The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: ZachDaniels on April 18, 2007, 09:45:17 am



Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: ZachDaniels on April 18, 2007, 09:45:17 am
[navy]

So there is a "STRONG" rumor that walmart is looking to put in a new multi-story urban designed supercenter in the east end of our downtown area and are now competing with the developers out of Washington D.C. that are looking to bring a true urban environment that we as Tulsans are lacking completely with a development such as a baseball stadium, *similar to bricktown*, Mixed use retail, loft apartments above the retail, urban style offices, restaurants and bars, a great urban lifestyle that would change Downtown Tulsa from being a lights go off district at 5pm.

DO YOU REALLY THINK A WALMART WOULD HELP? or would it be the same old small business/retailer killing facility that is everywhere else in Tulsa...

Tax dollars are not the only thing that matters.. We as people matter.. and I think it is ridiculous to block something that can change Tulsa for the greater and allow Tulsa to thrive on a true urban scale...  

All in favor of helping the Washington D.C. group change downtown Tulsa for the better say "I"


---Zach---

and for those of you that have to see it to visualize.... Click the link below

http://www.globaldevelopmentpartners.com/EastEnd.html


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: tulsa1603 on April 18, 2007, 10:49:52 am
quote:
Originally posted by ZachDaniels

[navy]

So there is a "STRONG" rumor that walmart is looking to put in a new multi-story urban designed supercenter in the east end of our downtown area and are now competing with the developers out of Washington D.C. that are looking to bring a true urban environment that we as Tulsans are lacking completely with a development such as a baseball stadium, *similar to bricktown*, Mixed use retail, loft apartments above the retail, urban style offices, restaurants and bars, a great urban lifestyle that would change Downtown Tulsa from being a lights go off district at 5pm.

DO YOU REALLY THINK A WALMART WOULD HELP? or would it be the same old small business/retailer killing facility that is everywhere else in Tulsa...

Tax dollars are not the only thing that matters.. We as people matter.. and I think it is ridiculous to block something that can change Tulsa for the greater and allow Tulsa to thrive on a true urban scale...  

All in favor of helping the Washington D.C. group change downtown Tulsa for the better say "I"


---Zach---

and for those of you that have to see it to visualize.... Click the link below

http://www.globaldevelopmentpartners.com/EastEnd.html



I'm going to get a lot of heat for this I bet, but that Wal Mart will be the death of downtown.  It will be the closest Wal-Mart to a crime ridden part of town.  We can argue whether or not North Tulsa has more crime or not, but the general public perception is there.  Yes, it's a positive development in terms of bringing groceries and shopping downtown, however, the kind of people (young people with $) that downtown needs don't want a Wal-Mart.  Especially one that will develop a reputation for being "ghetto" or dangerous.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: ZachDaniels on April 18, 2007, 11:24:51 am
I completely understand where you are coming from and its heart hardening to see that Tulsa's downtown planners and city planners would even allow or even consider this kind of economic suicide for that area, not to mention what do you do when the WalMart goes black  and puts in a different location and closes that one down? We will be in the same circumstances and our children will be fighting this battle and/or moving away to a place thats more accommodating for the young professional.

I am here to entice people to stand up and say something and have some pride in where you live and want a change that will impact not just ourselves but our children, our businesses, and Tulsa's future, this impact isnt a small scale % of downtown, it affects tulsa as a whole.

Just for me, close your eyes, picture a vibrant downtown hustle with a baseball stadium right in the mix, the sound of the fans, the bars with cold beer on tap, hot dog vendors on the corner and you walk down from your loft apartment to visit your local pub below and meet a few friends, step outside grab a hot dog and look at the retail stores as you walk over to catch the baseball game, and then after... head back to your pub for a nightcap and conversation before walking back upstairs to your residence.. Sounds like fun doesn't it?  

It does to me, as well as many millions of young Americans across the country.


“Vision without action is just a dream, and action without vision is a nightmare. Lets put this vision into action!”

---Zach---


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 18, 2007, 11:35:16 am
1) Deja Vu
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5967&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=walmart%2C

It's been nearly a full two weeks since someone has pointed out that Walmart is the root of all evil on these forums.  But this particular development as been discussed Ad Nauseum in the above post.

2) "The kind of people downtown needs..."
I'm a young person with money and shop at Walmart.  Furthermore, downtown just needs PEOPLE.  Lets not get pretentious about who they are until there is some people there to start with.

3)  "Will be the death of downtown."  
No shopping malls and the sprawl south were the death of downtown about 30 years ago.  Most of Tulsa is South of I-44 and would have to pass at least one shopping centers to get downtown (probably more - Woodlands Hills, Promenade,  Utica Square, the Farm, Cherry Street and other shopping areas).  If you dont work downtown or you arent on your way to the PAC/Bluedome, there is no reason to be there.  

People keep areas alive.  Currently, after 5pm there are NO people downtown.  There might be a pocket near the blue dome on the weekends, or the PAC, or even the convention center from time to time.  But on any given night a drive down Boston or most other streets is an adventure in a ghost town.  By extension - its already dead.

People are needed to keep it alive.  Certainly Walmart will bring people downtown.   I wouldn't want to live next to Walmart, but if I no where else within walking distance to get groceries, beer, pharmaceuticals, toiletries, and other misc. items - I'd love to have one a few blocks away.

At the moment we have abandoned buildings and empty lots - I would prefer a Walmart with people to that.  Though, I greatly hope they dont put the standard box store with sprawling parking lot - that would be too bad.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: ZachDaniels on April 18, 2007, 12:20:15 pm
As i stated above:

   The WalMart idea is a "direct conflict" with the other development, they are trying to buy the same ground that the DC people are trying to acquire.

   We need more people downtown, yes. But does it attract the right type of people, "ON A GENERAL BASIS" to the area? I can't say I am a WalMart hater because I do shop there occasionally but it is not going to add any vibrancy or get people to move into the area to create the needed "Urban Lifestyle" that every thriving city has. A WalMart will diminish the chances for a local pharmacist, a local beauty supply store, a local grocery store, electronics, etc.. to open, based on risk factors alone. Wouldn't we rather try something different and put our eggs in many different baskets? I can understand if you have only lived the suburban Tulsa way that you would be comfortable with that. I work downtown, and want to see it thrive. Tulsa needs character downtown, and a big box user isn't going to fill the need. Even if it is multi story with a different facade it is still... "WalMart" and it hinders the development and success of a preponderance of small businesses.


---Zach---


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Floyd on April 18, 2007, 01:25:37 pm
RIGHT NOW is the time that city leadership needs to step in and help settle this situation into some sort of mutually beneficial compromise.  With so much fallow land in downtown, SURELY there is enough for both developments.  SURELY the two devleopment companies could find a way to coexist.

Paging Mayor Taylor . . . Mayor Taylor, please pick up the phone.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: YoungTulsan on April 18, 2007, 02:09:07 pm
Actually, I bet both Walmart and GDP base the viability of their developments by the state of the market right now being underserved.  If a walmart is downtown sucking up all this business and money, it may not leave enough "potential market" for GDP's east end to also be viable.   At least to the developer I imagine.   Just like the Channels would have sucked a lot of potential out of downtown development, a walmart might do that to people planning to take on the market downtown.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 18, 2007, 02:13:11 pm
That's a good point YT.  

But I wouldnt ban Walmart for several reasons:

1) Its vain to try and tell the market what they want.  You are essentially punishing the nearby residents of the north side because you dont like Walmart and want to attract rich white young people.

2) Something is better than nothing.  I dont care if the King Abdullah was talking about building his winter palace in Tulsa.  Until they own the land and break ground, I dont believe a damn thing I hear aobut development in Tulsa.  So why ship the smaller ship when the larger one might not ever come to port?

Something else > Walmart > nothing.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: ZachDaniels on April 18, 2007, 02:46:48 pm
Its not "Punishing" the nearby residents. But you are right that a WalMart doesn't attract the rich persona.

But look at how you put it..and remember.. "PERCEPTION IS REALITY"

 "Its vain to try and tell the market what they want. You are essentially punishing the nearby residents of the north side because you dont like Walmart and want to attract rich white young people."

So are you saying that the north Tulsa people are of a lower incomes and other races? because that is what you implied.

Your statement and implication on income is a main reason why we don't have an urban lifestyle:

Lower income(doesn't support the retail demands for boutique style retail and independent small businesses.) Lower income also carries the persona of being unsafe, or "Ghetto" as tulsa1603 stated as a common persona for the east end.

Which in turn keeps the middle/upper-middle and upper class residents of Tulsa from living in the downtown district and keeping developments from happening. Unless! We have a development that is on a large enough scale to have an effect on the east end as a whole which will change the economics because people will want to be there.. Ballpark, retail, restaurants, bars, pharmacy's, grocery stores, offices, hotel(s), enough that it is a win win situation.

And to state a note of fact. GDP owns 1 city block in the east end.



Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 18, 2007, 03:03:22 pm
I in no way meant to imply that most residents of North Tulsa are of a different income class.  I meant to actually SAY that residents of North Tulsa are generally of a different income class - namely poor.  And while I do not think race SHOULD have a significant roll to play in the decision, it is realistically going to be brought up in any decision as those poor North Tulsa residents have a much better chance of being black than wealthier mid-town residents.

I'm not sure how MY STATEMENT has any effect on development.  The reality probably has a lot more to do with it than my statement.  Who the hell listens to me anyway?

And while I am at it.  I'm voting against anything that gives public money to build a new ballpark.  As I sat with the other 1,000 people at the Driller's game the other day I came to the conclusion that a stadium further away from the population center probably wouldn't draw any more fans.  There is nothing WRONG with the stadium they play in now and other $1 beer nights no one goes.  Heck, for that matter, how many Driller games have you been to lately?  If it was going to be so wildly successful with the new stadium then they can built it themselves.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: ZachDaniels on April 18, 2007, 03:16:12 pm
Here's why i think it would be more successful. Let's debate and not argue! :-D

A new ballpark placed in the middle of an urban development as i had mentioned before, living spaces, restaurants, offices, bars, hotels, retail, etc. is going to be more successful than a ballpark next to lowes and a super target that has no "attraction" persay to visit before or after, there's no (hey after dinner lets catch the game "or" lets walk over and see who's playing and then after that meet up with some friends at a pub or go shoppping), the new ballpark would be in the middle of where everyone wants to be, to wine and dine, to go on dates, to party to play, to be entertained, relax and live. its not just the ballpark, its not just the restaurants or the loft apartments, its the development as a whole that makes it work. The ballfield alone would be unsuccessful even if moved to a nicer facility its everything around it that helps feed. :-)

Plus the current location of the drillers would be a heck of a spot for a super walmart! HaHaHa!

"in my opinion"



Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: TheArtist on April 18, 2007, 11:33:25 pm
An urban Wal-Mart could go in the East End no matter which major developer gets their way.  In other words there is room for both a stadium and an urban Wal-Mart in the East End.  Not to mention much more.

A neighborhood market with parking behind and or underneath, (the 2 story version) having an appropriate facade would not kill downtown. A regular Wal-Mart with parking underneath would not kill downtown.

If they or anyone else wants to put in a grocery store I dont see why it should be that horrible if it were urban in style.


Here are some excerpts from a news story I found interesting.


(((Wal-Mart is limited to land availability and zoning codes nationwide just like everybody else, he said. Many cities do not have zoning laws that would allow a mixed-use development like the Wal-Mart Village. Over the last few years, Wal-Mart has designed its buildings to represent individual communities, Zorn said. City officials are requesting noise control, parking, signage and landscaping concessions, he said. With that, communities "feel like they’ve built their Wal-Mart for their community. The process is becoming much more open." "We’re looking for local architects, contractors and civil engineers. We’re working harder than ever with business leaders, elected officials, and city and county planners. We’re quite regularly attending open forums and bringing renderings." Wal-Mart now has a veritable "menu" of elevations to offer, Zorn said. Wal-Mart is partnering with local colleges so students can engage in hands-on training while receiving an education. Those neighborhood residents are helping build their own Wal-Mart store, Garner said. "That’s phenomenal and powerful — it gives a sense of ownership," "We are looking at 50 to 70 ‘special projects’ that are not traditional," he said. The company is sharing tips and best practices with its international division, which has built multilevel stores in urban markets worldwide.

...But in urban areas, the building’s footprint must be more compact and relate to the street and sidewalks, allowing access for pedestrians as well as vehicles. The experimental stores in McKinney, Texas, Aurora, Colo., are environmentally friendly and sustainable in many aspects with the use of wind power or permeable parking surfaces.  In Chicago, Wal-Mart is experimenting with grass on 50 percent of the store’s roof, joining many other companies in the city. " They showed us images of their latest ‘green’ store models with windmills, solar heating and recycled building materials.

 ....If they could just design some walkability and mixed-use into their design, up to 40 percent of the car trips to their stores could be eliminated, "she wrote.

The Wal-Mart officials were enthusiastic about these pedestrian-friendly ideas and even attended the public input charrette in Pass Christian in February, Hall said.

Roseland, Calif." To my knowledge, this has never happened before, "she wrote in the op-ed piece." Here was Wal-Mart’s director of architecture with the New Urbanists, working night and day on a design that would meet their interests of not only the size of the store and the number of parking spaces, but also of providing nearby housing for their workers and plenty of nearby customers within walking distance. "And it was beautiful and walkable at the same time." )))


Global Developments plans were for a 1.9 million square foot development, including 450,000 sq ft of retail. Some new Urban Wal-Mart prototypes are 99,000 sq ft split between 2 floors. Plus remember there are more places for stores and such to go in downtown.

"Urban dwellers dont want to shop at Wal-Mart"  "Wal-Mart is the wrong demographic"

If thats true and nobody shops at the Wal-Mart then you won't have to worry about it being there for long.  After a month of so of no hip urban shoppers supporting it, it will go under, right?  You will have a new, decent looking brick structure with underground parking that can be used for other purposes instead of say a surface parking lot which may be there now. Plus a Wal-Mart won't be competing with any "trendy" urban type businesses so those types of businesses will have absolutely nothing to worry about.

Not the most urban, but another interesting variation of what Wal-Mart is doing in other places.  Has 2 levels of parking and shopping, with "street level" shopping and parking on top of the lower level Wal-Mart.

http://www.seligenterprises.com/dbimages/district1.swf


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on April 19, 2007, 05:41:02 am
You are taking a lot on faith from a company that has not demonstrated it can be believed in to live up to anything other than the local zoning and building code.



At virtually every "Board of Adjustments" hearing held, in Tulsa, you will find "Wally" and friends asking for a rule change.

If you think Wal Mart will build or spend any more than what they feel is absolutely necessary.....

Good Luck.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: sgrizzle on April 19, 2007, 06:45:06 am
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist


http://www.seligenterprises.com/dbimages/district1.swf



Bury walmart, I like it. Is phase two filling the lower level with water?


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: TheArtist on April 19, 2007, 06:49:47 am
quote:
Originally posted by Rico

You are taking a lot on faith from a company that has not demonstrated it can be believed in to live up to anything other than the local zoning and building code.



At virtually every "Board of Adjustments" hearing held, in Tulsa, you will find "Wally" and friends asking for a rule change.

If you think Wal Mart will build or spend any more than what they feel is absolutely necessary.....

Good Luck.




That is true for most other retail stores as well.  That should be enough for Tulsa to make sure there is proper zoning or form based codes in an important area. The city of Tulsa can choose not to grant rule changes and on top of that the city does have some cards it can play in order to push any development to be more like what it wants. We aren't completely helpless.  If we can stop them from coming, which seems to be what many on here are arguing, then we should be able to also say, "But if you want to be here you or any other large retail store have to be like this..."


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on April 19, 2007, 07:00:13 am
^ Bottom line...

I don't think they can be stopped. Mr Williams is their "Trojan Horse"..

In other cities their are rules in place for a development. In the Eastend; it has been community involved people that have given us what we have there now.

"Global" seemed to sense what was a desirable development for the area..

On the other hand, Think about this....

Home Depot.. and across from that, with easy freeway access, a Wal Mart..

If you know of a way they can be stopped from coming let me know... I am all for that.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Double A on April 21, 2007, 02:34:08 pm
Stop the TIF District. Stop Wal-Mart.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: USRufnex on April 21, 2007, 10:56:29 pm
hmm... per usual on this subject, it's hard to know where to even begin to respond...

I think if Mayor Taylor showed a more active interest in this project, it would be in stark contrast to her first political year of Vision2025 photo ops, ego coddling, fairgrounds power grabs and getting a clue about how Tulsa actually operates........ Only then might something actually come to fruition in the East End.  Which could start the ball rolling in the Kanbar camp.  Since we haven't heard anything at all of substance over the past few weeks, I assume the silence means something is being done "quietly behind the scenes" to settle the issue... all I can say is, THERE'D  BETTER BE.  

"Paging Mayor Taylor . . . Mayor Taylor, please pick up the white courtesy phone."

To choose between Global Development's "plans" and an urban WalMart?

That's like choosing between a Mercedes and a Buick... a no-brainer.  I'd like the Mercedes, please... and I'd also like a pretty pony, too..

But I'll take a well running Buick over a Mercedes lacking an engine any day of the week...

Quiz Question #1:  Which Tulsa TIF (tax increment financing) district has been far and away the most successful since Tulsa started creating them under former mayor Susan Savage?

A. The bohemian mix of restaurants, bars, shops and artist studios on Brady.

B. The eclectic mix of bars, nightlife, etc. at the Blue Dome.

C.  The big box retailer and upscale condo development divided by a major highway.



In my opinion, if LaFortune were re-elected, this East End project would not have been left to flounder for so long... but oh, I forgot... it's all about political cronyism... yeah, how dare anybody give credit to former mayor LaFortune who attracted Global in the first place... how dare anyone point out that if it weren't for former mayor LaFortune's leadership and due diligence in attempting to secure a Major League Soccer team for Tulsa, these people from DC would never have been attracted to Tulsa in the first place... how dare anyone give credit to the former mayor whose actions attracted the investments of Kanbar and Kaufmann... how dare anybody look back at the beginnings of this "East End" project to see how downtown activists tried to sabatoge it from day one by insisting on the perfect over the good...

1) Deja Vu
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5967&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=walmart%2C

Yep.  Deja vu.  Like 5 years ago when I was pleasantly surprised by life in Tulsa...... I was surprised at the tenor of the mayoral debate going on between Susan Savage and LaFortune, a debate about "vision."  And I think alot of former Tulsans were intrigued at what was going on in the leadup to Vision2025... was it perfect?  No.  Was it good.  Yes.

Is it going to be good enough?  Not sure.  What would downtown OKC be like today if only the first MAPS project had passed?

"Stop the TIF District. Stop Wal-Mart."

Pray tell Double A, what is your "vision" for downtown Tulsa?

More sales taxes?... replacing the handful of feeble TIF districts Tulsa's already established with something cooler that would attract even less investment?... a downtown tax-subsidized "upscale" Costco with a sparse, yet rude staff of overpaid, underqualified, unionized glorified-stockboys making a starting wage of $16 an hour...???

Ooooh, pinch me.  [:O]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: jdb on April 22, 2007, 12:54:33 pm
"...TIF far and away the most successful..." -USR


I must have missed all the dense urban growth that's sprung from that fountainhead.

A little pile of money, big deal.

"Hey, I got an idea...lets go down to the Urban WM in DT and do some people watching."


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Double A on April 22, 2007, 06:30:39 pm
Listen all of y'all it's a sabotage. You are starting to sound more paranoid than the Wal-Mart Conspiracy theorists that drive you so crazy.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: TheArtist on April 22, 2007, 06:32:19 pm
People?....Downtown?  riiiiiiiight, thats a good one.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: USRufnex on April 22, 2007, 09:10:28 pm
Why should I have to move to a city that values progress? (i.e.... Chicago and .... drumroll please...... Oklahoma City!)

Can the city of Tulsa just trade Rico, Double A and JDB to Coffeeville for a future draft pick?  (heck, I'd throw in Average Joe at no extra charge...) [}:)]

Next month I'll post my 6th month in Tulsa anniversary bar-hop-pub-crawl-pulse-of-Tulsa feasability study..... don't miss it.

Have a nice day, urban activists.  [:P]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: jdb on April 22, 2007, 09:33:59 pm
Nah, I am strickly second string...and what with AJ being more of a ...well, starbucks/ camaroonies kinda guy, poor rico - who's at the mercy of his barren plain of a mind - is a mess...and that would leave AA standing out in the rain wearing bunny slippers and biting bullets.

I'll take Tucson for $300.00, jdb


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: AVERAGE JOE on April 22, 2007, 11:07:44 pm
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex

Can the city of Tulsa just trade Rico, Double A and JDB to Coffeeville for a future draft pick?  (heck, I'd throw in Average Joe at no extra charge...) [}:)]


So I'm the "player to be named later"? Sweet! [:P]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: USRufnex on April 23, 2007, 02:53:02 pm
"...A little pile of money, big deal..." --jdb

Except that "little pile of money" is still roughly SEVEN TIMES LARGER than the piles of tax $$$ taken in from the other 2 projects, even when you take into account the fact that the Blue Dome district's only been designated TIF since 2003.

quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex


Quiz Question #1:  Which Tulsa TIF (tax increment financing) district has been far and away the most successful since Tulsa started creating them under former mayor Susan Savage?

A. The bohemian mix of restaurants, bars, shops and artist studios on Brady.

B. The eclectic mix of bars, nightlife, etc. at the Blue Dome.

C.  The big box retailer and upscale condo development divided by a major highway.


Pencils down, please...

http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/things_tax_increment.html

http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/tif_district_map.pdf

A.  Brady Village Tax Increment District #1 – Established 1993 (expires 2008)
The plan created an Arts & Entertainment District. Now in its 12th year an increment of approximately $1,025,000 has been appropriated to the Brady Village District consisting of both sales tax and ad valorem
Art studio located within Brady Village District increments.

B.  Blue Dome Tax Increment District #5 – Est. July 2003 (expires 2018)
This district encompasses nine square blocks within the northeast quadrant of the CBD. The area features eight buildings with a high level of both architectural and/or historical significance, including the "Blue Dome" building, a 1920s era Gulf Oil station and the old Santa Fe Historic Blue Dome, renovations underway Railroad Depot......Increased property and sales tax revenues, currently totaling $163,000, are being used to enhance the safety and security of the area in the form of Fire Suppression Vault Installation assistance program and streetscaping that includes sidewalks, alleyways, lighting, benches, landscaping and parking improvements.

And the correct answer:

C.  Central Park Tax Increment District #2 – Established 1994 (expires 2009)
Created in conjunction with the downtown Home Depot, funds from the District constructed streetscaping adjacent to the Home Depot site. Incremental sales and property tax revenues to date total approximately $7 .2 million.

The pressing question is, and always has been....... how large must the project be to finance a baseball stadium?  Would it require something ten times the size and scope of the Central Park project?  Are we really talking only 15 years or will the East End TIF District require 20+ years...???  Could two separate projects co-exist in the same TIF designation?  Could the ballpark present an unnecessary drain on the project or would taxes on tickets to Drillers' games/concessions be included as part of the TIF?

Oh, and if it fails, who shares the risk?

Inquiring minds want to know.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: jdb on April 23, 2007, 03:54:39 pm
$7 .2 million - sure, I know, but at what cost?

Like it, or not, inside the IDL is limited.

The Big Fat Eyesore of home improvement, oh la la cha ching, has about hit it's life span...

The Big Fat Prison is now what, a convicts stone toss from our Big Fat Crown Jewel the areNa...

Demolish any incentive for people to snoop out DT by plunking down a Big Fat walmart - which they already have in their own backyards...

What say we stuff a AAA ballpark inside the loop and really give people reason the complain about parking.

"But Ted, we don't got much room left for a walkable community down here anymore."

"Screw 'em, grab the cash were outta here."

The focus of a big push should have been Brady or bluedome with a Big Fat Red circle around the word "rooftops": as the EE was the last area that could have been an incubator for kooky upstarts....

Odd how there's more Art in the EE then Brady or bluedome isn't it? Why is that? How long has it been that way? What started it?

TIF's don't make cool happening places but they do push the cool happening people out and crush down the spaces they occupied.

But what's it really matter when most don't even begin to understand.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: USRufnex on April 23, 2007, 05:00:07 pm
er,uh... yeah, right.

Starving artists have been shopping at WalMart stores for decades... the ones that don't are more than likely still spending mumsy and dadsy's money at Utica Square... or are married to lawyers...

Home Depot isn't an eyesore... those old Nordam warehouses ARE..... the east village/east end has eyesores in spades.  In my opinion, the Home Depot was tastefully done along the highway.... actually makes the building in front of it stand out.

I think about what Chicago looked like when I moved there 17 years ago... times change, people change... artists, singers, actors, comedians sought out cheap housing in seedy areas to make ends meet... nobody could afford to live in most areas of downtown... one neighborhood becomes "the real deal," then gentrifies... then another neighborhood becomes "eclectic" and then a few year later gentrifies...

It's a rarity when you see something like The Paseo district in Oklahoma City-- a cool, hip (maybe more "hippie") area that has been there for decades/generations...

Good luck stormin' the castle... bet those anti-WalMart signs will be just as popular in Tulsa as any anti-Sears or anti-McDonald's signs would be in Chicago...

A sports stadium will not mark "the death of downtown Tulsa."  An urban WalMart will not mark "the death of downtown Tulsa."

The status quo will continue to mark the death of downtown Tulsa.  




Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: jdb on April 23, 2007, 07:59:17 pm
"one neighborhood becomes "the real deal," then gentrifies... then another neighborhood becomes "eclectic" and then a few year later gentrifies..." - USR

Yep, that's one routine.

Hey, did Chicago tear down most of it's DT smaller buildings leaving just a few micro-hoods standing?

Obviously there is no single magic pill, bullet or person to save or finish off DT, (got no idea who your "quoting" there) but so while I am dissappointed with what passes for progress, you won't catch me carrying signs out in front of anything in Tulsa again - except maybe an Anti-Bimbo rally.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on April 23, 2007, 09:50:22 pm
won't catch me carrying signs out in front of anything in Tulsa again - except maybe an Anti-Bimbo rally.

^jdb

Gentlemen it is now time for a short pause to recharge...........


(http://www.i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/soccerthis.jpg)




Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: jdb on April 24, 2007, 06:36:26 am
Have sign will travel.

"Forget the Whales - Save the Bimbos!" - jdb


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on April 24, 2007, 10:11:50 am
Haven't been able to catch the story myself..

My Wife watched a clip on Channel 8... According to their News.. Global has now acquired 50% of the land needed for their project...

Can you say "back room deals... with hands being greased.."

I thought you could..

[}:)]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 24, 2007, 11:05:02 am
Good points USRUFNEX.

And as for sign carrying, I'm in on anything those two are in on.  I'm weak, I know.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: sgrizzle on April 24, 2007, 11:52:30 am
50% would mean they have almost everything except nordam. Unless they got nordam to settle.

Speaking of back door deals, maybe the owasso guy wanting a walmart was just a ruse to raise property prices.

Competition, ya know?


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: USRufnex on April 24, 2007, 02:44:28 pm
Rico, thanks for the reminder that I need to change the wallpaper on my monitor again...

And thanks for clarifying...
I almost thought jdb was being racist/anti-immigrant...

Here in east Tulsa, an "anti-Bimbo rally" means something totally different...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/de/Grupo_Bimbo_Logo.jpg/250px-Grupo_Bimbo_Logo.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupo_Bimbo

"50% would mean they have almost everything except nordam"--sgrizzle

"But I'll take a well running Buick over a Mercedes lacking an engine any day of the week..."--USRufnex

nordam = engine.  [;)]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on April 24, 2007, 03:25:20 pm
Fortunately... "bimbo" is something that transcends both race and nationality....

^sgrizzle; had never considered Williams may be a ruse..


Oh you have a sinister mind... but that's a good thing.[}:)]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: jdb on April 24, 2007, 03:30:10 pm
Thinking this post may flush the topic but:

Although not normally a racist or anti-new peoples (I save that for other forums) I do prefer the American link to Bimbo's.

http://www.bimbobakeriesusa.com/

An earlier comment about swapping places with the drillers and a walmart wasn't half bad. But start that subject and see how many people welcome it with open arms, eh?

However, in the I take exception dept., the use of "crime ridden" and the EE in the same sentence would be laughable except that it does affect public perception - that would be all three people that even know the area and that don't already know better.

Or something like that.
jdb




Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: sgrizzle on April 24, 2007, 05:05:25 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Rico

Fortunately... "bimbo" is something that transcends both race and nationality....

^sgrizzle; had never considered Williams may be a ruse..


Oh you have a sinister mind... but that's a good thing.[}:)]



Today's conspiracy, brought to you by sgrizzlecorp.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on May 20, 2007, 05:59:58 pm
It would seem Wal Mart is playing Tapps for suberbia....


http://www.tulsabusiness.com/article.asp?aID=45066


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on May 20, 2007, 06:08:48 pm
^

[}:)]

In a completely unrelated story..... It would seem Downtown Tulsa will be keeping pace with suberbia.....

In a story in today's business section of "The World" a story entitled "Downtown deceptively Dead"



>clip

Anyone who has a fun, accessible idea can succeed in downtown, be there neighbors or not. And the first trailblazers there can set the tone for the rest of the area.

In fact, time may be running out for local trailblazers. Despite the seeming lack of activity, one big name may be poised to make a big splash downtown -- Wal-Mart.

Of course the retail giant won't release any information until contracts are finished, though we've already reported on strong rumors that an urban-designed Wal-Mart store is being planned for eastern downtown in an area previously a potential site for a baseball stadium.

<end clip


This seems to all be part of the new Wal Mart game plan.....



"No Square Block Left Behind"



[}:)]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: brunoflipper on May 21, 2007, 06:49:11 am
quote:
Originally posted by Rico

^

[}:)]

In a completely unrelated story..... It would seem Downtown Tulsa will be keeping pace with suberbia.....

In a story in today's business section of "The World" a story entitled "Downtown deceptively Dead"



>clip

Anyone who has a fun, accessible idea can succeed in downtown, be there neighbors or not. And the first trailblazers there can set the tone for the rest of the area.

In fact, time may be running out for local trailblazers. Despite the seeming lack of activity, one big name may be poised to make a big splash downtown -- Wal-Mart.

Of course the retail giant won't release any information until contracts are finished, though we've already reported on strong rumors that an urban-designed Wal-Mart store is being planned for eastern downtown in an area previously a potential site for a baseball stadium.

<end clip


This seems to all be part of the new Wal Mart game plan.....



"No Square Block Left Behind"



[}:)]


since i can only see the e-tulsaworld (which is extra crap-tastic now with its bull**** menus and absence of a daily navigation) i may be mistaken, but is that an op/ed piece in the business section?


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: sgrizzle on May 21, 2007, 07:11:02 am
It is.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on May 21, 2007, 07:43:44 am
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

It is.




I sincerely hope it is nothing other than an opinion.....!

[:(]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 21, 2007, 11:19:21 am
One reason Wal-Mart can move into an area that local business can not is because Wal-Mart is an anchor retailer.  One that people come from a certain area to shop at.  Other retailers, restaurants, and businesses set up near anchors to leach some customers or at least have some eyeballs on their sign.

If a smaller operation were to open selling anything short of 5 dollar bills for $2.50, most people wouldn't even know it was there for a long, long while.

Again, I'd prefer a cluster of little shops in the existing buildings (where there are existing buildings), but I'll take the plain Jane girl over no girl at all.


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: USRufnex on May 22, 2007, 10:29:30 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Rico

I sincerely hope it is nothing other than an opinion.....!

[:(]



hmmm... "And commercial real estate brokers have whispered that the deal is very, very likely to happen."

Seems odd that the TW would say this with Mitch Adwon as the lead Tulsa guy for Global Development Partners...

Let's see... DESCO from St Louis was going to redevelop all 115 acres of the East Village-- that fell through... then in Nov/Dec 2005 came the plans for 60 acres of the East Village, including a 20 acre plot for a soccer stadium, 40 acres for mixed use/residential by Global Development for a new MLS team that Global would have effectively been landlords of... then Jan. 2006, after Major League Soccer, Anschutz Entertainment Group and Phil Anschutz figured out that Global's purchase of DC United and stadium proposals didn't match their balance sheets; Global's DC United deal fell through and Tulsa's proposed soccer stadium became a ballpark... not sure if it was necessarily in Global's interest to do the ballpark...

Seems odd that the previous mayor seemed committed to try to make this work.... yet this mayor seems to keep a hands-off policy, admiring it from afar?...

Global's plans would require a TIF district... would WalMart's require one???

Favorite quote from TW...

"The time for sitting around and fretting is over. Developers and entrepreneurs who really want to change downtown need to act now. Otherwise, someone else will take the opportunity."


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: Rico on May 22, 2007, 10:54:55 pm
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:
Originally posted by Rico

I sincerely hope it is nothing other than an opinion.....!

[:(]



hmmm... "And commercial real estate brokers have whispered that the deal is very, very likely to happen."

Seems odd that the TW would say this with Mitch Adwon as the lead Tulsa guy for Global Development Partners...

Let's see... DESCO from St Louis was going to redevelop all 115 acres of the East Village-- that fell through... then in Nov/Dec 2005 came the plans for 60 acres of the East Village, including a 20 acre plot for a soccer stadium, 40 acres for mixed use/residential by Global Development for a new MLS team that Global would have effectively been landlords of... then Jan. 2006, after Major League Soccer, Anschutz Entertainment Group and Phil Anschutz figured out that Global's purchase of DC United and stadium proposals didn't match their balance sheets; Global's DC United deal fell through and Tulsa's proposed soccer stadium became a ballpark... not sure if it was necessarily in Global's interest to do the ballpark...

Seems odd that the previous mayor seemed committed to try to make this work.... yet this mayor seems to keep a hands-off policy, admiring it from afar?...

Global's plans would require a TIF district... would WalMart's require one???

Favorite quote from TW...

"The time for sitting around and fretting is over. Developers and entrepreneurs who really want to change downtown need to act now. Otherwise, someone else will take the opportunity."




To tell the truth at this point I wouldn't care if it were to turn out to be a Rugby sp? field...

Just keep the Big Blue plague out of here..

I had the opportunity to meet Mrs. Siegfried prior to her husbands death.. If I thought it would not be in incredible poor taste I would ask for her help....

by the way you were not even close as to where I lived many moons ago.[}:)]


Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: jdb on May 23, 2007, 08:41:53 am
"Let's see... DESCO..." - USR

But nay, before that did cometh AECOM. And unto to the hiway they did return.

Am resigned to a National Retailer popping up in the hood - somewhere, at sometime - but have no faith it'll jump start the area on any sustainable level.

Nor will it spin off a hip, walkable environ.
Particularly if the focus is on the facade of the place. The real deal is parking.

WM's not going to cave to a list of demands - but they will conceed one or two items to cast a good neighbor image.

Push for "parking in the rear" or risk losing the walkable notion. And by push, I mean the people at TDA.

People attending the TU vs. OU drive right into homeowners yards, slam it in park and leap out running for the gate.

IOW's, no one drives to an event or a store for the parking lot. They go for what's inside.



Title: "Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....
Post by: sauerkraut on May 23, 2007, 09:08:16 am
I do favor a Wal-Mart going in. I'm a big shopper of Wal-Mart. I like to see the freemarket place in action- Stores that can't hack it have to go into another line of work. I like to have as much money in my pocket as I can... Funny how no one sez diddley when a super box store like Target or Home Depot goes up, but when a Wal-Mart goes up everyone gets up in arms over it.[:P]