what they do with their day.  Then you'd have a better idea what you're talking about.  Once you've done that, maybe you can enlighten the rest of the readers here by telling us what you learned.  I think you'll be surprised....



Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TUalum0982 on December 30, 2007, 01:10:30 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Paul

The last post here makes me wonder if someone has their panties in a knot.  He sounds angry, doesn't he?  

I did get my information from the Tulsa Police website.  Apparently, you didn't actually read what I had to say on the topic of officer pay.  It's okay, I'll restate it.  No one can "start" at the TPD as an officer, regardless of their background.  They must start at the academy as an Apprentice Police Officer.  That's everyone, no exceptions I've ever heard of.  The academy is approximately 6 months long.  So, I guess you could say that "Tulsa Police Officers" start at that higher wage, but only after they've been employed by the department for at least 6 months as trainees.  So, it is a little misleading, a problem you seem very interested in glossing over.  

I also stated pretty clearly that it is irrelevant, as was most of the original commentary comparing TPD to Jenks Campus Police.  They are not the same animal.  They are not designed to do the same things.  All agencies are different.  All agencies have different missions, purposes, organization.  

As far as training goes, fewer than ten agencies in the entire state of Oklahoma are authorized to conduct their own academy.  That leaves well over ninety percent of all law enforcement officers in the state trained directly by the state at the state's academy.  The other (less than) ten percent must meet all the same standards as officers trained at the state academy, but they may also add to the program by training officers to certain standards specific to their own departments.  Most officers trained at the state's academy, then must undergo a few weeks of classroom training at their own departments so they can learn departmental procedures, regulations, equipment, organization, and forms.  All those things are different in each department.  Then, the new officer starts the FTO program.  TPD and some other agencies simply cut out the middle man by keeping the officers in the training environment to learn all those things.  And yes, TPD does train their officers better than the state academy does.  So does the Highway Patrol, where the academy is no where near as all-encompassing as TPD's academy.  I've audited blocks of instruction in both places, as well as several other academies throughout the U.S.  In my humble opinion, TPD is a step above OHP in their initial training. OHP probably runs a little more and has more rigorous physical training standards.  That's about 5 percent of the job, though, so it doesn't really keep pace with the rest of the training TPD undergoes.  Again, my opinion.  And just for the record, hiring standards have little or nothing to do with training standards.  In some agencies, the standards for hiring an officer are higher simply because they don't want to take a lot of time training them.  They look for people who are already expereinced or especially quick to learn new processes.  The number of applicants has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of people hired.  The state was authorized by law to employ a specific number of OHP troopers.  They hired enough people to keep the numbers at statutory levels.  If 42 people applied, or 42,000, they still would have hired the same number.  

I especially enjoyed the "half a brain" jibe concerning jurisdiction.  Most people have no idea what the word even means, yourself included I strongly suspect.  I'm sorry you feel so inadequate in your arguments that you feel the need to belittle others involved in the dialogue.  That is reflective of the value of your argument, I'm afraid.  Most people have no idea at all what the "jurisdiction" of the campus police is or whether or not campus police are actually police like any others.  Many people suffer from the misconception that campus police are not actually police, but are really some kind of private security agency with very limited arrest powers.  That is inaccurate and I hope my contribution to the dialogue led to a better understanding of the fact that campus police are, in fact, police, just like any other police officers in any other department.  

I also liked your quip early in the dialogue regarding campus police only training for two days a year at the range.  Ludicrous, of course.  As stated, campus police attend the same academy that more than ninety percent of officers in the state attend.  The state also requres at least 25 hours of continuing training every year to maintain certification.  That's for all officers in the state.  I personally know that officers of the Jenks Campus Police annually complete many more hours of state approved law enforcement related training than many supervisors with TPD.  I know this personally and absolutely.  At least one patrol officer in the campus police, not a supervisor, completed a couple of hundred hours of training in just one year.  And the level of training the regular officers of the campus police receive is routinely the same level of training chiefs of police and senior administrators receive in other agencies.  On some topics, even TPD sergeants and captains are not trained to half the standards as the regular officers in the campus police.  Again, this is a focus issue.  Campus police don't go to SWAT school or learn to safely dismantle meth labs.  That training has no relevance to their mission.  But, when you look at things like critical incident management, crisis intervention, community policing, and a host of other topics, the campus police in Jenks are far better trained than most supervisors in most agencies anywhere in the state of Oklahoma.  

You stated that you know "quite a bit about TPD."  I don't doubt that you've heard lots of shop talk, probably from friends or relatives in the department.  Good for you.  Now, take a step back, take a breath or two, and look at the entire picture.  I don't know why you're so ticked off, or why you feel the need to bash an entire organization you clearly know nothing about.  I don't even care why, as a matter of fact.  The reason is irrelevant.  

I do know a few things you should find important.  You identify yourself as an alumnist of the University of Tulsa.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  I have lived in Tulsa for quite some time now, I have several relatives who graduated from that esteemed institution, and I know they would all take offense at your rantings.  You clearly have not researched the matter you are discussing.  You clearly are not reading the entries to which you are responding.  You clearly have a grasp of the English language which is far more limited than it should be with your stated educational background.  And you fume and jibe at your counterparts in the conversation with little irrelevancies and derisive commentary.  This misbehavior is not worthy of a TU alum.  

Before you put to paper any further misinformed opinions about the Jenks Campus Police, why don't you just give them a call.  They're in the phone book.  Maybe they'd even let you come out and take a look around, see who works for them and what they do with their day.  Then you'd have a better idea what you're talking about.  Once you've done that, maybe you can enlighten the rest of the readers here by telling us what you learned.  I think you'll be surprised....





First off, I wanted to start off I proved your salary amounts wrong in an earlier post, apparently you didnt read it correctly, so I will explain it again for you so maybe you can understand.  Starting out in the academy, you get paid 3217.44 PER MONTH.  Lets pretend they stay in the academy the entire year (I KNOW THEY DONT) that would bring their salary to $38,609.28.  See what I did there? Now your earlier "accurate information that anyone could take to the bank" is actually inaccurate. Correct??

Now your first year out of FTO status (patrol officer) your starting pay is $42,470.16.  I dont know how I can make this any more clearer for you.  

2.  Lets tackle Jurisdiction.  I will explain myself for you once again.  Anyone who has a valid drivers license should know that Tulsa Police Officers do not have jurisdiction in Los Angeles California, Chicago, Illinois or New York. Is that clear enough? Just like officers from those cities would not have jurisdiction in Tulsa.  Now IMO anyone with "half a brain" would know and understand that.

3.  "My quip about campus police training" is being misunderstood.  Not once did I ever say thats the only training they receive.  I was simply stating that from reading an article in an earlier post( in this thread) that TPD while in the academy go through more extensive handgun and range training.  Not once did I ever say thats the only training they receive.

3.  I have been around TPD for 8 years now (since I was a senior in HS).  I have gone on numerous ride alongs with them.  I also interned with them for 2yrs while in college.  I worked closely with homicide detectives, sex crimes, robbery, sat in on the academy with cadets, academy instructors, SOT (formerly SWAT)instructors, and did patrol with different patrol officers from each division (UDE, UDN, UDSW) respectively.  I have an uncle who is an attorney in the DA's office and several close family members who are associated with TCSO.  I would say my knowledge of their department is pretty accurate.  This is probably before your time in Tulsa, but Drew Diamond (the former TPD Chief of Police) was our neighbor next door (go ahead and laugh, I can hear it already!)

4.  I dont know why I should be ashamed of myself for simply pointing out your inaccuracies of TPD.  My rantings are simply knowledge that I wanted to pass on to this board because of the inaccuaries you posted above. I am glad your family members are ALUM of TU because its a great instituion, I am sorry however they would take offense to the accurate and credible information being passed along above.  

The only person I am "fuming and jibing" with is you.  I correctly pointed out your inaccurate information that was being passed off as truthful, which in fact, is not!

5.  I am having a hard time understanding, this "misbehavior" you talk about.  I am an oustanding citizen of this fine community I call home.  If you care to challenge that, please let me know and I will give you some my background info and credentials.  Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt one of the reasons many kids go off to college is "to find themselves and what they are about" aside from the obvious reason of gettin an education?  Now then, what type of society would we live if everyone that were a TU Alum all had the same habits, manners, worked the same job, had the same beliefs, values, morals, etc.  We would be living in a rather shallow and dull world wouldnt we Sir/Mam?


6.  Now please explain to me my "misinformed opinons" about the Jenks Campus Police.  I graduated from Jenks, I know who they are, what they do, what they stand for, how they operate, etc etc.  I have no beef with them, while in school I found them rather refreshing.  In the day of Columbine, everyone wondered could it happen here.  It very well could have, but they were always around and very aware of the surroundings. Do they throw around their power sometimes? you bet they do, especially when some high school punk trys to show them up and look cool in front of his friends.

You may not agree with my opinions, beliefs, and thoughts, but dont sit there and pretend to be the internet police.  I shouldnt be ashamed for anything I said in any earlier posts because I posted factual information that was accurate and taken directly from their website. I proved your "accurate information that you can take to the bank" is in fact inaccurate and undeniably wrong!

Now if I hurt you or your family members feelings or if think of me as misbehaving and shameful, that is totally their right and I apologize in advance.  But just like I have my right to voice my opinion, they must live a very sheltered life.

Now what is your beef with me Sir/Mam?


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Paul on December 30, 2007, 03:11:21 pm
http://www.copjobs.com/POLICE%20DEPARTMENT%20JOB%20OPENINGS.htm

TULSA P.D.     918-591-4521    
FAX: 918-596-9330    www.tulsapolice.org
Human Resources Department
City of Tulsa
200 Civic Center
Tulsa, OK 74103
Population: 367,302
Apprentice Police Officer: Must be 21-45 yoa, be U.S. citizen and reside in the Tulsa Metropolitan area once hired. May not have been convicted of a felony or a crime of moral turpitude. Must have completed a Bachelor's degree with a C+ average or better at an accredited college. No military hours or credits are accepted unless they are received from or converted through an accredited college. Vision must be corrected to 20//20 in one eye and at least 20/40 in the other eye. Contact lenses and glasses are acceptable. Hearing must be normal in both ears. No hearing aid devices will be accepted.  Written test and a physical agility test are given the first Tuesday of each Month at 6066 E. 66th Street North, Tulsa, OK, promptly at 8:00am. Bring original college transcripts, photo ID, and athletic wear. Test takes approximately five hours. Starting salary: $33,711/yr. Clothing allowance: $625/yr.
 



Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Wilbur on December 30, 2007, 05:58:49 pm
quote:
2. Lets tackle Jurisdiction. I will explain myself for you once again. Anyone who has a valid drivers license should know that Tulsa Police Officers do not have jurisdiction in Los Angeles California, Chicago, Illinois or New York. Is that clear enough? Just like officers from those cities would not have jurisdiction in Tulsa. Now IMO anyone with "half a brain" would know and understand that.

That is not entirely correct.  Actually, some officers who work along with federal agencies on some task forces do have federal jurisdiction, meaning they do have jurisdiction in all those cities you mentioned.  

Tribal nations are also another problem of jurisdiction.  Tulsa cross-deputizes with the Creeks because of the casino, but jurisdictional issues are still confusing because jurisdiction ends up being determined by the race of the victim and the race of the suspect.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TUalum0982 on December 30, 2007, 08:57:10 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:
2. Lets tackle Jurisdiction. I will explain myself for you once again. Anyone who has a valid drivers license should know that Tulsa Police Officers do not have jurisdiction in Los Angeles California, Chicago, Illinois or New York. Is that clear enough? Just like officers from those cities would not have jurisdiction in Tulsa. Now IMO anyone with "half a brain" would know and understand that.

That is not entirely correct.  Actually, some officers who work along with federal agencies on some task forces do have federal jurisdiction, meaning they do have jurisdiction in all those cities you mentioned.  

Tribal nations are also another problem of jurisdiction.  Tulsa cross-deputizes with the Creeks because of the casino, but jurisdictional issues are still confusing because jurisdiction ends up being determined by the race of the victim and the race of the suspect.



I mentioned cross deputization in an earlier post.  I also was speaking solely of TPD officers.  We all know federal marshalls, ATF, and other federal agencies have jurisdiction everywhere.  I was solely speaking about TPD officers in other cities. There are of course exceptions to every rule, just like the one you mentioned above.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TUalum0982 on December 30, 2007, 08:58:25 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Paul

http://www.copjobs.com/POLICE%20DEPARTMENT%20JOB%20OPENINGS.htm

TULSA P.D.     918-591-4521    
FAX: 918-596-9330    www.tulsapolice.org
Human Resources Department
City of Tulsa
200 Civic Center
Tulsa, OK 74103
Population: 367,302
Apprentice Police Officer: Must be 21-45 yoa, be U.S. citizen and reside in the Tulsa Metropolitan area once hired. May not have been convicted of a felony or a crime of moral turpitude. Must have completed a Bachelor's degree with a C+ average or better at an accredited college. No military hours or credits are accepted unless they are received from or converted through an accredited college. Vision must be corrected to 20//20 in one eye and at least 20/40 in the other eye. Contact lenses and glasses are acceptable. Hearing must be normal in both ears. No hearing aid devices will be accepted.  Written test and a physical agility test are given the first Tuesday of each Month at 6066 E. 66th Street North, Tulsa, OK, promptly at 8:00am. Bring original college transcripts, photo ID, and athletic wear. Test takes approximately five hours. Starting salary: $33,711/yr. Clothing allowance: $625/yr.
 





I personally would trust the actual police website vs any 3rd party site to quote actual pay.  Check your own link above for yourself.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Wilbur on December 31, 2007, 07:04:15 am
quote:
Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:
2. Lets tackle Jurisdiction. I will explain myself for you once again. Anyone who has a valid drivers license should know that Tulsa Police Officers do not have jurisdiction in Los Angeles California, Chicago, Illinois or New York. Is that clear enough? Just like officers from those cities would not have jurisdiction in Tulsa. Now IMO anyone with "half a brain" would know and understand that.

That is not entirely correct.  Actually, some officers who work along with federal agencies on some task forces do have federal jurisdiction, meaning they do have jurisdiction in all those cities you mentioned.  

Tribal nations are also another problem of jurisdiction.  Tulsa cross-deputizes with the Creeks because of the casino, but jurisdictional issues are still confusing because jurisdiction ends up being determined by the race of the victim and the race of the suspect.



I mentioned cross deputization in an earlier post.  I also was speaking solely of TPD officers.  We all know federal marshalls, ATF, and other federal agencies have jurisdiction everywhere.  I was solely speaking about TPD officers in other cities. There are of course exceptions to every rule, just like the one you mentioned above.


I'm also only referring to TPD officers.  Some TPD officers serve on federal task forces, thus they have the same jurisdiction has federal officers.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on January 04, 2008, 02:17:50 pm
Before this thread was hijacked to showcase how well trained school guards are, it was about how their accountability stacked up against traditional officers, and the secrecy some school police departments operate in.  To bring us up to date:

U.S. Marshals arrested a security guard at Wagoner High School for the alleged Sept. 1 rape of a student there.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=12&articleID=20080104_1_A5_pbAma38574


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on April 10, 2008, 10:44:00 pm
Instant Riot: Just add Pepper Spray and agitate vigorously.
(note the very liberal use of the catch phrase "gang related")

A student fight at McLain High School for Science and Technology on Thursday began with a few girls but turned into a melee that required intervention by Tulsa police.

One 15-year-old female student was arrested, and a 17-year-old girl was treated by EMSA after she was pepper-sprayed by school security, said Leland Ashley, spokesman for the Tulsa Police Department.
The incident may have been gang-related, he said. Tami Marler, spokeswoman for Tulsa Public Schools, said the disturbance began between classes, with four or five girls in a verbal exchange near the school's main entrance.  "It's an ongoing neighborhood dispute between two groups of girls. It started out with a verbal altercation and then escalated into a physical altercation," she said.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Wilbur on April 11, 2008, 06:09:18 am
quote:
Originally posted by patric

Before this thread was hijacked to showcase how well trained school guards are, it was about how their accountability stacked up against traditional officers, and the secrecy some school police departments operate in.  To bring us up to date:

U.S. Marshals arrested a security guard at Wagoner High School for the alleged Sept. 1 rape of a student there.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=12&articleID=20080104_1_A5_pbAma38574



Not sure how a security guard getting arrested has anything to do with accountability of a school district that has its own police force.  Those are two very different things.

Security guards are private citizens with no power of enforcement or arrest.  A school with a sanctioned police force have the same police powers as any other police force.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on April 11, 2008, 10:16:59 am
quote:

Instant Riot: Just add Pepper Spray and agitate vigorously.
(note the very liberal use of the catch phrase "gang related")

A student fight at McLain High School for Science and Technology on Thursday began with a few girls but turned into a melee that required intervention by Tulsa police.

One 15-year-old female student was arrested, and a 17-year-old girl was treated by EMSA after she was pepper-sprayed by school security, said Leland Ashley, spokesman for the Tulsa Police Department.
The incident may have been gang-related, he said. Tami Marler, spokeswoman for Tulsa Public Schools, said the disturbance began between classes, with four or five girls in a verbal exchange near the school's main entrance.  "It's an ongoing neighborhood dispute between two groups of girls. It started out with a verbal altercation and then escalated into a physical altercation," she said.




I had a chance to read Tami Marler's press release regarding the disturbance.  The soft-peddled description of the girl who was choked by campus guards with Mace being brushed off as "a student having breathing trouble" doesnt instill me with much confidence in the honesty or integrity of the TPS leadership.

Without real accountability, I would expect them to be less than forthcoming about much worse things in the future.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: MH2010 on April 11, 2008, 11:29:44 am
Tami Marler, spokeswoman for Tulsa Public Schools, said the disturbance began between classes, with four or five girls in a verbal exchange near the school's main entrance. "It's an ongoing neighborhood dispute between two groups of girls. It started out with a verbal altercation and then escalated into a physical altercation," she said.

This could be translated to, "It was a gang fight between two rival sets.  The fight escalated to where TPS security was outnumbered and had to call TPD. During the fight, TPS security peppersprayed the one that decided to fight TPS security."


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on April 11, 2008, 02:30:07 pm
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010

This could be translated to, "It was a gang fight between two rival sets.  The fight escalated to where TPS security was outnumbered and had to call TPD. During the fight, TPS security peppersprayed the one that decided to fight TPS security."


I guess you could come up with any scenario you want if the facts dont get in the way, but since the girl that was injured wasnt the same girl that was arrested your particular scenario wont work.

The sore spot in all this is that the only weapons or injuries in all this stem directly from the actions of the school security, and the TPS mouthpiece failing to take ownership of that fact.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: MH2010 on April 11, 2008, 03:11:21 pm
quote:
Originally posted by patric

quote:
Originally posted by MH2010

This could be translated to, "It was a gang fight between two rival sets.  The fight escalated to where TPS security was outnumbered and had to call TPD. During the fight, TPS security peppersprayed the one that decided to fight TPS security."


I guess you could come up with any scenario you want if the facts dont get in the way, but since the girl that was injured wasnt the same girl that was arrested your particular scenario wont work.

The sore spot in all this is that the only weapons or injuries in all this stem directly from the actions of the school security, and the TPS mouthpiece failing to take ownership of that fact.



I know it was a fight between the 4-duece and the hoover crips.  The female was arrested for assault and battery on a police officer and enciting a riot.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: RecycleMichael on April 11, 2008, 04:01:23 pm
I have joined a gang of environmentalists. We are called gang green.


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on April 21, 2008, 10:29:46 am
Rather than have regular police over schools, TPS needs people who will do a better job of keeping things hush-hush.

Even the Tulsa Whirled has commented:  

Tulsa Public Schools has its own police chief now. Why? Superintendent Michael Zolkoski has publicly said he needs his own cops to maintain school order without public scrutiny.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectID=265&articleID=20080419_7_G6_spanc26268

''We have too many fights in school. I would never tell the media this, but we have a lot, a lot of fights. We've got to stop this,'' he said in 2007. Then in an apparent reference to the media, he added that he wants the district to have its own police radio frequency, ''so everybody in town doesn't race over to Edison (Preparatory School) every time a trash can is on fire.''


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on June 14, 2008, 09:45:41 am
University Of Missouri Police Officer Admits To Child Molestation And Child Pornography While Applying To Rolla Police Department (http://"http://www.badcopnews.com/2008/06/14/genius-university-of-missouri-police-officer-leonard-j-cook-admits-to-child-molestation-and-child-pornography-during-polygraph-exam-while-applying-to-rolla-police-department/")


Title: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Friendly Bear on June 16, 2008, 11:47:08 am
quote:
Originally posted by patric

Rather than have regular police over schools, TPS needs people who will do a better job of keeping things hush-hush.

Even the Tulsa Whirled has commented:  

Tulsa Public Schools has its own police chief now. Why? Superintendent Michael Zolkoski has publicly said he needs his own cops to maintain school order without public scrutiny.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectID=265&articleID=20080419_7_G6_spanc26268

''We have too many fights in school. I would never tell the media this, but we have a lot, a lot of fights. We've got to stop this,'' he said in 2007. Then in an apparent reference to the media, he added that he wants the district to have its own police radio frequency, ''so everybody in town doesn't race over to Edison (Preparatory School) every time a trash can is on fire.''




Campus police are not independent investigators of crimes.

They are under the control of the school administration, and as such, can be ordered to sweep crimes under the rug to avoid bad publicity.

Or, if ordered to do so because a parent with clout pressures the school administration.

Public schools may need security guards.  Security guards should not be unilaterally turned into police.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on May 27, 2014, 10:37:36 pm
My, how the teen makeout scene has changed over the years...



TULSA, Okla. –A Tulsa Public Schools police officer is on paid leave for firing his gun at a car in which teens were messing around.

It happened over the weekend on the campus of Eliot Elementary School near 36th Street and South Peoria.
“Two young people probably doing something that they shouldn’t have been doing in the parking lot,” TPS official Chris Payne said.

Payne said their officer went to the car and started asking questions, but the driver didn’t want to answer.
“[He] tried to get away in the car, and apparently [the officer] shot at the vehicle,” Payne told FOX23.

TPS has turned the investigation over to the Tulsa Police Department.
Detectives said there is evidence to show the officer did indeed shoot and hit the car one time in the back left tire.

The 17-year-old boy told investigators he just wanted to leave, and that was the reason he drove off.
The officer said he felt threatened by that move and fired the shot.

Payne emphasized his officer’s right to the gun.

http://www.fox23.com/mostpopular/story/Police-investigate-shot-fired-by-Tulsa-Public/qxHtUrUnik2D2lSeYHJSGA.cspx


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Conan71 on May 28, 2014, 07:27:30 am
My, how the teen makeout scene has changed over the years...



TULSA, Okla. –A Tulsa Public Schools police officer is on paid leave for firing his gun at a car in which teens were messing around.

It happened over the weekend on the campus of Eliot Elementary School near 36th Street and South Peoria.
“Two young people probably doing something that they shouldn’t have been doing in the parking lot,” TPS official Chris Payne said.

Payne said their officer went to the car and started asking questions, but the driver didn’t want to answer.
“[He] tried to get away in the car, and apparently [the officer] shot at the vehicle,” Payne told FOX23.

TPS has turned the investigation over to the Tulsa Police Department.
Detectives said there is evidence to show the officer did indeed shoot and hit the car one time in the back left tire.

The 17-year-old boy told investigators he just wanted to leave, and that was the reason he drove off.
The officer said he felt threatened by that move and fired the shot.

Payne emphasized his officer’s right to the gun.

http://www.fox23.com/mostpopular/story/Police-investigate-shot-fired-by-Tulsa-Public/qxHtUrUnik2D2lSeYHJSGA.cspx


Sounds like a serious lack of training.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on May 28, 2014, 10:20:00 am
Sounds like a serious lack of training.

Training was all the TPS spokesman talked about.  Maybe it's today's attitudes towards force.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Conan71 on May 28, 2014, 10:38:40 am
Training was all the TPS spokesman talked about.  Maybe it's today's attitudes towards force.

I don’t think so.  I called the cops out on my crazy new neighbor a few weeks ago when I was awakened to hammering either on or near my privacy fence.  A verbal confrontation ensued then she started waving a hammer at me and going off in a spittle (literally spitting at me) tirade.  I backed off, called 911 and they dispatched two cops.  Not long after the first officer arrived, against his orders, she picked up a saw and started waving it at him.  It looked like he was starting to reach for something on his belt as he backed away from her.  He eventually got her calmed down.  Later, we asked about the incident with the saw and he said he was reaching for his taser if needed to subdue her.

We asked what the problem seemed to be, aside from her drinking at 5am, and he said “She’s bat crap crazy”.  

So, I don’t think they are spring-loaded to react with their service pistol.  At least TPD seems to have had good training on how to diffuse angry confrontations without wounding a subject.

As far as the crazy neighbor, she’s been keeping to herself ever since.  She was nailing a cross to the tree that straddles our property.  She’s a strange one indeed.

As far as the TPS “officer” involved shooting:  A suspect driving away from an officer does not constitute an immediate threat to the officer.  Sounds like he panicked.  If the car were speeding toward him, absolutely within logic to fire and try to stop the driver.  The whole TPD police farce er force is still a little puzzling to me.  They don’t actually have officers stationed at every school do they?  I could see that as a deterrent to school massacres, but a roving band of police wannabes is a bit disturbing if they are not well trained as appears in the Eliot situation.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on May 28, 2014, 01:22:20 pm
As far as the TPD “officer” involved shooting:  A suspect driving away from an officer does not constitute an immediate threat to the officer.  Sounds like he panicked.  If the car were speeding toward him, absolutely within logic to fire and try to stop the driver.  The whole TPD police farce er force is still a little puzzling to me.  They don’t actually have officers stationed at every school do they?  I could see that as a deterrent to school massacres, but a roving band of police wannabes is a bit disturbing if they are not well trained as appears in the Eliot situation.

The PIO handouts say TPS secuirity has the same training and authority as "real" cops; the right to have guns and defend themselves etc.  so perhaps a different mindset (they exist for a much different reason).  Maybe the recent backshooting by another security guard is framing my perception, but this seems more a response to an insult.  The "I felt threatened" card is played too often lately.

Also, in its day, Columbine was a model of school security.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: nathanm on May 29, 2014, 02:05:45 pm
As far as the TPS “officer” involved shooting:  A suspect driving away from an officer does not constitute an immediate threat to the officer.  Sounds like he panicked.  If the car were speeding toward him, absolutely within logic to fire and try to stop the driver.

I'm not sure how shooting a driver in the face stops a car. Seems to me the best course of action in that situation is to get out of the way and then call in the chopper.

In reality, it's now considered OK for an officer to fire at a person fleeing in a vehicle whether it is moving towards the officer or away. You or I would get thrown in prison for shooting someone who didn't present an immediate threat, but we're not cops. Ah, the unintended consequences of redefining the term "deadly weapon" to include things like boots and cars and golf clubs.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Vashta Nerada on May 31, 2014, 05:10:45 pm
I'm not sure how shooting a driver in the face stops a car. Seems to me the best course of action in that situation is to get out of the way and then call in the chopper.

In reality, it's now considered OK for an officer to fire at a person fleeing in a vehicle whether it is moving towards the officer or away. You or I would get thrown in prison for shooting someone who didn't present an immediate threat, but we're not cops.

Maybe if the standards for school security guards weren't so atrociously low:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/video-shows-california-high-school-security-guard-attack-handicapped-student-article-1.1811485

I love how the TPS spokesman makes CLEET certification sound less like a work permit and more like some magical way to weed out the sociopaths.



Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 31, 2015, 09:33:04 pm
Campus cops are shadowy, militarized and more powerful than ever.

In some cases, these police agencies are “public” enough to be empowered to make arrests, conduct searches and use lethal force but are “private” enough to be exempt from public records laws.  And just like their colleagues in municipal law enforcement, campus police departments have been supplementing their arsenals with hardware designed for war. According to the New York Times, as of last year more than 100 colleges had acquired surplus military equipment including assault rifles, armored vehicles and at least one grenade launcher through the Department of Defense...Some campus PDs even have their own SWAT teams.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/07/09/campus-cops-are-shadowy-militarized-and-more-powerful-than-ever/?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000056


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Vashta Nerada on August 07, 2015, 07:17:43 pm

City Of Cincinnati Terminates UCPD Patrols After Suspicious Spike In Minority Traffic Stops


http://newsone.com/3165051/cincinnati-terminates-ucpd-minority-traffic-stops/



Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on September 17, 2015, 05:12:48 pm
More Texas crazy:

There is a line between acting out of an abundance of caution and entering the theater of the absurd. Authorities in Irving, Texas, appear to have barreled across that line this week when they mistook a student-made clock for a fake bomb and marched a handcuffed 14-year-old freshman, Ahmed Muhamed, out of school and into juvenile detention.

"Under Texas law, a person is guilty of possessing a hoax bomb if he possesses a device that is intended to cause anyone to be alarmed or a reaction of any type by law enforcement officers," Irving, Texas police Chief Larry Boyd said.


...which is interpreted that the over-reaction by police in and of itself made it a crime.  Sort of a self-fulfilling felony.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-clock-20150917-story.html


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Townsend on September 18, 2015, 11:24:41 am
More Texas crazy:

There is a line between acting out of an abundance of caution and entering the theater of the absurd. Authorities in Irving, Texas, appear to have barreled across that line this week when they mistook a student-made clock for a fake bomb and marched a handcuffed 14-year-old freshman, Ahmed Muhamed, out of school and into juvenile detention.

"Under Texas law, a person is guilty of possessing a hoax bomb if he possesses a device that is intended to cause anyone to be alarmed or a reaction of any type by law enforcement officers," Irving, Texas police Chief Larry Boyd said.


...which is interpreted that the over-reaction by police in and of itself made it a crime.  Sort of a self-fulfilling felony.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-clock-20150917-story.html

So the clock alarmed them?

(http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Wakka+wakka+motha++_683779f12fc9d64479f973845914e219.jpg)


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TheArtist on September 18, 2015, 12:59:39 pm
So the clock alarmed them?

(http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Wakka+wakka+motha++_683779f12fc9d64479f973845914e219.jpg)

+1 lol


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 26, 2015, 06:53:44 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq4BR5KHuqA&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TeeDub on October 27, 2015, 09:59:41 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq4BR5KHuqA&feature=youtu.be

She was asked....  Then told to leave the classroom.   (Before the officer was even called to the classroom.)   

While it was not handled well, what are the alternatives?   You would have complained if he tased her as well.    How do you get her to comply?   

I'm not sure I like the way it was handled either, but if she would have left the classroom ANY of the times she was asked, it wouldn't have gotten there.   


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 27, 2015, 01:26:00 pm
BUZZ - wrong answer T Dub.

"They should have just complied" is not an excuse. I couldn't use that kind of force on my child in a public place if my teenage son was lipping off to me without being arrested for child abuse. But it is OK for an employee of the school to do so?

The rule is NEVER "just shut up and do what you are told or we can do whatever we want."  The officer is the government agent. The officer is the professional. The officer is the one with training and access to resources to handle difficult situations. It shouldn't be the officer that resorts to this sort of action.

If the girl was posing a threat, do you have to do. But she was being a noncompliant jerk. That is not uncommon for teenagers. One has to imagine there are better ways of handling the situation or we would hear this on the news daily. That said - it appears the teacher and officer exhausted more calm alternatives and did need to escalate it somehow. Most often the kids desk is simply ragged out into the hallway and the obnoxious behavior can continue there - while the rest of the class moves on.

In this instance it appears to me the officer was trying to remove her from the desk with some force, but it doesn't appear he tried to tip her over backwards. He didn't know her leg was locked around the desk and thus was not anticipating the desk flipping over. When he did try to remove her and the desk fell, he probably felt the need to control the situation before it escalated further (that is, the level of force he ended up using caught him off guard and he feared retaliation).  But, unintended consequences are a risk of sudden uses of force.

I think this could have been handled better, but I don't think it is a situation where the officer came in with a "bust some heads" attitude.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on October 27, 2015, 01:37:23 pm
BUZZ - wrong answer T Dub.

"They should have just complied" is not an excuse. I couldn't use that kind of force on my child in a public place if my teenage son was lipping off to me without being arrested for child abuse. But it is OK for an employee of the school to do so?

The rule is NEVER "just shut up and do what you are told or we can do whatever we want."  The officer is the government agent. The officer is the professional. The officer is the one with training and access to resources to handle difficult situations. It shouldn't be the officer that resorts to this sort of action.


One bad officials' choices are one matter, but the school decided to also arrest a second student who stood up during the assault and VERBALLY COMPLAINED about the bullying.  That sort of set the bar for their frame of mind.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: TeeDub on October 27, 2015, 02:05:44 pm

The rule is NEVER "just shut up and do what you are told or we can do whatever we want."  The officer is the government agent. The officer is the professional. The officer is the one with training and access to resources to handle difficult situations. It shouldn't be the officer that resorts to this sort of action.



I see your point...   But too often the rule is exactly that.

(And sometimes I don't blame them.)


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 27, 2015, 09:35:31 pm
(https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/fnPYZbwb8xYHnEpQchSq0FOxkx0=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4200839/school%20resource%20officers%20arrests.png)


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: cynical on October 28, 2015, 10:57:58 am
The deputy who assaulted the recalcitrant student has been fired for violation of department policy.

One bad officials' choices are one matter, but the school decided to also arrest a second student who stood up during the assault and VERBALLY COMPLAINED about the bullying.  That sort of set the bar for their frame of mind.



Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Breadburner on October 28, 2015, 12:16:17 pm
And of course the part of the video where she swings at the cop was left out.....


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Hoss on October 28, 2015, 01:59:06 pm
And of course the part of the video where she swings at the cop was left out.....

Not to the police chief.  He was ultimately the decider on this.

And it wasn't a 'part of the video'.  There was third video that was never released that showed this.  Hmm...never released.


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: swake on October 28, 2015, 02:38:02 pm
And of course the part of the video where she swings at the cop was left out.....

I'm not really sure I see a swing so much as flailing when she's being slammed down. But let's say she did, is she not allowed to defend herself while being assaulted?



Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Hoss on October 28, 2015, 04:31:12 pm
I'm not really sure I see a swing so much as flailing when she's being slammed down. But let's say she did, is she not allowed to defend herself while being assaulted?



Nope, you must submit to authoritay!!!


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on October 29, 2015, 10:27:15 am
https://mobile.twitter.com/nwarikoo/status/658867399551262720?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw (https://mobile.twitter.com/nwarikoo/status/658867399551262720?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)


The big swing


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on October 29, 2015, 11:26:34 am
And of course the part of the video where she swings at the cop was left out.....

The sheriff was playing the role of shocked administrator up to that point; should have cut his losses then.

"There are at least three videos that have surfaced of the incident — which shows the girl flailing at the officer as he is already in the middle of flipping her chair over."  http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sheriff-says-third-video-shows-south-carolina-student-punching-officer-n452481

But Oklahoma had to keep up:
http://www.news9.com/story/30379067/okc-police-school-resource-officer-charged-with-assault


Title: Re: Are Campus Police Accountable?
Post by: patric on June 22, 2022, 07:18:53 pm
The more we know about the police response — or nonresponse — to the massacre at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Tex., the less we are likely to learn from it. Humans have a bias for absorbing facts that fit nicely into our existing presumptions, while remaining largely impervious to new ideas. Next to nothing from Uvalde matches the world we’ve learned from TV and movies.

Few ideas are more deeply ingrained in the American psyche than the power of the gun. The gun is alpha and omega; it puts dramas in motion by empowering a bad guy, then wraps them up in the hands of a good guy. If a gun creates a problem, the solution is another gun — or a bigger gun, or a lot of guns.

So it confounds our view of the world to see images from the brightly painted grade-school corridor showing a small army of men packing guns and bigger guns, plus protective helmets and shields — and all these guns are solving nothing. Though armed to the teeth, the good guys are just standing around. The bad guy is a few feet away, with only a door (unlocked, we now learn) between him and the police. Yet most of an hour passes, and little happens apart from the bleeding, the dying and the fear.

What was missing in that hallway was strong leadership and clear communication. The good guys had more than enough firepower, but they weren’t sure what they were up against. Knowledge was piecemeal and siloed. Information from inside the classroom, conveyed in desperate calls to a 911 operator, was not reaching them. Some of the police were apparently under the mistaken impression that the gunman was holed up alone. Some may have believed they were waiting for a door key, or a crowbar.

All were waiting for the word “go” from a person they knew to be in charge.

These failures all stem from the same root cause: America has far too many police departments.

By piecing together various accounts, we conclude that officers were quickly on the scene from at least four agencies: the Uvalde school district police, the Uvalde city police, the Uvalde county sheriff and — eventually — the U.S. Border Patrol. Texas Rangers arrived at some point, as did the FBI. That’s six agencies in a city of about 16,000 people.

Anyone who has ever tried to make two bureaucracies cooperate efficiently under the best of circumstances can perhaps appreciate the difficulty of making four, five or six bureaucracies work together under the worst.

This proliferation of jurisdictions is a distinctly American problem. According to one ballpark guess, the United States is home to around 18,000 distinct police agencies. Sweden has one. Canada spans a continent, like the United States. Canada comprises local and provincial governments gathered into a federated whole, like the United States. But Canada has fewer than 200 agencies.

That’s right: The United States has close to 100 police agencies for each one in Canada.

According to the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement, nearly 150 school districts in Texas alone have created their own police departments since 2010. It’s not difficult to imagine the thinking behind this trend. A city department or sheriff’s office might not see the value in putting an officer full-time at a grade school, where whole years might pass without seeing anything more dangerous than a wedgie. With a dedicated school police department, the superintendent and school board can deploy their forces as they please.


But then a crisis hits, and officers from multiple jurisdictions rush to a crime in progress. And what do you know? Their radios aren’t on the same frequency. Or some don’t have radios. The chief of one force arrives before the other chiefs and starts giving orders to people who don’t know each other. Maybe the agencies have all trained for a crisis — the Uvalde school force performed active shooter training as recently as March — but rarely have the departments trained together.

People who have been taught to follow orders from a chain of command will be at a loss when the chain breaks down and commanders multiply. People who have learned to work closely with colleagues will be stymied when they find themselves surrounded by strangers. Urgent details won’t be conveyed to everyone who needs them. Paralysis can set in.

American soldiers long ago coined a word to describe operating under extreme pressure, even in the best of circumstances: “snafu.” It means, politely, “situation normal, all fouled up.” In the United States, our passion for creating more and more — and more — police agencies, fiefdoms and sinecures makes even normal performance highly unlikely.

That would be a good lesson to learn from Uvalde.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/06/21/uvalde-shooting-too-many-police-departments/