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Non-Tulsa Discussions => Chat and Advice => Topic started by: breitee on May 31, 2007, 09:47:35 am



Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: breitee on May 31, 2007, 09:47:35 am
How are living conditions in Kendall Whittier? I have heard various opinions about moving there. Anybody have any feedback, positive or negative?


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on May 31, 2007, 10:10:47 am
Really depends on where in the neighborhood you are talking about.  With TU's improvements on the east end nearer to Delaware it's gotten better.

I believe the western and northern parts are largely working class Hispanic these days, which isn't bad unless you are have something personal against Mexicans.

I recommend you take a look at the crime map from the Tulsa Police web site, drive through, and see for yourself.  I don't think it's near as rough as it was 25 years ago...appearance and crime-wise.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: T Badd on May 31, 2007, 01:15:57 pm
My dad used to be pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church on 3rd between Utica and Lewis during the early '80s. Back then, KW was a SCARY neighborhood. I was pleasantly surprised when I cam back to Tulsa and saw all the improvements along Lewis. I think Conan has it right...with all the improvements down the road at TU, I think this area will continue it's upward swing.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: sgrizzle on May 31, 2007, 02:05:40 pm
Even the adult bookstore closed.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on May 31, 2007, 02:08:26 pm
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

Even the adult bookstore closed.



Interestingly enough, it's now the "Original Group" AA clubhouse.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: RecycleMichael on May 31, 2007, 02:08:33 pm
Why would anyone read adult books when children's books are so much fun?


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on May 31, 2007, 02:10:24 pm
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael

Why would anyone read adult books when children's books are so much fun?



The pictures are better in the adult books.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: RecycleMichael on May 31, 2007, 02:33:36 pm
I can understand that.

In fact, that is how I order food at a restaurant. I just point at a picture on the menu and say, "I want that".

I really don't know anything about books. I read newspaper, magazines and websites.

I once went into Novel Idea and looked around for some fantasy football magazines. Finding none, I went up to the clerk and said, "excuse me, where is the magazine section"?. The clerk, sneered at me over his glasses and said in a very snotty voice, "Sir, we do not carry periodicals!"

As I left the store I said in a very loud voice, "You people who read books think you are so damn smart". I then went next door to Albertson's and found just the right magazine.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 31, 2007, 02:42:47 pm
The area immediately around the Kendal school are a bit troubled, as is most of the area just West of TU.  I hope the area continues to improve, but there are some apartments that will continue to attract many less than desirable neighbors without significant investment.

The school, by the way, is amazing.  I was inside a couple of times for various things and it is, facilities wise, top notch.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on May 31, 2007, 03:02:25 pm
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael

I can understand that.

In fact, that is how I look at adult magazines. I just point at a picture on the page, show it to my wife and say, "I want that".




[}:)][;)]


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: sgrizzle on May 31, 2007, 09:12:53 pm
On a related note:
http://tulsa.craigslist.org/sys/342083157.html


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AMP on May 31, 2007, 09:40:49 pm
One needs to keep in mind that crime is mobile, and while some may be rooted in a square mile,  some may comes from outside your area.  

There was a recent murder in a vacant apartment complex by 7th an Lewis this week.  However, I don't recall hearing of others in the past few months.  

There is always an increase in crime as the weather improves and people move outdoors more.

I lived on 4th Place for 8 years and enjoyed that part of town very much in the late 70s and early 80s.  Close to the highway, downtown, Kinkos on 11th, the University, live entertainment at Skelly Stadium and the now the new Reynolds center.  I recall working with the producers of the New Kids on the Block one weekend, that was a fun production.

As stated, every area has its up and down sides, could be traffic flow, traffic noise, flooding, airplane noise, remote location to services, lack of entertainment venues the list is different for everyone.  

I have lived in South Tulsa, North Tulsa, Osage County, Mid Town, East Tulsa.  All have their features and benefits.  If I had young childern as many of my friends do, I would be more cautious, and may rule out certain areas of Tulsa and North Eastern Oklahoma to live in.  If you are single or an adult couple then it is eaiser to choose the area where you decide to live.  

One of the worst areas I recall was around 56th street north and Trenton.  We knew a single mother that attempted to live there, but had her home robbed within a week of moving in.  Others on her street experienced the same problem.  So that area may still be bad, or it could of been cleaned up recently.  

I remember Morning Star, Apache Manor and some of the other Housing developments on the north sied that had high crime rates, but by intervention they have been cleaned up a lot over the past 10 to 15 years.  

I suggest driving through the area, speaking to people working on their lawns on a Saturday afternoon and getting a feel of things in any neighborhood.  Then make the same type of drive through after dark on a Saturday night to check the noise level and street activity.

Most areas now have neighborhood associatioss you can contact to find information and check out what is planned and in action.

www.incog.org/Homeowners/kendallwhittier/kendall-whittier.htm

www.incog.org/Homeowners/INDEX.htm

Nothing wrong with folks being out at night, however it may be the wrong element for some.  Others may love the excitment of groups of people walking the streets, and may even want to join them.  Not sure what trips your trigger, but one thing is for sure, Tulsa seems to have ample supply of diversity in what ever you are seeking in neighborhoods today.  

Happy abode shopping.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 01, 2007, 07:28:52 am
Crime is mobile and anyone anywhere is at risk...

but to pretend that some areas do not have more crime than other's is ridiculous.  The statistics show that, and considering that nearly every in a middle class neighborhood gets reported compared to a much lesser % in poor, immigrant or minority neighborhoods the discrepancy is even greater than the statistics bare out.  Some neighborhoods really are considerably more dangerous than others.

I'm not saying Kendall is one of them, I do not know the crime statistics for the area nor have I been there at any time other than day time.  However, if someone wanted to walk from TU to the bars downtown I would advise against it at night (distance aside, it really isnt too far to walk anyway).  some areas between those points just seem a little shady and there is no reason to invite trouble.

As much as I would like to be part of the solution, if that involves sacrificing the feeling of my family being safe at home - I will not partake.  Perhaps that is selfish, but at least its an honest assessment.  

and again, I am not comment on any specific area's livability because I do not know the area well enough to make that judgment.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2007, 08:26:37 am
^^CF- very well said.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AVERAGE JOE on June 01, 2007, 12:25:16 pm
KW has improved quite a bit in the past 20 years. There are now pockets of good housing and pockets of bad. It was pretty much all bad a couple decades ago.

The biggest problem area is 5th Street to 7th Street on the east side of Lewis. It's a little sketchy here and there other places, but it's more concentrated in that one section. However, that's the part nearest to TU and the brand new school, so there's obvious pressure and interest in cleaning that area up. Get that squared away and the whole area probably takes off because of rising property values.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AMP on June 02, 2007, 12:47:27 am
Many areas of Tulsa are seeing a decaying population of commercial businesses.  On Admiral between Lewis and Yale there are over two dozen firms that have closed and the buildings are Available.  

This is also the case on North Peoria, North Lewis and North Harvard.  

Lack of commercial businesses, a growning number of vacant buildings and the loss of jobs in the area seem to be gaining at a rapid rate over those businesses that are opening for the first time or moving into the area.  The "More going out of business than Into business" syndrome.

Recently parking lots of businesses in that area are scarce of customers vehicles.  One day this week one could of filmed the Day the Earth Stood Still II in the area and not of needed traffic control.  

Not sure if it is the $3 plus per gallon fuel crunch, lack of decent paying jobs, the fact we are at war, or just that many folks are finding it less expensive to stay home nowdays.  You do see an abundant number of vehicles parked in apartment parking lots and in driveways of homes during the day more and more.

Just appears from all indicators of the physical look of the area that things are not good in Tulsa financially and they appear to be getting much much worse daily.  More of a domino effect towards economic disaster in my opinion from just what I observe and from talking with others that own small to medium size businesses here.  

Perhaps some have a different viewpoint on the subject, but the large number of Available Signs and the lack of Help Wanted signs spells trouble in most of recent history.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AMP on June 02, 2007, 12:53:50 am
Appears there are two less folks to cause problems living in the neighborhood tonight.

http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=128561

http://www.kotv.com/e-clips/?id=6499



Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Double A on June 02, 2007, 10:17:39 am
I agree with AJ. I've lived in Tulsa long enough to remember the really bad times that extended to the fringes of Swan Lake, Maple Ridge, Yorktown, Riverview, Florence Park, etc. Progress moves slowly sometimes, but I do see progress in the neighborhoods that surround downtown, granted much remains to be done. I firmly believe that by 2025(maybe even sooner) we could see areas like Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, Brady Heights, Crutchfield, The Pearl, and Kendall Whittier rise to experience a rejuvenation and  renaissance like Cherry St. and Brookside have. In many of these areas, the progress has already begun, although still in it's infancy. Doesn't anybody else remember what Cherry St or Brookside was like 15 years ago?


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: mr.jaynes on June 03, 2007, 03:51:43 pm
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

Even the adult bookstore closed.



They actually closed that?


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AMP on June 03, 2007, 07:22:27 pm
The owner, who I believe was from the Kansas City are and owned two stores in Tulsa one at Admiral and Lewis and the second at 9th and Sheridan passed away.  

The two long time Tulsa locatoins  closed shortly after his death.
 
Many other long time businesses surrounding and near both those locations have also closed.  The private business economy in those areas is not looking healthy at all.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 04, 2007, 09:49:49 am
quote:
Originally posted by AMP

The owner, who I believe was from the Kansas City are and owned two stores in Tulsa one at Admiral and Lewis and the second at 9th and Sheridan passed away.  

The two long time Tulsa locatoins  closed shortly after his death.
 
Many other long time businesses surrounding and near both those locations have also closed.  The private business economy in those areas is not looking healthy at all.




Admiral & Lewis still looks pretty robust to me: Ziegler's, Swinney's, Bix, the restaurant across from Zieglers, the Circle, etc.  9th & Sheridan doesn't seem to be doing much worse.

FWIW, maybe the people who owned small businesses in the areas you are talking about went to work for someone else to make more money.  I believe Tulsa's UE rate is 3.8% which means full employment.

Last year, Tulsa was ranked by Forbes as 2nd in the nation for income growth.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 04, 2007, 09:56:10 am
quote:
Originally posted by Double A

I agree with AJ. I've lived in Tulsa long enough to remember the really bad times that extended to the fringes of Swan Lake, Maple Ridge, Yorktown, Riverview, Florence Park, etc. Progress moves slowly sometimes, but I do see progress in the neighborhoods that surround downtown, granted much remains to be done. I firmly believe that by 2025(maybe even sooner) we could see areas like Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, Brady Heights, Crutchfield, The Pearl, and Kendall Whittier rise to experience a rejuvenation and  renaissance like Cherry St. and Brookside have. In many of these areas, the progress has already begun, although still in it's infancy. Doesn't anybody else remember what Cherry St or Brookside was like 15 years ago?



Try more like 25 or 30 years ago... ghack!

Renovation seems to be pushing further north.  YP's discovered Florence Park in the mid-'80's.  Rising house prices in that area, in turn, brought more buyers to Eastlawn (just north of Flo Pa), White City, and several other neighborhoods with gingerbread and bungalow-style houses.

I went to Barnard Elementary back in the mid-'70's and remember most of the houses just north and west of there in the 17th & Lewis area, were getting fairly run-down.  Now the strip of Gillette from 17th to 15th is spectacular.  St. Johns, I believe, has helped spur renovations west of Barnard and across Utica into the Swan Lake area.  Also high prices for Maple Ridge and around Woodward Park have done wonders for renovations in other areas which used to be less desireable but have similar square-foot homes available.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AMP on June 04, 2007, 10:35:16 am
A couple of business owners in that area I know chose to retire as it cost them more of their SSI check to keep their business open versus sitting at home.  The barber on Sheridan died and no one stepped up to lease his joint. Auto parts store owner sold the lot he owned next door to the music business who moved away from the 11th and Yale location. Auto parts store owner retired from his business as it was not profitable to keep it open.    

Granted there will always be some businesses that have enough backing to survive bad economic times. Or the business location serves as a tax write off for a corporation that has multiple locations in several states.  Or are part of a trust or foundation that is a non or not for profit organization and is not there to make a profit or raise a family.  
 
As far as un-enployment numbers that are reported that is a skewed number to start with.  The number only reflects people that have active claims. Once they have exceeded their total amount of payments, they drop off the roles and are no longer counted.  So an individual that is collecting un-employment benefits is counted, but once they receive their final payment they no longer are counted as un-employed.  Even though they may continue to be un=employed for months or years following their lay off or business closing.  

Remember not too long ago the president extended un-employment benefit time lines to help Americans who had lost jobs and were unable to be re-employed at near the same wages and benefits and working at the same or similer positions.  Retraining funds were needed for Vocational retraining for many who's skills were no longer needed in the work place.  

Also remember that folks that have exhausted their benefits are not eligible to file for another un-employment claim until they have worked for a minimum amount consistently for required set time.  This is the old "Chicken Pit Trick".   If there is a break in employment earnings during that period, their clock may zero and they may have to start that process over again.  So the possibility of an employee filing two un-employment claims within a two year period is very slim.

Once an area such as Tulsa, that suffered from massive lay off two to three years prior, has gone through those employees filing for un-employment benefits and exhausting their claim, the likelihood of them refilling and being counted as un-employed, even though they are, is rare.  

 Also, business owners, family members who worked at the business, partners and investors that close a business are not included, as they are not eligible to claim.  

The new trend of many businesses is to never hire non-core employees and only use either temporary employees or contract labor.  Both these methods skew the reported un-employed numbers once again.  Due to an amendment to the Un-Employment filing law, a temporary employee or any employee for that matter is required to contact their employer, the temp agency for example, to see if there are any open assignments prior to being allowed to file for un-employment.  If working temp, because they are listed as a temporary employee with the agency, they are subject to being re-assigned to most any skill level that the agency provides that the temp has stated or checked off on their skill level grid.  If they refuse to accept the assignment they are normally are denied benefits as they are considered to have "voluntarily quit"  Therefore, those employees have much less of a chance of ever being able to file for un-employment benefits under the current Oklahoma statutes.  

So keep in mind that the current monthly reported numbers of unemplpoyed in the county from the Oklahoma Employment Security Commission are only for people that qualifired for and are currently receiving benefits, and no one else.

The actual number of folks living in the county that are not working is typically a much higher number.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 04, 2007, 11:13:32 am
AMP-

I believe for statistical sake, people who have been unemployed beyond their benefits are considered by the UEC as either being unemployable for various reasons (in jail, mental or physical disability) or not actively seeking employment and are therefore no longer counted.  IOW, the people you are talking about are not "statistically" unemployed according to government standards.  I believe the standard pretty much revolves around those who are not presently employed, but are gainfully seeking employment.

Anyone who can't find some sort of income-producing occupation within a week of losing a job aren't trying or can afford to coast until something they would rather do comes along.  It may not be what they want to do for the rest of their life, nor what they are used to doing or earning, but finding a job in Tulsa is a simple matter these days if someone really wants to work.

Keep in mind with your assertion of people not being counted, that there are also people counted in the unemployment number who are doing day work and piece work for cash.

Looking through the Sunday paper on any given week, job openings in the Tulsa area number in the thousands.  Some of the hard-core unemployed are either lazy, or won't swallow their pride and become under-employed until something commensurate with their experience or job skills becomes available.

Vacant mom-and-pop hardware stores, auto parts stores and the like have nothing to do with a poor economy these days.  Back in the early '80's I might have chewed on that bait.  National chains are obsoleting those businesses, with nicer stores with better on-site inventory.  It seems that for every Med-X drug that closed, two new Walgreens would spring up.  National chains wouldn't invest in our town if the economy sucked that bad.

Tulsa is as robust as ever.  If you base your view of the economy on mom & pop businesses past their prime or newer businesses with no business plan or a crappy one at that, you are missing the big picture of what is really happening in the Tulsa economy.  

My advice to people who want to be in business for themself is:

Don't do something that a national chain does well and prominently in your trade area.

Don't specialize in something which is pretty much a commodity anyone can buy on-line.

Find something you do well, there is demand for with limited local or e-commerce competition, and put it in a good location which will appeal to your primary market.

Good value-added services type businesses will do better than small retail, unless you have an exclusive or near exclusive market for what you are retailing and you can expand it to internet sales.



Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: mr.jaynes on June 04, 2007, 02:49:41 pm
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael


I once went into Novel Idea and looked around for some fantasy football magazines. Finding none, I went up to the clerk and said, "excuse me, where is the magazine section"?. The clerk, sneered at me over his glasses and said in a very snotty voice, "Sir, we do not carry periodicals!"



I hear ya, Michael. Pseudo-intellectual snobbery like that is something I've seen in big display in my time on this rock. People like the ones you have mentioned are the types who are not equipped with technical skills, are not yet posessed of a degree that can actually work for them, are too proud to wait tables, and yet beneath the Call Center industry. I for one enjoy having fun at their expense.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: daddys little squirt on June 04, 2007, 06:40:12 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

AMP-

I believe for statistical sake, people who have been unemployed beyond their benefits are considered by the UEC as either being unemployable for various reasons (in jail, mental or physical disability) or not actively seeking employment and are therefore no longer counted.  IOW, the people you are talking about are not "statistically" unemployed according to government standards.  I believe the standard pretty much revolves around those who are not presently employed, but are gainfully seeking employment.

Anyone who can't find some sort of income-producing occupation within a week of losing a job aren't trying or can afford to coast until something they would rather do comes along.  It may not be what they want to do for the rest of their life, nor what they are used to doing or earning, but finding a job in Tulsa is a simple matter these days if someone really wants to work.

Keep in mind with your assertion of people not being counted, that there are also people counted in the unemployment number who are doing day work and piece work for cash.

Looking through the Sunday paper on any given week, job openings in the Tulsa area number in the thousands.  Some of the hard-core unemployed are either lazy, or won't swallow their pride and become under-employed until something commensurate with their experience or job skills becomes available.

Vacant mom-and-pop hardware stores, auto parts stores and the like have nothing to do with a poor economy these days.  Back in the early '80's I might have chewed on that bait.  National chains are obsoleting those businesses, with nicer stores with better on-site inventory.  It seems that for every Med-X drug that closed, two new Walgreens would spring up.  National chains wouldn't invest in our town if the economy sucked that bad.

Tulsa is as robust as ever.  If you base your view of the economy on mom & pop businesses past their prime or newer businesses with no business plan or a crappy one at that, you are missing the big picture of what is really happening in the Tulsa economy.  

My advice to people who want to be in business for themself is:

Don't do something that a national chain does well and prominently in your trade area.

Don't specialize in something which is pretty much a commodity anyone can buy on-line.

Find something you do well, there is demand for with limited local or e-commerce competition, and put it in a good location which will appeal to your primary market.

Good value-added services type businesses will do better than small retail, unless you have an exclusive or near exclusive market for what you are retailing and you can expand it to internet sales.




Pretty typical remark from a guy who is probably overemployed, gets a cell provided for him and his spouse and is solidly republican. First off, who asked for your advice? And secondly your arrogance reminds me of Ed Meese, one of Reagan's goons. I remember a cartoon of him looking out over his huge belly which obscured the sight of starving ragamuffin kids with their hands out. The caption was one of his infamous remarks that reminds me of your clueless post, "I don't see any hungry kids in America".


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AMP on June 04, 2007, 10:02:15 pm
A few other businesses in the area that have closed along the domino closing side of the street include the Family Diner which was in business for over 21 years {opened in 1985} in that area, an automotive repair business, an automotive collision paint and body repair business, two automotive parts business, an automotive component repair business, a resale store, an antique store, a health food store. Near by closings include a book store, a pet store, a computer store, five - Day Labor temp help companies including three on North Sheridan, four large manufacturing plants, a motorcycle repair business, another auto repair business, a neon sign business, and various other non-descript buildings that are available which I cannot recall what business they were in.  Most the locations they were in are vacant today.  

Interesting that there brokers that could located investors interested in buying any of these ongoing long term business in this area.  Guess the Wal Greens and other major chains have done their small to mid size competitors businesses under in Tulsa.  Pity as the majority of their profits leave the state and go towards improving the City where those corporations are.  

Just like the payments in the millions that go to the dozen or so Yellow Page books we have in and surrounding Tulsa, and the Power company where the payments go to Ohio.

Guess I am not seeing the benefit of allowing corporations that are from out of Oklahoma to do business here that does not seem to benefit the local economy other than small paychecks to clerks and a manager and perhaps rent on the space they occupy.  Most likely they were given some sort of corporate welfare including but no limited to tax subsidies to get them to move here.    

I submit any outside businesses that wish to locate in Oklahoma should be reuired to adopt a decaying Bridge or the entire square mile that their new building will sit on.  They should be reuired to invest in repaving the entire mile long street on both sides in front of their locations. If it has already been done by another business, then allow them to choose another street to rehabilitate.  

I am positive there are enough streets that need to be repaved and bridges that need to be rebuilt to supply every Wal Greens and Wal Mart that wishes to open in our fair city and state.  

Otherwise, go somewhere else to suck the profits out of the local economy, drive small and mid size owners out of business and pay low wages to the clerks and hired help, while helping to lower the standard of living in the towns and cities they infest.

Majority of the local owned Auto Parts stores used up to four major warehouse distributors located in Tulsa for their supply.  Most could get a part within a days notice, many parts could be delivered within a couple of hours.  And the majority of those parts were made in America, and were Original Equipmen Manufactured parts which were at or exceeded the manufactures requirements.

Speaking of Chain Auto Parts stores, most sell parts made or refirburbished in China, Mexico, Brazil and other countries other than the US.  These substandard parts may carry a replacement warrantee, but most do not cover the labor required to retrieve the lower standard part from the customers vehicle.  So the chains were able to drive the parts dealers that sold OEM standard quality parts out of business while pawning off their inferior junk on the unsuspecting, looking for the lowest price buyer.  

There is a trade off with everything.  Up and Down side, sometimes it takes a few months or perhaps a year to discover one has been taken advantage of.  



Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 05, 2007, 07:51:49 am
quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirtFirst off, who asked for your advice?



You did.  By virtue of participating on this forum you have expressed interest in hearing other peoples' point of view.  If you are not interested in hearing other points of view, topics of discussion, or opinions; this is not the place for you.  It's ironic that your signature line encourages being open minded, yet you berate people for sharing their opinions.

Unemployment
WHen we talk about "unemployment" we are usually referring to the BLS numbers.  Their definition of unemployed can be found here:
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

Basically, you are counted as unemployed IF:
1. You are over 16 years old
2. You are in the United States with a legal right to work
3. You did not work for wages in the last month
and 4. You actively looked for work.
(there are some other details - for instance if you are laid off and expect to be recalled you are still considered unemployed and active military are not part of the labor force)

Therefor, "the unemployment rate" is not the same as persons receiving unemployment benefits. Many people are unemployed and are not receiving unemployment for a wide range of reasons (not eligible, exhausted benefit, did not apply, contested...).  The numbers for unemployment benefits is NOT statistical, it is an actual number.  It is based on the number of people getting unemployment checks.

The Unemployment Rate, on the other hand, is based on monthly surveys.  The monthly unemployment statistics are reported with a 97% confidence interval - so its pretty damn accurate.  With 97% confidence we can say that the unemployment rate in Tulsa is 3.6%, and no matter how you look at it that's pretty damn good.

In fact, its TOO LOW!  3.6% is low enough to discourage businesses from moving to town.  3% is considered FULL employment as a certain number at a given time are being fired, laid off, business closing, or quit and are looking for a better job.  The oddity of 2.4% in 2001 is not good for a regions long term economic stability (indicates we can not attract new workers and consequently discourages business from coming here).
--------

There are plenty of jobs in Tulsa, and plenty of 'good jobs.'  In my opinion, some professional fields are over loaded in Tulsa and I would very much like to see the demand for their services rise - but over all things are good.  In fact, many (most) companies are struggling to find qualified workers (mine is for sure).  You have my sympathy if your field is struggling in the Tulsa market, but the overall picture is as good as it has ever been.

By the end of the summer we will be at an all time high for employment in Tulsa... a mark we set a couple of months ago.  Most jobs ever.  

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=070531_5_E1_spanc78514
Article showing 3.6% unemployment and total jobs near the record high.

If you want to be a nay sayer and cry "but the jobs suck" that is 1st of all a change in direction and a succession of my point, and 2nd:  back it up with something.  I'm tired of people spouting forth on topics they are uninformed on and do not bother to research.

QED


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: daddys little squirt on June 05, 2007, 09:26:27 am
I didn't. And neither did anyone else. When I go to a coffee house I don't expect talkative patrons to enlighten me on their coffee preferences either. The thread was about a neighborhood and its changing nature. No one said anything about the economy, how to select a career, how to run a small business or what current know-it-all smug republican conservatives are serving up as success these days. Perhaps if you and Conan and Ip want to continue to infuse your political/economic opinions and attitudes into every thread, You should leave and start your own circle jerk thread.

This Calvinist hangover that everything bad that happens to the poor, the uneducated, the unemployed is their own fault for their laziness, lack of ambition and stupidity starts to wear thin. We all know you guys think the economy here is great, life is good, the city if brimming with opportunity and only the negative, lazy, inflexible slackers are suffering. Whenever anyone dares mention the reality of long time small businesses dissapearing from a particular area, businesses which nationally make up 80% of total employment, it suddenly becomes their fault for not figuring out 15 years ago that e-commerce was going to wipe them out?! That they should have recognized that chains buying from China would soon make them appear crappy and old fashioned?! They should have seen that cheap, poorly made products and poor service were the wave of the future and jumped on the wagon!?

Maybe your right. I'm on the wrong forum. Keep preaching the gospel of Ed Meese. Now you can go back to your regular (fox) programming.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AMP on June 05, 2007, 09:35:32 am
Learn something new everyday.  Thanks for the information on the rest of the story of the so-called unemployment numbers provided by our Government that can not seem to do much of anything accuratly or within budget.  

As with most information coming from the Government lately, sounds as if it depends on what administration is in office, and who has access to the final master file as to how the final numbers are tallied and reported on the spread sheet at the end of the day.  

At least the UI benefit numbers are much closer to an exact number than the system described in this report.  

I submit their samples are skewed if they conduct the interviews of the households by phone.  Many people today have cell phones, which are unlisted in phone directories.  I did not read where they said they obtained the phone numbers, but one would assume they come from telephone directories, which do not list many cell phone numbers.

Majorities of unemployed folks I have known do not have a home phone. That and cable TV are two of the first luxuries to be dropped to survive a lay off or business closing.  

"...Interviewed by phone through two central data collection facilities. (Prior to 1994, the interviews were conducted using a paper questionnaire which had to be mailed in by the interviewers each month.)"

I can totally understand why they dropped the mail questionnaire in 1994.  Anyone that has sent direct mail in the past few years with a mailing list that is more than 6 months old knows they will have around a 40% return of moved left no forwarding or forwarding address expired as they are only good for six months.
 


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 05, 2007, 09:40:34 am
quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirt

Pretty typical remark from a guy who is probably overemployed, gets a cell provided for him and his spouse and is solidly republican. First off, who asked for your advice? And secondly your arrogance reminds me of Ed Meese, one of Reagan's goons. I remember a cartoon of him looking out over his huge belly which obscured the sight of starving ragamuffin kids with their hands out. The caption was one of his infamous remarks that reminds me of your clueless post, "I don't see any hungry kids in America".



Nice to see you are building mental profile of me.  In any case, if you don't like what I have to say, all you have to do is quit reading right here and hit the "ignore" button.

I speak from common sense, optimism, and a work ethic two hard-working parents instilled in me.  My employer and I profit equally off each other.  I work in sales and customers and people at my company need to get ahold of me.  My wife is in the medical field and needs to be accessible as well.  Sounds like a little sniping petty jealousy on your part.  Or you might just be another poster with multiple identities who has had an issue with me for a long time.  

Nothing in my post is remotely political.  FWIW- my father was a Democrat, not that it matters for the sake of our discussion, but you seem to be one of the new posties who thinks everything is politics.  In case you didn't notice, this thread is on the "forum chat".

I fail to see what in my post what could be taken as arrogance.  What about the evolving retail economy in every city across the country has escaped you?  Want to start a new business in the retail sector?  Ignore the observations (I'm hardly the only one with them) and see how well it works out in six months.

I also work in a blue collar area of town which if you drive around the area, there are help wanted signs for skilled labor all over the place.

Let me ask you this:  Would you continue to support someone to live in your house who refuses to work, help with chores, and is a constant drain on your personal resources?  I seriously doubt it.



Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 05, 2007, 10:01:28 am
AMP- for sake of brevity I'm not going to re-print your post.  Points are noted.  I'm old enough to remember when Tulsa's retail scene was dominated by locally-owned businesses and I have a nostalgia for it.

I've seen plenty of local businesses go out.  It's not that a lack of money in the local economy tanked them, some of it was local money going to the big box stores and some of it has been lack of re-investment in their businesses when they had the profits to do it.  

Two of my favorite hardware stores are now gone: Harvard True Value and Sheridan True Value.  I talked to the owner when HTV was in it's last month and he said Lowe's and Home Depot had made his business not viable anymore.  He wasn't blaming the local economy, he was being honest about buying habits changing and the fact that he didn't have a 50,000+ square foot store and the means to finance all the fixtures and inventory.

Honestly, his prices weren't much different than the prices at Lowe's or HD, but his selection wasn't as good and the store on Harvard was pretty dumpy.  Didn't bother me, but apparently, it bothered enough others to spend their money elsewhere.  I was always willing to pay a little more if I could get in and get out quicker than it would take me to find what I was looking for at Lowe's.

Employees of mom and pop's can be and are absorbed by big box retailers, often times at a better pay scale in addition to having benefits like health insurance and profit-sharing.  

Another advantage that the national chains offer is  area re-development.  Hate them if you like, but national chains have replaced delapidated vacant shopping centers, gas stations, industrial complexes, etc. with new buildings which help spur additonal re-development, and re-investment in areas of the city that local investors cannot afford or will not take the risk on.  

I fail to see how Wal-Mart neighborhood market looks worse than the Bel-Aire shopping center or the old Quonset-looking building down on Peoria.  15th & Lewis now looks ten times better than it did with a run-down movie theater, nasty Safeway, and some run-down houses where Alberson's now stands.  Those properties were available to local investors and no one stepped up.

I try to support locally-owned as much as possible.  I almost always opt for local over chain when it comes to dining out.  I prefer Warehouse Market and Perry's over Albertson's, but sometimes Albertson's is more convenient or has a special on something the other's don't.  They also have consistently better produce.  For sake of time and not wasting gas, it's easier to go to a chain store sometimes.

If the majority of consumers didn't want low prices, vast options under one roof, and clean well-run stores, the retail behemoths would not exist.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 05, 2007, 11:20:57 am
AMP:

To be sure the numbers are not perfect.

However:  They are not subject to interference as the definition has not been altered for a very long time.  Likewise, their method of data collection is as accurate as possible and mirrors the system used by any private organization attempting to collect data.  It is designed and approved by statisticians and not bureaucrats.  

As per the phone... if you are low income you can get a phone for as little as $10 a month.  Very few people in the US do not have phone access and would not represent a significant percentage.  Furthermore, of the people that do not have phones the percent of people that are defined as unemployed would only be marginally higher (by definition they have to be looking for a job, if you are not willing to 'invest' $10 a month on a phone it would be hard to get a job).

So yes, the numbers are STATISTICS and not firm values.  However, the reporting system is kept constant and the definition unchanged or the values would be meaningless as you fear.  Statistics are only as good as the methods that underly them, and the methods used by the BLS are pretty sound.

You preferred number of Unemployment Filings is much more subject to manipulation.  If you simply reduce unemployment benefits you can seemingly reduce unemployment.  Likewise, as you correctly pointed out, those benni's expire - so long term regional unemployment would be under reported.  In addition to those flaws, a person that does not file for whatever reason is not counted as unemployed.  Nor are those that work for cash or otherwise can not file for unemployment.

Of the systems available, the BLS numbers are the most reliable.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: daddys little squirt on June 06, 2007, 09:16:23 am
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirt

Pretty typical remark from a guy who is probably overemployed, gets a cell provided for him and his spouse and is solidly republican. First off, who asked for your advice? And secondly your arrogance reminds me of Ed Meese, one of Reagan's goons. I remember a cartoon of him looking out over his huge belly which obscured the sight of starving ragamuffin kids with their hands out. The caption was one of his infamous remarks that reminds me of your clueless post, "I don't see any hungry kids in America".



Nice to see you are building mental profile of me.  In any case, if you don't like what I have to say, all you have to do is quit reading right here and hit the "ignore" button.

I speak from common sense, optimism, and a work ethic two hard-working parents instilled in me.  My employer and I profit equally off each other.  I work in sales and customers and people at my company need to get ahold of me.  My wife is in the medical field and needs to be accessible as well.  Sounds like a little sniping petty jealousy on your part.  Or you might just be another poster with multiple identities who has had an issue with me for a long time.  

Nothing in my post is remotely political.  FWIW- my father was a Democrat, not that it matters for the sake of our discussion, but you seem to be one of the new posties who thinks everything is politics.  In case you didn't notice, this thread is on the "forum chat".

I fail to see what in my post what could be taken as arrogance.  What about the evolving retail economy in every city across the country has escaped you?  Want to start a new business in the retail sector?  Ignore the observations (I'm hardly the only one with them) and see how well it works out in six months.

I also work in a blue collar area of town which if you drive around the area, there are help wanted signs for skilled labor all over the place.

Let me ask you this:  Would you continue to support someone to live in your house who refuses to work, help with chores, and is a constant drain on your personal resources?  I seriously doubt it.




Life is too short and I need no new enemies or tit for tat discussions. Lets just say that anyone who has ever been unemployed for an extended period or self employed would tend to bristle at your remarks. Those two groups receive an unending stream of “advice” which is typically well intentioned but based on lack of insight, experience or risk. I have been through the process a few times.

You’re probably a pretty good salesman which implies a certain strength of ego but leaves little room for self examination? There is no animosity for you or the resident lawyers posting here, just irritation with the constant reflux of conservative speak that Fox generates. We’re not all believers. I perceived a bit of Mit Romney tenor to your remarks, especially the one about work ethic, which may not have been there.

I truly don’t understand or care about your hypothetical of a non contributing home resident. My feeling about the problems with unemployment in Tulsa is that drug and alcohol addiction is the basis. A significant % of the workforce can’t honestly pass drug screenings without using someone else’s urine. That employment pool isn’t going to be very productive. But that’s another post.

BTW, why would anyone use the ignore feature? I don’t understand a lot of what is posted around here and the credibility of many posters is suspect but the whole idea of a forum is discussion whether its comfortable or not.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 06, 2007, 09:54:27 am
quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirt

Life is too short and I need no new enemies or tit for tat discussions. Lets just say that anyone who has ever been unemployed for an extended period or self employed would tend to bristle at your remarks. Those two groups receive an unending stream of “advice” which is typically well intentioned but based on lack of insight, experience or risk. I have been through the process a few times.

You’re probably a pretty good salesman which implies a certain strength of ego but leaves little room for self examination? There is no animosity for you or the resident lawyers posting here, just irritation with the constant reflux of conservative speak that Fox generates. We’re not all believers. I perceived a bit of Mit Romney tenor to your remarks, especially the one about work ethic, which may not have been there.

I truly don’t understand or care about your hypothetical of a non contributing home resident. My feeling about the problems with unemployment in Tulsa is that drug and alcohol addiction is the basis. A significant % of the workforce can’t honestly pass drug screenings without using someone else’s urine. That employment pool isn’t going to be very productive. But that’s another post.

BTW, why would anyone use the ignore feature? I don’t understand a lot of what is posted around here and the credibility of many posters is suspect but the whole idea of a forum is discussion whether its comfortable or not.




For someone who has been on this board a very short time, you certainly seem to know a lot about the posters here.  You might consider refuting the message instead of bashing the messenger in the future.  I'm hardly on a steady diet of Fox News and hardly a clueless elitest speaking out my arse without a variety of life experiences.  

Assuming that everyone who espouses conservative views or speaks about work ethic is a neo-con, a ditto-head, or gets their three hours of Hannitization every day is wrong.

I went through the daily struggle of owning my own business for four years and other members of my immediate family have owned businesses and been self-employed as well.  Fortunately, someone wanted me to work for them in their small business worse than I wanted to continue working for myself. [}:)]

IOW, I'm not pulling ideas of what does and doesn't work in small business out of my a$$.  Other than a seven year stint with a chemical company, I've worked for small businesses all my working life and have worked alongside and count as friends people from every economic rung on the ladder.  

I wholeheartedly agree with you that alcohol and drugs play a part in chronic unemployment.  Those people make a choice to prioritize substance abuse over work and earning an income.  It IS a choice as anyone who has overcome addiction will tell you.  These also are not indicative of a poor economic picture.

I just get agitated with a few of the other posters here who talk about the crappy economy in Tulsa, when there is absolutely zero basis for such an assertion.  I like AMP, but his idea that vacant mom and pop shops in run-down shopping centers and rickety stand-alone buildings is a sign of hard times in Tulsa is hardly accurate, IMO.

Sorry for being a glass-half-full, personal accountability type-person.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 06, 2007, 10:10:02 am
quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirt

When I go to a coffee house I don't expect talkative patrons to enlighten me on their coffee preferences either.



So if you were waiting for your latte in Starbucks and someone else waiting said "I've always found their mocca to be really good here, but I've never had luck with their lattes" you're reply would be something along the lines of  berating them for affording chocolate in their coffee and then ranting about their political affiliation?  Nice.  Your analogy really sums it up for me.

quote:
Daddy wroteNo one said anything about the economy

quote:
Amp wrote on 6/2Just appears from all indicators of the physical look of the area that things are not good in Tulsa financially and they appear to be getting much much worse daily

You need to read the threads you participate in more closely.

As a point of order (upcoming pun intended), it was AMP who brought up the commercial closings in the area.  To which Conan responded and began an discussion with AMP about the area that transitioned into an economics discussion.  Then you interjected - to which I replied.  So if you want to try and place blame for thread deviation there is the primary order that led me into the conversation.

Also, I find this to be strange.  You wrote:
quote:
Life is too short and I need no new enemies

Shortly after writing that IPLaw, Conan and I
quote:
should leave and start [our] own circle jerk thread.

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction.  However, I am confident that you will go back and edit it to match your current position.

and finally:
quote:
daddy wrote: the whole idea of a forum is discussion whether its comfortable or not.

After initiating the discussion with:
quote:
ho asked for your advice?


On to the misguided heart of your comment:

1. Fortuna Caeca Est.  I never said the vast majority of comments you attributed to me.  The gods have nothing to do with reward nor punishment for a persons deeds.  Good, hardworking people are unemployed and on the street.  It happens, yes.  But more often than not such a person can utilize the programs in place and get back on his feet quickly.  Thus, most of the chronically unemployed are such for some reason.  For whatever reason that is, they have nothing to sell in the labor market.

I never said, as you implied, that all people are unemployed because they are stupid and lazy.  I've been unemployed and will likely be so again at some point.  I've had my fair share of crap jobs, I've been fired and currently I work in a job I am over qualified for because I couldn't find the job I really wanted.  Entrepreneurs are among my most respected people and they fail more often than not and land in unemployment and/or bankruptcy.  They usually settle up, dust off, and move on.  Being unemployed means nothing, but being chronically unemployed in a robust economy signifies a problem.

2. The economy is good, I have shown you the numbers and then explained them to you.  Unemployment down, unemployment claims down, total jobs up, real wages up, retail sales up, plants struggling to fill job openings.  Your particular field may not have something that is up to your standards, but by and large, it is BOOM times.  I'm not sure what you see that indicates otherwise and you do not see fit to enlighten us.

3. Long term businesses are ALWAYS closing and new ones reopening.  That is what makes our economy function.  Companies are not guaranteed life, if you are no longer the best or no longer offer products anyone wants - you will close and whoever is doing it better will take your place.  The market decides what defines the best and rewards it accordingly.

It is not necessarily their FAULT for not seeing what consumers wanted... but that really doesn't matter.  A business is not rewarded for anything other than what pleases consumers.  If consumers want cheap and disposable products from a high school kid that doesn't know anything about it, then that is what they will get.  A business owner that holds out can either try to find a niche to fill or fade away.

Business has to be able to fail for the economy to be healthy.  It is not a sign of overall weakness when some fall to competition or changes in the market.  More and stronger businesses will take their place.  

Bare in mind you brought this discussion into the context of Macro economics with your reference to 80% national employment.  For the neighborhood business closings are rarely a good thing.

4. Ed Meese had some of his economic issues correct, but fiscally, socially, judicially, and on other points I do not agree.  I more closely associate him with the comment about the adult bookstore in this thread than anything else.  But kudo's on the obscure reference.


All that said; NO, you are not in the wrong place.  I enjoy hearing other points of view and even like to be proven wrong.  I am always willing to learn and to try and understand someone else's thought process and views.  I may not agree with you, but at least if I understand WHY you think that way I will respect your opinion.  That is not likely to stop me from trying to persuade you otherwise... nor should my opinion stop you.

You posts today seem intelligent and well thought out, for whatever reason the other day you went around posting random negative quips and uneducated jabs.  I hope it was just a bad day.  I look forward to seeing more posts from you and many heated discussions in the future.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: daddys little squirt on June 06, 2007, 11:11:28 am
Geez. Nevermind. I attempted a well crafted subtle apology and neither one of you will have any of it. I'm even criticized for having read and processed your previous posts. If i could remember my password I would change my profile to read deceased.

CF you seem pretty well grounded. I appreciate your detailed response though little of what I posted was really directed at you. Yeah, sometimes I'm smart, sometimes I'm hopeless.

A lawyer friend of mine  was also a Natl. Guard fighter pilot and I observed in him what I see around this forum. His success as an atty. and a pilot convinced him that he was pretty well an expert at everything. Driving, business, social work and politics. He constantly provided advice to others (occupational hazard?)in a forceful legal manner that, although usually incorrect, was difficult to argue against. Many of us outside of the professional ranks who post here find that same dilemma. Too bad for us.

I'm too old and politically jaded to keep posting. I will enjoy watching.



Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 06, 2007, 11:37:59 am
No need to quit posting.  My reply was a well-crafted subtle "I forgive you." [;)]

You might just want to tone down the assumptions that people who don't necessarily have the same POV as you are Calvanist neo-cons that's all.  It's offensive to some of the more centrist and libertarian types on here.

As per usual, we get into some thread drift here, and this one has gone way OT.  I don't think the areas AMP was talking about were even in KW, now that I think of it. [}:)]


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 06, 2007, 11:46:22 am
Indeed, I dont want you to quit posting either.  I hold myself out to be an expert in very few areas, but am well rounded and capable of research in many areas.  I simply try to do my best at being informed on the topic and sharing my viewpoint.  That does not mean I am right, no matter how convinced of it I am.

My education and experience in the business field and as an attorney "kinda sorta" have trained me to be fairly aggressive in discussions.  I mean no disrespect.  Try as I might to avoid it, I am competitive at everything I do and I am sure that comes through in my writing.  Again, such is the nature of my training.  It especially pisses people off that I remain professional while inflaming them - sorry.

So stick with us.  There are plenty of strong view points that oppose me on everything, but too many that don't even try to support their argument.  Feel free to tell me to calm the hell down from time to time. [:P]


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: mr.jaynes on June 06, 2007, 12:46:55 pm
quote:
Originally posted by The Shadow

I think most of you attorneys are stuck-up snobs.



I must say that those among us on this site who are attorneys do make good points.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 06, 2007, 01:00:39 pm
quote:
Originally posted by The Shadow

I think most of you attorneys are stuck-up snobs.


He says with an accusational connotation, just after an attorney explained that he was no expert.

I'll go ahead and assume that the attorney you know best is Denny Crane and the like.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: mr.jaynes on June 06, 2007, 01:18:16 pm
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:
Originally posted by The Shadow

I think most of you attorneys are stuck-up snobs.


I'll go ahead and assume that the attorney you know best is Denny Crane and the like.



Once again, I think all make good points, including the attorneys.

DENNY CRANE!


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 06, 2007, 03:23:35 pm
I would be willing to be that the majority of attorney's are more polished than the majority of actors.  The VAST majority of actors are your bohemian starving artists - the "polished" breed are a small minority that make mega bucks or tour on Broadway.  Of course, comparing attorney's with artists is a bit odd as the two professions attract very different folk.  Both, however, have been known to drink heavily and wind up changing careers.

I'll go ahead and assume the actors you know best is William Shatner and the like.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: mr.jaynes on June 06, 2007, 07:34:48 pm
quote:
Originally posted by The Shadow

Don't you attorneys ever wonder why the public holds you in such low esteem?  It's your conceit.  You all have the ego of an actor, but without the polish.



Besides, what makes you think I'm an attorney anyway?


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: AMP on June 07, 2007, 12:22:34 am
Wow, I leave for a day to produce a practice test and tune night at the ractreck in Kansas and a dozen posts appear.  

I think the phone specials for Low Imcome are actually $1.99 per month.  I see those ada on late night TV along wtih SMC, the two dwarfs or midget real estate guys, Carlton Sheets, the cleavage vitamin lady among other.  LOL

By the way folks living in the Bartlesville and Oklahoma Kansas border area seem very nice and well healed.  We had over 140 for our Test n Tune Wednesday night and we only announced it Tuesday afternoon.  There were a dozen Semi Truck haulers and quite a few Modifieds with some high dollar mils.  

Great to hear those V8 Engines running at the old speedway once again.  Everyone had a big smile on their face.  

True, some of the business areas I described are not in the direct KW neighborhood, but in surrounding neighborhoods that seem to be economically challenged.  Even the East Side Cafe has closed, that was Tulsa's oldest sit down restaurant left operating.  Eastside Cafe's Onion Rings were the best ever.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 07, 2007, 07:24:12 am
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank The Shadow for the lovely personal message he sent me.    Find something better to do than harass people on the internet.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: Conan71 on June 07, 2007, 07:41:27 am
quote:
Originally posted by AMP

Wow, I leave for a day to produce a practice test and tune night at the ractreck in Kansas and a dozen posts appear.  

I think the phone specials for Low Imcome are actually $1.99 per month.  I see those ada on late night TV along wtih SMC, the two dwarfs or midget real estate guys, Carlton Sheets, the cleavage vitamin lady among other.  LOL

By the way folks living in the Bartlesville and Oklahoma Kansas border area seem very nice and well healed.  We had over 140 for our Test n Tune Wednesday night and we only announced it Tuesday afternoon.  There were a dozen Semi Truck haulers and quite a few Modifieds with some high dollar mils.  

Great to hear those V8 Engines running at the old speedway once again.  Everyone had a big smile on their face.  

True, some of the business areas I described are not in the direct KW neighborhood, but in surrounding neighborhoods that seem to be economically challenged.  Even the East Side Cafe has closed, that was Tulsa's oldest sit down restaurant left operating.  Eastside Cafe's Onion Rings were the best ever.



It takes major re-investment to swing the fortunes of an area around.  Without TU's expansion, KW would likely still be pretty blighted.

I do want to give a tip-o-the-hat to Dan Ziegler for his foresight in investing in the KW area long before anyone else was willing to do something productive with the real estate.


Title: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: mr.jaynes on June 09, 2007, 03:28:47 pm
As I remember, KW did have some measure of character to it. Inner city or not, there was something to it.


Title: Re: Kendall Whittier Neighborhood
Post by: SXSW on February 19, 2019, 05:56:36 pm
I agree with AJ. I've lived in Tulsa long enough to remember the really bad times that extended to the fringes of Swan Lake, Maple Ridge, Yorktown, Riverview, Florence Park, etc. Progress moves slowly sometimes, but I do see progress in the neighborhoods that surround downtown, granted much remains to be done. I firmly believe that by 2025(maybe even sooner) we could see areas like Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, Brady Heights, Crutchfield, The Pearl, and Kendall Whittier rise to experience a rejuvenation and  renaissance like Cherry St. and Brookside have. In many of these areas, the progress has already begun, although still in it's infancy. Doesn't anybody else remember what Cherry St or Brookside was like 15 years ago?

I was searching through old threads and found this one from 2007.  With the Kendall-Whittier area in probably the best shape it's been in decades I wanted to revisit where the area goes from here.  Additional development along the strip around 1st & Lewis?  More renovations and new construction houses on either side of Lewis?  There are still plenty of rundown areas within the neighborhood but overall it continue to be on a positive trajectory. 

Regarding the other fringe neighborhoods mentioned by Double A:
Crosbie Heights - some new reinvestment but still a couple years out, with the close access to downtown and the river and great views from the top of the hill I see a lot of potential in this area.  Wish someone would do an adaptive reuse on the old brick buildings at Archer & Nogales
Owen Park - lots of new investment in the areas closer to the park and TCC, less so further west.  Like Crosbie Heights lots of potential for further growth with TSAS and TCC as anchors
Brady Heights - nearly completely gentrified, still opportunities for infill on the east side and renovating rundown homes further north into Cheyenne Park
Crutchfield - still pretty rundown, probably still a few years out from seeing growth since it's so disconnected from downtown and surrounded by industrial
Pearl District - lots of new investment along 6th with clusters at Peoria and Utica (the brewer's block), new stores and restaurants along 11th, but still lots of dilapidated homes and empty lots